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Fair Trades: Are they really?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by lehayes, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Firstly, I believe whatever value the game sets the goods at is a truly fair trade. The purpose of (I'm a phonetic speller, so of comes out even though I know it's: of; just in case I miss an edit.) this thread is to hear the other side in a clear and concise voice.
    .
    I live in a capitalistic society, so I have to ask; Do you really want someone to devalue your currency? That's what the tyrant has done, He's convinced you that it's fair to cheat your neighbor. The game has set up a stable economy The value of your currency is fixed. Just like there's 10 pennies in every dime and 10 dimes in every dollar, there's 4 planks in every crystal and 4 crystal in every Elixir. Now, along comes the tyrant and he lies and shows you how to be tyrants too. Probably, to make him/her-self feel justified in cheating his/her neighbor. So, do you really thint there should only be 4 pennies in your dimes, or 5 dimes in your dollar?

    Wake up players! . How to make safe, efficient and equitable trades:
    .
    Please try to remember this is closed unsupported socialism (only printed money is :diamond:). Government (the PTBs that we whine to daily) makes the rules that govern our cities; we have no choice. We're all given the same things to work with, humans and elves. . They may have different names, but they do the same things for the same price. Why are followers of this "Fair Trades" doing this? To line their own pockets at the expense of their players. Sound like anyone in Real World you know?

    Do you hang with their lot? I got a book on wisdom for you then...Proverbs
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  2. Karvest

    Karvest Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    You need way more city space to produce 16 planks than 1 elixir, if you start counting not only gold/supplies needed (which are the root of 1:4:16 ratio), but also space for population and culture required by manufactories.
     
    Angedev and CiraKelley like this.
  3. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Here is a city that makes 3875 Elixer per day. at 16:1 that is 62,000 planks.
    elixer vs planks 1.png
    elixer vs planks 2.png

    @lehayes
    Do you own testing. go to www.elvenarchitect.com, and make a city that only produces T3. Then make one with the same level of buildings (residences workshops and factories) that only makes T1.
     
  4. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Thank you Marindor,
    But this post was never about any individual of fellowship. But, it is about the accomplishments of an individual. And this post, though it mentioned the one specific individual that Claimed to be responsible. I apologize for naming him/her here.

    So the reason for the challenge below has also been deleted because it named the the person responsible: See the challenge below anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  5. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Challenge: Please, I take this challenge seriously. Should anyone proves that the value of Goods should be changed, I LEHayes, will trade then 4000 of their Tier-3 choice 16000 gems.

    I just came from an olde timers Fellowship As he explained one day he was bombarded with "trades aren't FAIR. Little did I know that there was going to ruin the game for him. He left and the kids took over (newer players to the game. then someone took offense at something t\hat was said on here. As you can see, I'm very opinionated and blunt, it could have been anything.

    So, with your father's guidance, I hope to administer a friendlier Alliance. Dedicated to Love of your Brothers and Sisters: Help, not Harm. The latter is easy. Forgiveness, that's hard.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  6. Karvest

    Karvest Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Please, learn to use quotes properly...
    As for "oppress your own people" - that's not true. You can post such trades, and they are sometimes picked up, especially if you ask to do it in chat and that happens in early chapters with enormous amounts of T1 needed for upgrades. But no one wants to take such trades on regularly basis and they are just polluting trader most of the times.
    Even "fair" crosstrades with 1:2:5 ratio are not welcomed, it is not hard to build balanced city that doesn't force your fellows to fulfill your disbalance via making their own city unbalanced in the opposite way to yours...
     
    Angeduciel and lehayes like this.
  7. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    OK .Karvest, since you disagree: Let's get to it. . You said:
    Assuming you meant:
    Which trades: "take such trades on regular basis", true or fair?

    Just to clarify for those Math challenged:
    16:4:1 trading: 4.0 :marble: :steel: or :plank: = 1 :silk: :crystal: or :scroll: AND, 4 :silk: :crystal: or :scroll: = 1 :elixir: :magicdust: or :gem:, true value
    .5:2:1 trading: 2.5 :marble: :steel: or :plank: = 1 :silk: :crystal: or :scroll: AND, 2 :silk: :crystal: or :scroll: = 1 :elixir: :magicdust: or :gem:, "Fair" value.
    Period (.) before 5 is for spacing only.

    You also said:
    You realize this proves that your Fellowship model says: "Do it all yourself if you join us."
    Also it says, I want you to work for my city only. . That's right, just keep feeding me. . I'll get your true value, you get what 'I' deem appropriate.

    What was that definition?

    * Just open the minimized Quote Response to read the definition of Oppression.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  8. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  9. lehayes

    lehayes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Deleted posts are a problem.

    You're right, ,SoggyShorts, I did say, "I have a fair and open mind.", in the deleted post, earlier in this thread.
    Today, with the seeming wave of tyranny, you might find a proving result in a properly formed poll. For this, we would need a World Wide Mail request to vote on the forum.

    But, what's the point? The question is: Would the rule Makers be willing to change the value of our goods, to make it 'truly fair' for everyone?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  10. Maillie

    Maillie Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2016
    The issue we had in our fellowship in a live city was that two new players determined that the only things that they were going to produce were T3 goods. They tore down all of their manufactories, other than boosted T3. After a short while anything that anyone in the fs posted was like 64,000 marble for 4000 dust, 128,000 steel for 8k dust. We were all smaller at that point and it was nearly impossible to trade for anything we needed. Our fellowship now does not allow for T3 - T1 trades, other than in critical situations arranged in chat.
     
