Fair Trades: Are they really?

[DeletedUser2579]

I appologize for being absent a couple days. . Soggy, you told me bluntly that you are responsible for this "fair trade" movement. . Now, you've said what you feel is proof. . Please stop continuing to espouse this rhetoric and nothing to support your claims and give me the respect respond to these people in My created thread. . Another reply to a Question directed toward this thread and not you directly will result in you being reported as abusing your privileges here. That being said:
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Here we go again. I’m getting sick and tired of this discussion. Go play Elvenar, or post a good idea and the topic that’s meant for that. Or just go and play another game.

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While I understand your sentiment, I put out a challenge. . Please enjoy the read, but Quit what you are Doing comments are not welcome here. . I wish to hear and respond to all comers.
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The issue we had in our fellowship in a live city was that two new players determined that the only things that they were going to produce were T3 goods. They tore down all of their manufactories, other than boosted T3. After a short while anything that anyone in the fs posted was like 64,000 marble for 4000 dust, 128,000 steel for 8k dust. We were all smaller at that point and it was nearly impossible to trade for anything we needed. Our fellowship now does not allow for T3 - T1 trades, other than in critical situations arranged in chat.

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Solution, more tnhan normal necessity is/should be in the hands of the mages. . Report to the Arch Mage and let him monitor to warn and expel abusers.
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Honestly, I had two issues, first was no space (research slow down) and someone showed me the space/value argument, second was AWs I wanted. . For two weeks I traded for my small amounts of T1 goods with T2 because I deleted my T1 Manuf and added the AW. . I quickly learned that that is an endless pit and began rebuilding ASAP. . I still don't have them back and I'm not planning on more housing until Dwarves.
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This subject will keep coming up as long as new players join Elvenar and inno doesn't fix the "fair trade" 2-star system.
Inno based the ratio off of just the supplies needed to start a production in a factory.
They did not think about the fact that you can only fit about 5 T1 production chains(factories+workshops+culture+roads) in the space of 1 T3 production chain
Hence the 5:1 ratio is actually fair, and 16:1 is totally unfair.

Despite having explained this many times on 3 servers, there will always be new players who come and either realize it themselves or need to have it explained so that they know why no one can afford to give them 160,000 planks for 10K gems.
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This subject will keep coming up as long as new players join Elvenar

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No, it will never stop as long as you participate in those Forum discussions.
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inno doesn't fix the "fair trade" 2-star system.

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Inno will never devalue their goods, so quit trying to cheat everyone and calling it "Fair Trades". Tyrant! . That is the definition.
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Inno based the ratio off of just the supplies needed to start a production in a factory.
They did not think about the fact that you can only fit about 5 T1 production chains(factories+workshops+culture+roads) in the space of 1 T3 production chain
Hence the 5:1 ratio is actually fair, and 16:1 is totally unfair.

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All that this is doing, is confusing the true issue at hand. You want to "devalue the dollar", making Tyrants the only victors. Again please read, enjoy. . But, do not comment unless you are talking to me only here, in this thread or replying to a post directed at you explicitly.

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Like I said:
Go play Elvenar or post a good idea at the topic that’s meant for that. Or go and play another game. I’ve been reading much about this, but it’s only complaining and saying the same stuff over and over again. This doesn’t help for a bit. So work out a great idea, post it, and let us vote for it, so it will actually go to the developers.

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After replying to the same post, I was wrong. Tell Soggy to leave the thread as much as you want. See, just sit back and Watch, Soggy; You might learn something.
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I'm sorry, but IMO your posts in this thread are the only useless ones.

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For this you've been reported.

 

[Karvest]

Stop editing your posts! Please follow common forum practices. If you have something new to say - post it in the new message. No one expects new questions appeared in the post that is already answered. I wouldn't look back through your threads anymore.

OK .Karvest, since you disagree: Let's get to it.
You also said:

Even "fair" crosstrades with 1:2:5 ratio are not welcomed, it is not hard to build balanced city that doesn't force your fellows to fulfill your disbalance via making their own city unbalanced in the opposite way to yours...

You realize this proves that your Fellowship model says: "Do it all yourself if you join us."
Also it says, I want you to work for my city only. . That's right, just keep feeding me. . I'll get your true value, you get what 'I' deem appropriate.

Trader is here for players to exchange their boosted goods. If that exchange is with equal amounts within same tier - it is valuable for both players participating in it and no one is feeding another one. Good FS should have all goods production balanced between it's members, so that nobody would be low on any good without such a mess like you suggest:

1:4 trades are more safe and efficient way to trade:
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 400 • Demand: 1600 ),
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 400 • Demand: 1600 ).
Both players making 1:4 trades to make it 1:1 trading.

