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Fair Trades: Are they really?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by lehayes, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    I appologize for being absent a couple days. . Soggy, you told me bluntly that you are responsible for this "fair trade" movement. . Now, you've said what you feel is proof. . Please stop continuing to espouse this rhetoric and nothing to support your claims and give me the respect respond to these people in My created thread. . Another reply to a Question directed toward this thread and not you directly will result in you being reported as abusing your privileges here. That being said:
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    While I understand your sentiment, I put out a challenge. . Please enjoy the read, but Quit what you are Doing comments are not welcome here. . I wish to hear and respond to all comers.
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    Solution, more tnhan normal necessity is/should be in the hands of the mages. . Report to the Arch Mage and let him monitor to warn and expel abusers.
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    Honestly, I had two issues, first was no space (research slow down) and someone showed me the space/value argument, second was AWs I wanted. . For two weeks I traded for my small amounts of T1 goods with T2 because I deleted my T1 Manuf and added the AW. . I quickly learned that that is an endless pit and began rebuilding ASAP. . I still don't have them back and I'm not planning on more housing until Dwarves.
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    After replying to the same post, I was wrong. Tell Soggy to leave the thread as much as you want. See, just sit back and Watch, Soggy; You might learn something.
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    For this you've been reported.
     
  2. Karvest

    Karvest Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Stop editing your posts! Please follow common forum practices. If you have something new to say - post it in the new message. No one expects new questions appeared in the post that is already answered. I wouldn't look back through your threads anymore.
    Trader is here for players to exchange their boosted goods. If that exchange is with equal amounts within same tier - it is valuable for both players participating in it and no one is feeding another one. Good FS should have all goods production balanced between it's members, so that nobody would be low on any good without such a mess like you suggest:
    That is completely wrong!
    Boosted :crystal: player POSTS: (Offer: 400 :crystal: • Demand: 400 :silk:)
    Boosted :silk: player TAKES this offer.
    BOTH of them have equal profit.
    While in your case there would be some 3d player, that would take both offers and get 1200 of both goods for free.
     
    EdwardTrunk and SoggyShorts like this.
  3. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
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    I applaud you for giving Soggy Props. But, I feel that, while those links got implemented, they do not advance his case to devalue our currency.
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    I believe I've replied about two of them, maybe three, if not i'll get to the last one. But from the first two, you are not in the running for my Gems.
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    What the rest of the world can't seem to get into your mind is: The cost of Making Money, is irrelevant. You must make the goods and they have a fixed and consistent value to one another regardless of all other factors. Maybe, look at it this way:
    You have nothing you beg borrow and steal to buy this factory. You start production ASAP. You're making little things that aren't worth much. But ,you can sell it for what you need. You're making enough after a year that you can make a second. With the two, you make 2 more factories the next year. Then your making a while and you;ve got a surplus...
    Now don't tell me you didn't build enough BT1 (boosted T1) Manuf's to have a surplus...
    Then you get another Idea. You take all those surplus goods to market and buy a different Factory that builds better goods. Do you see where I'm going?
    I think you do.
    Ok, so you've got these Three types of factories. The world values them one way and you tell the world that's not "FAIR" I use less space/resources/KP/whatever to make these factories to make my expensive goods factories as my cheap goods factories, It's not Fair!
    Guess what the world's going to say?
    Do you see how the value of the goods you've produced has nothing to do with the cost of creating the Manufactories it takes to make them?
    That's just the cost/space/anything it takes to build it. What it produces is a fixed value of your goods?
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  4. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
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    Communication is tricky. Let's look at this deeper (below).
    :crystal: player offers 400 :crystal: for 1600 :silk:
    :crystal: player -400 :crystal:, + 1600 :silk:, (accepting counter offer): +400 :silk:, - 1600 :crystal:
    :silk: player offers 400 :silk:, the proper counter offer: equal value to 400 :crystal: in (preferably) the good the original trader asking desires. . Though any good of equal value to the original "offer" will do in a pinch.
    :silk: player +400 :crystal:, -1600 :silk:, 2nd offer: -400 :silk:, +1600 :crystal:
    both players 2000.Good 2000 Goods, with trades no one else would accept. what's not 1:1?
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    The beauty is, to help a fellow up, just don't offer the responsive trades. And should anyone ever short you. Never trade with them; and in my case the Righteous Traders Guild, if it's a fellow or higher, report them to me for discipline. . I have 2 players, they run the Guild.
    The best advice I can give is: Drop the Dead Weight and look for non Jaded players. But I fear, if Soggy has his way no one will be unaffected by his lies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  5. Karvest

    Karvest Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    That's not the cost of creating, but cost of upkeeping. And if that cost is bigger than income from selling production - prices go up in real world.
    And it actually goes up in elvenar too, since no one accepts 1:4:16 trades if he can do math.
     