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  11. Lars88

    Lars88 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Here we go again. I’m getting sick and tired of this discussion. Go play Elvenar, or post a good idea and the topic that’s meant for that. Or just go and play another game.
     
  12. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    This subject will keep coming up as long as new players join Elvenar and inno doesn't fix the "fair trade" 2-star system.
    Inno based the ratio off of just the supplies needed to start a production in a factory.
    They did not think about the fact that you can only fit about 5 T1 production chains(factories+workshops+culture+roads) in the space of 1 T3 production chain
    Hence the 5:1 ratio is actually fair, and 16:1 is totally unfair.

    Despite having explained this many times on 3 servers, there will always be new players who come and either realize it themselves or need to have it explained so that they know why no one can afford to give them 160,000 planks for 10K gems.
     
  13. Lars88

    Lars88 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Like I said:
    Go play Elvenar or post a good idea at the topic that’s meant for that. Or go and play another game. I’ve been reading much about this, but it’s only complaining and saying the same stuff over and over again. This doesn’t help for a bit. So work out a great idea, post it, and let us vote for it, so it will actually go to the developers.
     
  14. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    You are wrong.
    Helping players understand how the game works does matter. If everyone understands, then players will agree. If players agree, then devs will listen.
    Imagine I posted a perfect suggestion and a fix for how the trade ratio should be tweaked, and a player who doesn't understand the issue came into the suggestion thread and crapped all over it. Would the devs listen? Would you?
    Where do you think ideas come from? We are discussing a subject, and you are telling us to stop talking about it. That makes no sense at all.
    I've actually had some of my ideas forwarded to the devs and implemented, and not one of them was suggested to the devs without first talking about it with other players. Link1 Link2 Link3
    It was also in a discussion (and not an actual suggestion) about the tournament where I suggested making tournament provinces 4 encounters rather than 8.

    I'm sorry, but IMO your posts in this thread are the only useless ones.
     
    Loki Blue likes this.
  15. Lars88

    Lars88 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    This discussion has been going on for months (actually years) now. When you’re hungry, are you going to complain about it until you’re dead? Or are you going to get some food?
    What I’m trying to say with this is that you can continue to complain about it untill Elvenar doesn’t even exist anymore or just stop complaining and try to change it. The links you’re giving above is the way to get things changed.
     
  16. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Except I've tried that, and random ignorant people trashed the suggestion. Educating players and having a united front to present to the devs this time might work better.

    Feel free to take on the task of fixing the issue yourself, since you know what's best.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
    Loki Blue likes this.
  17. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    @lehayes
    Have you read anything on the subject yet? I gave you some links, and you said you had an open mind and would read them, but I don't think you have.

    Here is a simple explanation:
    making 1,000 gems costs 16,000 supplies
    making 1,000 planks costs 1,000 supplies
    So inno said that the fair trade is 16:1
    makes sense, right?

    Here's what inno forgot:
    Making 1,000 gems takes 3 hours
    Making 16,000 planks takes 9 hours
    That's not fair, is it?
     
  18. RandomNo.

    RandomNo. Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2018
    @lehayes The fact that people are doing the above already suggests that current cross tier rates are NOT FAIR. Because why would anyone build 100% T3 other than because they know they can get by easier at the expense of other people's effort? I never take cross tier trades at Inno's rates, even if I have enough goods to spare. What goes thru my mind is, if you were to post at equitable rates I'd have taken them but meh just too bad. If you are a fan of 16:4:1 trades, there are plenty out there which I'm sure you will be happy to accept.

    Also, my other beef though not exactly in the same vein as the main topic here, is FS who say "we are all fair traders, post 2 or 3 stars only, :-DDD" That's total nonsense. 2 star is fair yes. But why is 3 star fair when someone gets more than the other in the trade? Me posting 4000 planks for 1000 marble (3 star, yaayyyy I'm so generous, everybody wants me in their FS) is exactly as fair as you posting 1000 marble for 4000 planks (0 star, booooo you cheapo, everyone throw rotten eggs at him now).

    If you have no issues with people posting 3 star, especially if you ask for or grab them when you see it, then don't be a hypocrite and diss those posting 1 or 0 lol.
     
  19. Heymrdiedier

    Heymrdiedier Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016
    this is all basic econmy?

    how much is my house worth? as much as someone is willing to pay for it. We have real estate brokers who estimate the prizes. but that doesnt mean anything, nor does the rating 2 star mean anything. you put something up; if it doesnt get sold, then you try a little cheaper, and so on.
    thats how capitalisme works :p
     
  20. maxiqbert

    maxiqbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    fair trade isn't a real thing,
    because as shown in many examples, 4 to 1 or 16 to 1 only takes gold and supplies into account which aren't the only "cost" to build things.
    Is another ratio more fair?
    no, because if I'm using the wholesaler to get the t1 or t2 in quantities, and then trade for t3 that i couldn't buy with the wholesaler. So we're back to the gold and supplies cost... mmmm:rolleyes:


    I prefer taking 1000 marble for 4000 planks than 1000 gems for the same 4000 planks, With the marble deal, both parties know i'm getting ripped off, while with the gems deal, i'm getting ripped off too, but it's not obvious for everyone.
    Anything to do with fair trade? no, just a way of thinking.
    I'd rather be sure there are enough T1 T2 and T3 being manufactured in my FS, and thus I frown upon crosstrade.
     

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