That is completely wrong!
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 400 • Demand: 400 )
Boosted player TAKES this offer.
BOTH of them have equal profit.
While in your case there would be some 3d player, that would take both offers and get 1200 of both goods for free.

 

[DeletedUser2579]

This discussion has been going on for months (actually years) now. When you’re hungry, are you going to complain about it until you’re dead? Or are you going to get some food?
What I’m trying to say with this is that you can continue to complain about it untill Elvenar doesn’t even exist anymore or just stop complaining and try to change it. The links you’re giving above is the way to get things changed.

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I applaud you for giving Soggy Props. But, I feel that, while those links got implemented, they do not advance his case to devalue our currency.
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@lehayes
Have you read anything on the subject yet? I gave you some links, and you said you had an open mind and would read them, but I don't think you have.

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I believe I've replied about two of them, maybe three, if not i'll get to the last one. But from the first two, you are not in the running for my Gems.
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Here is a simple explanation:
making 1,000 gems costs 16,000 supplies
making 1,000 planks costs 1,000 supplies
So inno said that the fair trade is 16:1
makes sense, right?

Here's what inno forgot:
Making 1,000 gems takes 3 hours
Making 16,000 planks takes 9 hours
That's not fair, is it?

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What the rest of the world can't seem to get into your mind is: The cost of Making Money, is irrelevant. You must make the goods and they have a fixed and consistent value to one another regardless of all other factors. Maybe, look at it this way:
You have nothing you beg borrow and steal to buy this factory. You start production ASAP. You're making little things that aren't worth much. But ,you can sell it for what you need. You're making enough after a year that you can make a second. With the two, you make 2 more factories the next year. Then your making a while and you;ve got a surplus...
Now don't tell me you didn't build enough BT1 (boosted T1) Manuf's to have a surplus...
Then you get another Idea. You take all those surplus goods to market and buy a different Factory that builds better goods. Do you see where I'm going?
I think you do.
Ok, so you've got these Three types of factories. The world values them one way and you tell the world that's not "FAIR" I use less space/resources/KP/whatever to make these factories to make my expensive goods factories as my cheap goods factories, It's not Fair!
Guess what the world's going to say?
Do you see how the value of the goods you've produced has nothing to do with the cost of creating the Manufactories it takes to make them?
That's just the cost/space/anything it takes to build it. What it produces is a fixed value of your goods?
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The issue we had in our fellowship in a live city was that two new players determined that the only things that they were going to produce were T3 goods. They tore down all of their manufactories, other than boosted T3. After a short while anything that anyone in the fs posted was like 64,000 marble for 4000 dust, 128,000 steel for 8k dust. We were all smaller at that point and it was nearly impossible to trade for anything we needed. Our fellowship now does not allow for T3 - T1 trades, other than in critical situations arranged in chat.

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@lehayes The fact that people are doing the above already suggests that current cross tier rates are NOT FAIR. Because why would anyone build 100% T3 other than because they know they can get by easier at the expense of other people's effort? I never take cross tier trades at Inno's rates, even if I have enough goods to spare. What goes thru my mind is, if you were to post at equitable rates I'd have taken them but meh just too bad. If you are a fan of 16:4:1 trades, there are plenty out there which I'm sure you will be happy to accept.

Also, my other beef though not exactly in the same vein as the main topic here, is FS who say "we are all fair traders, post 2 or 3 stars only, :-DDD" That's total nonsense. 2 star is fair yes. But why is 3 star fair when someone gets more than the other in the trade? Me posting 4000 planks for 1000 marble (3 star, yaayyyy I'm so generous, everybody wants me in their FS) is exactly as fair as you posting 1000 marble for 4000 planks (0 star, booooo you cheapo, everyone throw rotten eggs at him now).

If you have no issues with people posting 3 star, especially if you ask for or grab them when you see it, then don't be a hypocrite and diss those posting 1 or 0 lol.

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The fact that people are doing the above already suggests that current cross tier rates are NOT FAIR.

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I don't believe you have a grasp of the situation. They're doing it to get ahead by not contributing. Remember CLOSED economic system Means no one can print money. As in Barter.
The abusers, wanting to only produce Level 3 goods, will be kicked. Warned: you're abusing the Fellowship by not producing from as many T1s and T2 Manufactories as you are T3, Fix it or else. Soon there will be none of that. It falls to the Archmage to police his fellowship and Kick/Expel Abusers.