    SoggyShorts likes this.
  6. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Good on ya,
    Heymrdiedier
     
  7. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    I disagree. 4:1 is the monetary relationship. It takes nothing into account, it's what your given to use.
    fellowships, as I see them, are to improve each other.
    nothing else matters.

    How can you justify anything else? All I've heard is complaining. If you can't do better at proofs, this is over before it starts.
     
  8. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
  9. RandomNo.

    RandomNo. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2018
    I have one question

    Is anyone forced to make trades they don't want in the current system? If everyone has free choice, why are we even having this debate here?
     
  10. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Same reason as always: people who don't understand get mad if you don't take their terrible unfair trades.
    Lehayes and I were actually discussing the possibility of her/him joining my FS when the subject came up.
    On US forums this week a player and I figured out we would not be a good fit because they require cross-tier trades to function.

    Also, many of us are annoyed by having to sift through pages and pages of crap trades.
     
    maxiqbert likes this.
  11. maxiqbert

    maxiqbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    if you hear complaining when there is explanation, I know why you don't understand our points
    All i read is you complaining, because you clearly don't understand.
     
  12. Karvest

    Karvest Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    This is not beauty, this is just decline of neighbor trading and forcing FS members to post mirror trades / waste time on waiting for other members to take that mirror trades instead of just picking what they need and posting new ones if they need more than already on the market.
    + there will be issues with tracking of symmetry of these trades, leading to dissension in the FS...
     
    maxiqbert and SoggyShorts like this.
  13. Soleil

    Soleil Guest

    This is kind of hard to follow the discussion but I’m going to try and participate in this.

    1. I feel cross trades are more for high chapter players to help out lower chapter players.
    2. Not for people who have destroyed their kingdoms by having only 1 high level manufactory to produce stuff just for sentient goods
    3. If high chapter players kept multiple of their boosted goods manufactory at different levels and not maxed out and made tier 1 boosted goods along with their sentient goods, over time they would have a large inventory. (as well as have more stuff to do in their city)


    The problem
    1. Most people think max everything

    If a high chapter player offered a trade of 800 marble for 50 elixir so that I could build my first ancient wonder, I’d be so forever grateful. Instead of me having to trade my planks that I need to get more marble. Heck even if high chapter players put up crappy cross tier trades of 400 marble for 50 elixir I'd still take it! maybe take it even if it's worse than that. Just so I don't have to use up my planks.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2019
  14. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    1. Yep, and this happens in fellowships all the time.
    2. Agreed.
    3. They do. Sentient goods are made in entirely different buildings. Players do not stop producing tier one goods once they reach sentient goods.
     
  15. Soleil

    Soleil Guest

    While I have never played around with sentient goods, I think I understand how they work. I think…
    If your boosted Tier 1 is planks, then you need marble to produce moonstone in a marble manufactory.

    @SoggyShorts Do you just use the planks you produce to trade for the marble you need? And do you use your marble manufactory to supplement your marble needs? What happens in future chapters if you need tons of planks again?

    I ask this because you mentioned sifting through crap trades, maybe if high chapters started posting cross trades those crappy lower chapter trades wouldn’t be in the trader window. Now that I think of this, I think I’ll start posting cross trades.
     
  16. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    My boosts are planks silk and gems.
    In Chapter 12 13 + 14 I gained the boosts moonstone, obsidian, and soap.
    Those are made in a marble, Crystal, and elixir.
    I never ever produce marble in my marble factory only moonstone. My marble factory would make 1000 marble compared to my plank factory that makes 9000 planks.
    Same for my tier 5 and 6.
     
    Golden Awaken likes this.
  17. Mykan

    Mykan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Some things from your post have me concerned that your don't understand sentient or boosted goods. Sentient goods are just another factory you can make boosted goods from. While you can make normal or sentient from all of your factories you are best to only make normal goods from the factory of your normal boost and sentient goods from its matching factory. The sentient goods decay into normal goods so doesn't really hurt production of normal goods as over time you get them anyway. Building sentient factories shouldn't cause a person to need to do cross tier trades, the reason people do this is different.