Thanks for the Clarification, that makes the rest simple.
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[DeletedUser2579]

That is completely wrong!
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 400 • Demand: 400 )
Boosted player TAKES this offer.
BOTH of them have equal profit.
While in your case there would be some 3d player, that would take both offers and get 1200 of both goods for free.

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Communication is tricky. Let's look at this deeper (below).
player offers 400 for 1600
player -400 , + 1600 , (accepting counter offer): +400 , - 1600
player offers 400 , the proper counter offer: equal value to 400 in (preferably) the good the original trader asking desires. . Though any good of equal value to the original "offer" will do in a pinch.
player +400 , -1600 , 2nd offer: -400 , +1600
both players 2000.Good 2000 Goods, with trades no one else would accept. what's not 1:1?

Details:. All internal trades shall be 2 Star or 1:4 safe trades.
1:4 trades are more safe and efficient way to trade:
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 400 • Demand: 1600 ),
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 400 • Demand: 1600 ).
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Here we have a 1:1 trade using the 1:4 (not the 4:1) everyone uses. Their done trading.
Both players making 1:4 trades to make it 1:1 trading. . These are also (Below are trades the player could of asked for instead.):
option 1:
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 100 • Demand: 400 ),
. . . . . . . . . . . . .(Offer: 100 • Demand: 400 ), because (s)he's a Player.
. . . . . . . . . . . . .(Offer: 100 • Demand: 25 ),
. . . . . . . . . . . . .(Offer: 100 • Demand: 25 ), because (s)he's a Player.
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option 2:
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 400 • Demand: 100 ), not a player,
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option 3:
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 400 • Demand: 1600 ).

option 4:
What I don't know if the game will do (I haven't tried):
Boosted player POSTS: (Offer: 100 • Demand: 1600 ). again, I don't know if that ratio exists/is allowed.
But, yes, even this, all because the trade(s) are governed by the first offer..

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The beauty is, to help a fellow up, just don't offer the responsive trades. And should anyone ever short you. Never trade with them; and in my case the Righteous Traders Guild, if it's a fellow or higher, report them to me for discipline. . I have 2 players, they run the Guild.
The best advice I can give is: Drop the Dead Weight and look for non Jaded players. But I fear, if Soggy has his way no one will be unaffected by his lies.

 

[Karvest]

Do you see how the value of the goods you've produced has nothing to do with the cost of creating the Manufactories it takes to make them?

That's not the cost of creating, but cost of upkeeping. And if that cost is bigger than income from selling production - prices go up in real world.
And it actually goes up in elvenar too, since no one accepts 1:4:16 trades if he can do math.

 

[DeletedUser2579]

this is all basic econmy?

how much is my house worth? as much as someone is willing to pay for it. We have real estate brokers who estimate the prizes. but that doesnt mean anything, nor does the rating 2 star mean anything. you put something up; if it doesnt get sold, then you try a little cheaper, and so on.
thats how capitalisme works

Good on ya,
Heymrdiedier

 

[DeletedUser2579]

fair trade isn't a real thing,
because as shown in many examples, 4 to 1 or 16 to 1 only takes gold and supplies into account which aren't the only "cost" to build things.
Is another ratio more fair?
no, because if I'm using the wholesaler to get the t1 or t2 in quantities, and then trade for t3 that i couldn't buy with the wholesaler. So we're back to the gold and supplies cost... mmmm


I prefer taking 1000 marble for 4000 planks than 1000 gems for the same 4000 planks, With the marble deal, both parties know i'm getting ripped off, while with the gems deal, i'm getting ripped off too, but it's not obvious for everyone.
Anything to do with fair trade? no, just a way of thinking.
I'd rather be sure there are enough T1 T2 and T3 being manufactured in my FS, and thus I frown upon crosstrade.

I disagree. 4:1 is the monetary relationship. It takes nothing into account, it's what your given to use.
fellowships, as I see them, are to improve each other.
nothing else matters.

How can you justify anything else? All I've heard is complaining. If you can't do better at proofs, this is over before it starts.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Proof:
This city is making 1,550 Elixir
https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/fe39a79f43804b3aa28c5a46b599afeb/

1,550 x 16 = 24,800

This city is making 24,864 planks
https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/6f103231b11d47e0ac07c2d1dff4192a/

What do you think? Fair to trade 1,550 elixirs for 24,800 planks?