    With boosted goods the whole point is to over-produce these and trade them for the goods your not boosted in (whether sentient or normal goods), its how the whole trading aspect works. So the point is your suppose to build 800 planks to trade for that marble or with sentient if planks is boost use that to provide all other tier 1 goods which includes sentient factory needs. I am unsure you could produce enough of each good without using the power of boosted goods and trading.

    Maxing buildings out has no impact on cross-tier trading. There is a train of thought (and some maths) that suggest the most efficient factory is a much lower level, but then you need significantly more factory space to produce an equivalent amount of goods. Despite seen several players support this approach I have never yet seen a town that follows it. Maxing out a building size lets you keep the factory footprint incredibly small (40squares per T1-3) while still producing tons of goods.

    But all of this is more about strategy then cross-tier trading. Cross tier trading is more about
    1. players helping each other - if this was the only trades I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. More often you get 0/1 star trades same tier than cross tier
    2. Human players in early chapters accessing T3 goods to upgrade houses - their superior houses need T3 goods to upgrade before they have the T3 tech. Again seriously doubt anyone would care about these trades, plus they trade "up" not "down".
    3. Players building only T3 factories and trading down for their other goods - A lot of people get upset by this and it can smash the resources in a fellowship/neighbourhood
    4. Players building more T3 than they need and trading down to support level of tournament catering
    5. Players caught short and desperately wanting a resource for a tech/building - also not common and usually short term, doubt too many people caree about these. These trades could be up or down.
    While the ratio of trade is contentious for the more sporadic trading points above i on't think most people would care as much due to infrequent use or assistance. The bulk of the problem (from my perspective) lies around the people in point 3/4 above as they are relying on this as a regular trading need. It floods the trader and the trades sit there for ages, making it hard to find what you do want/need. It also then brings the ratio discussion into focus as it can drain a fellowship of goods just trying to support 1 person. Hence many fellowships ban or place rules around this type of behaviour.
     
    PrimroseSylvia and SoggyShorts like this.
  18. Soleil

    Soleil Guest

    @Mykan thank you for your post and explanation.


    What I’m basing my info on is my wee city. I’m preparing to build 2 wonders and soon to start my trek to chapter 3. I’m somewhat close to having the shards to build it. It’s a large amount of marble and steel. 5270 Marble/4900 steel and 1690 planks. The encounters, while I can battle most, there are still ones that I know I can’t beat or lose more units that I really want to and will need to cater with goods.

    The amount of marble and steel one needs trading tier 1 to tier 1 to build a wonder is a lot of planks to try and trade for, (10,170 ) and I don’t have a max boost, therefore I used a few 3-star cross trades of scrolls that I don’t need right now to build up the marble and steel. I now have enough planks to build it, still short on both marble and steel. I can use my planks to trade for the rest as I finish my research but because of the few cross-trades, it saved a tremendous amount of time. I didn’t need to add a bunch of plank factories to my city because of cross trades.

    Previously, chapters 1 – 5 were extremely marble/steel and planks heavy. I don’t know if they changed this. The majority of my encounters were tier 1 goods not a combination of tier 1 and 2.

    My only point with a high chapter level player and cross trades if they had extra of their tier 1 goods laying around cross trades are awesome! When I’m higher in chapters and I can afford cross trades, I will help every little player I can with planks and cross trade for things that I may need like silk and crystals. I’m totally sold on cross trades.

    But I should reiterate, I put up 3 star cross trades, not some crappy 1 or even 2 star trade. I’m the one who needs the items and it’s a different type of trade people need to get used to. I wouldn’t blame someone for not taking anything less. If it weren’t for this thread, I wouldn’t have understood the value of them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2019
  19. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    @Soleil no one really cares if a chapter two city posts cross-tier trades, they are pretty tiny and it doesn't hurt to help them out.
    The problem comes later when the default ratio allows a chapter 5 city to drain a chapter 14 city dry with 2 star trades. Of course if you get addicted to using cross tier trades early on you may find frustration in later chapters when players start refusing your larger trades.

    Mykans point 4 above is a big one where many players will build four of each boosted factory for example, but the chapters they are in require far more tier 1 than anything else and a 6-3-2 build would be much more appropriate.

    Side tip: double check that Golden Abyss before you build it--is it really better than a normal house? I bet the pop per square is actually much worse and that won't change for a few chapters.
     
    Mykan and Loki Blue like this.
  20. Lovec Krys

    Lovec Krys Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    @SoggyShorts But depending on his city and play efficiency, he may need it to put KP there when stuck (although probably not).
     

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