 

[DeletedUser2632]

I have one question

Is anyone forced to make trades they don't want in the current system? If everyone has free choice, why are we even having this debate here?

 

[SoggyShorts]

If everyone has free choice, why are we even having this debate here?

Same reason as always: people who don't understand get mad if you don't take their terrible unfair trades.
Lehayes and I were actually discussing the possibility of her/him joining my FS when the subject came up.
On US forums this week a player and I figured out we would not be a good fit because they require cross-tier trades to function.

Also, many of us are annoyed by having to sift through pages and pages of crap trades.

 

[maxiqbert]

I disagree. 4:1 is the monetary relationship. It takes nothing into account, it's what your given to use.
fellowships, as I see them, are to improve each other.
nothing else matters.

How can you justify anything else? All I've heard is complaining. If you can't do better at proofs, this is over before it starts.

if you hear complaining when there is explanation, I know why you don't understand our points
All i read is you complaining, because you clearly don't understand.

 

[Karvest]

The beauty is, to help a fellow up, just don't offer the responsive trades.

This is not beauty, this is just decline of neighbor trading and forcing FS members to post mirror trades / waste time on waiting for other members to take that mirror trades instead of just picking what they need and posting new ones if they need more than already on the market.
+ there will be issues with tracking of symmetry of these trades, leading to dissension in the FS...

 

[DeletedUser]

This is kind of hard to follow the discussion but I’m going to try and participate in this.

1. I feel cross trades are more for high chapter players to help out lower chapter players.
2. Not for people who have destroyed their kingdoms by having only 1 high level manufactory to produce stuff just for sentient goods
3. If high chapter players kept multiple of their boosted goods manufactory at different levels and not maxed out and made tier 1 boosted goods along with their sentient goods, over time they would have a large inventory. (as well as have more stuff to do in their city)


The problem
1. Most people think max everything

If a high chapter player offered a trade of 800 marble for 50 elixir so that I could build my first ancient wonder, I’d be so forever grateful. Instead of me having to trade my planks that I need to get more marble. Heck even if high chapter players put up crappy cross tier trades of 400 marble for 50 elixir I'd still take it! maybe take it even if it's worse than that. Just so I don't have to use up my planks.

 

[SoggyShorts]

1. Yep, and this happens in fellowships all the time.
2. Agreed.
3. They do. Sentient goods are made in entirely different buildings. Players do not stop producing tier one goods once they reach sentient goods.

 

[DeletedUser]

While I have never played around with sentient goods, I think I understand how they work. I think…
If your boosted Tier 1 is planks, then you need marble to produce moonstone in a marble manufactory.

@SoggyShorts Do you just use the planks you produce to trade for the marble you need? And do you use your marble manufactory to supplement your marble needs? What happens in future chapters if you need tons of planks again?

I ask this because you mentioned sifting through crap trades, maybe if high chapters started posting cross trades those crappy lower chapter trades wouldn’t be in the trader window. Now that I think of this, I think I’ll start posting cross trades.

 

[SoggyShorts]

My boosts are planks silk and gems.
In Chapter 12 13 + 14 I gained the boosts moonstone, obsidian, and soap.
Those are made in a marble, Crystal, and elixir.
I never ever produce marble in my marble factory only moonstone. My marble factory would make 1000 marble compared to my plank factory that makes 9000 planks.
Same for my tier 5 and 6.

 

[DeletedUser1657]

This is kind of hard to follow the discussion but I’m going to try and participate in this.

1. I feel cross trades are more for high chapter players to help out lower chapter players.
2. Not for people who have destroyed their kingdoms by having only 1 high level manufactory to produce stuff just for sentient goods
3. If high chapter players kept multiple of their boosted goods manufactory at different levels and not maxed out and made tier 1 boosted goods along with their sentient goods, over time they would have a large inventory. (as well as have more stuff to do in their city)


The problem
1. Most people think max everything

If a high chapter player offered a trade of 800 marble for 50 elixir so that I could build my first ancient wonder, I’d be so forever grateful. Instead of me having to trade my planks that I need to get more marble. Heck even if high chapter players put up crappy cross tier trades of 400 marble for 50 elixir I'd still take it! maybe take it even if it's worse than that. Just so I don't have to use up my planks.

Some things from your post have me concerned that your don't understand sentient or boosted goods. Sentient goods are just another factory you can make boosted goods from. While you can make normal or sentient from all of your factories you are best to only make normal goods from the factory of your normal boost and sentient goods from its matching factory. The sentient goods decay into normal goods so doesn't really hurt production of normal goods as over time you get them anyway. Building sentient factories shouldn't cause a person to need to do cross tier trades, the reason people do this is different.

With boosted goods the whole point is to over-produce these and trade them for the goods your not boosted in (whether sentient or normal goods), its how the whole trading aspect works. So the point is your suppose to build 800 planks to trade for that marble or with sentient if planks is boost use that to provide all other tier 1 goods which includes sentient factory needs. I am unsure you could produce enough of each good without using the power of boosted goods and trading.

Maxing buildings out has no impact on cross-tier trading. There is a train of thought (and some maths) that suggest the most efficient factory is a much lower level, but then you need significantly more factory space to produce an equivalent amount of goods. Despite seen several players support this approach I have never yet seen a town that follows it. Maxing out a building size lets you keep the factory footprint incredibly small (40squares per T1-3) while still producing tons of goods.

But all of this is more about strategy then cross-tier trading. Cross tier trading is more about

1. players helping each other - if this was the only trades I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. More often you get 0/1 star trades same tier than cross tier
2. Human players in early chapters accessing T3 goods to upgrade houses - their superior houses need T3 goods to upgrade before they have the T3 tech. Again seriously doubt anyone would care about these trades, plus they trade "up" not "down".
3. Players building only T3 factories and trading down for their other goods - A lot of people get upset by this and it can smash the resources in a fellowship/neighbourhood
4. Players building more T3 than they need and trading down to support level of tournament catering
5. Players caught short and desperately wanting a resource for a tech/building - also not common and usually short term, doubt too many people caree about these. These trades could be up or down.

While the ratio of trade is contentious for the more sporadic trading points above i on't think most people would care as much due to infrequent use or assistance. The bulk of the problem (from my perspective) lies around the people in point 3/4 above as they are relying on this as a regular trading need. It floods the trader and the trades sit there for ages, making it hard to find what you do want/need. It also then brings the ratio discussion into focus as it can drain a fellowship of goods just trying to support 1 person. Hence many fellowships ban or place rules around this type of behaviour.

 

[DeletedUser]

@Mykan thank you for your post and explanation.


What I’m basing my info on is my wee city. I’m preparing to build 2 wonders and soon to start my trek to chapter 3. I’m somewhat close to having the shards to build it. It’s a large amount of marble and steel. 5270 Marble/4900 steel and 1690 planks. The encounters, while I can battle most, there are still ones that I know I can’t beat or lose more units that I really want to and will need to cater with goods.

The amount of marble and steel one needs trading tier 1 to tier 1 to build a wonder is a lot of planks to try and trade for, (10,170 ) and I don’t have a max boost, therefore I used a few 3-star cross trades of scrolls that I don’t need right now to build up the marble and steel. I now have enough planks to build it, still short on both marble and steel. I can use my planks to trade for the rest as I finish my research but because of the few cross-trades, it saved a tremendous amount of time. I didn’t need to add a bunch of plank factories to my city because of cross trades.

Previously, chapters 1 – 5 were extremely marble/steel and planks heavy. I don’t know if they changed this. The majority of my encounters were tier 1 goods not a combination of tier 1 and 2.

My only point with a high chapter level player and cross trades if they had extra of their tier 1 goods laying around cross trades are awesome! When I’m higher in chapters and I can afford cross trades, I will help every little player I can with planks and cross trade for things that I may need like silk and crystals. I’m totally sold on cross trades.

But I should reiterate, I put up 3 star cross trades, not some crappy 1 or even 2 star trade. I’m the one who needs the items and it’s a different type of trade people need to get used to. I wouldn’t blame someone for not taking anything less. If it weren’t for this thread, I wouldn’t have understood the value of them.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Soleil no one really cares if a chapter two city posts cross-tier trades, they are pretty tiny and it doesn't hurt to help them out.
The problem comes later when the default ratio allows a chapter 5 city to drain a chapter 14 city dry with 2 star trades. Of course if you get addicted to using cross tier trades early on you may find frustration in later chapters when players start refusing your larger trades.

Mykans point 4 above is a big one where many players will build four of each boosted factory for example, but the chapters they are in require far more tier 1 than anything else and a 6-3-2 build would be much more appropriate.

Side tip: double check that Golden Abyss before you build it--is it really better than a normal house? I bet the pop per square is actually much worse and that won't change for a few chapters.

 

[Lovec Krys]

@SoggyShorts But depending on his city and play efficiency, he may need it to put KP there when stuck (although probably not).