[Discussion] The Solution: Player Movement

[DeletedUser1250]

I am very positive about this all. I will miss the gold mines, because I simply don't have time to visit all my neighbours and getting coins from gold mines was a good solution for me. I got moved today and there are some gold mines left. I think the trade is much more important though. I saw some very good offers in trade and was able to help some people who seemed pretty desperate, needing a huge amount of my goods.

Too bad my scout was lost. He got rescued but somehow succeeded in losing all the coins I gave him for scouting. A dead scout would have been worse, so I was happy to see him back home, he got punished though and had to leave immediatedly without getting a break.
Not going to complain about that, it made me laugh.

Rinaer, I agree with you. There has been a lot of complaining about no neighbours, about inactive neighbours. The gold mines were a good step and moving players is a huge step. Many have asked for this. I can see how complex this must be and of course it needs a lot of testing. Of course things will go wrong, but they need to do this and it is beta, so it is better it goes wrong here than in a live server. We know new things before the live server does, can play with it already and we have to accept sometimes things go wrong. I understand the world will be blocked during the movement and of course the developers need to be at work when they do this in case things go wrong. It is never funny when a world is blocked, but it is needed and seeing what I got after the movement I can only be happy and forget the short downtime very fast.

I think this all is great and I like to say THANK YOU to the Elvenar team for listening to all the complaints and for finding a solution.

 

[DeletedUser]

First of, you're not the only one playing this game. No one esle but you is playing in the tournaments in your region. That does not aply to everyone else, thought. So please consider others as well. (No, I don't play tounament. I'm too small on this server.)

Secondly, yes, this might be a test server but there are still people playing actively on it. Do you want to place your discontent about the situation over their interests?

Finaly, they've run a FIRST TEST on this. Which means they now need to evaluate, reevaluate, and maybe even correct some thing. This need TIME. So waiting until next week to move more people might actually be a GOOD thing.
I would rather have them do this RIGHT instead of RUSHED. And if they need some extra days - hell, even some extra weeks - for it? I say let them have them.

Sure you need to wait 6 days to execute new idea? You are brilliant! I don't really "play" beta. just login from time to time spend some kp and check new stuff... It would be total waist of time since i'm on chapter 1.
But this postponing the tests are affecting us IN REAL GAME WORLD...



How current idea is right if people report so many wrong movements... and you did get moved even if you didn't agree (turned off)...

now whole week of waiting... and you know they would need 2-3 months of proper coding to make it work? Smooth testing which means more testing to be done per week... and not delaying it because of some tournaments...

Another major fail by inno right from beginning... allowed people to spend cash on beta...
people shouldn't be able to purchase diamonds for real cash in testing areas...


So in conclusion i'll be 5 months without proper neighbors in real game? Don't get me on other things that affect us by postponing these tests...
Or...

The ONLY SOLUTION is to postpone/disable tournaments until neighborhood player movement is FIXED.

 

[DeletedUser1075]

The team is moving super fast on these tests, and the communication has been pretty good - it's there on the forum as needed and the in-game popup on login was hard to miss. I could whinge about losing 2+ days of a scout (and I have), but frankly if that's the worst that happens in return for a lot of potential gain, then this is still a huge success.

 

[DeletedUser607]

I am very positive about this all. I will miss the gold mines, because I simply don't have time to visit all my neighbours and getting coins from gold mines was a good solution for me. I got moved today and there are some gold mines left. I think the trade is much more important though. I saw some very good offers in trade and was able to help some people who seemed pretty desperate, needing a huge amount of my goods.

Yes, it's pretty hard to resist an offer like 500 gems vs 1000 scrolls (I currently have them stockpiled in my city... ~1000k, together with planks 1000k too (+400k on the market), and dust, 860k)

so let's supply this new and very thirsty market

 

[DeletedUser]

What I can't understand is why Inno consistently chooses solutions that are guaranteed to displease as many players as are pleased? It would be very easy to design solutions that please the majority. For example:

Gold Mines: had they left the amounts at full price, everyone would have been happy. We wouldn't have seen a single complaint. It would benefit the players who don't have time to visit, been a boon to players who do usually have / make the time to visit, and encouraged non-visitors to start the habit. And had they added a few supplies to the Mines, we'd have seen entire posts filled with 'Inno you're wonderful!"

Instead, as a matter of course, they chose a divisive and disrespectful option. People who formerly didn't have time to visit were given a new boost in coins. Players who did formerly visit were punished with a reduction in coins (the savings of time was irrelevant because they didn't want time, they wanted coins). Why did non-NH players deserve an increase? Why did consistent NH players deserve a reduction?

Player Move: Those of you who are inclined to laud Inno - please read the updates. This is a group of developers who apparently forgot to make the fundamental "IF" statement to disclude players who opted out. Please.

They've made a HUGE issue out of this neighborhood move. Without ever having explained why it's important to fix it in the first place. If this is as complicated as they indicate - requiring over a year of work or postponement, and days of tedious implementation - wasn't there a better solution? Why couldn't they instead find ways of providing us with the intended benefits of Neighborhood, but sans Neighborhoods?

We could all get excited about truly new developments. Fellowship alliances, perhaps, to extend trade and visits? Or, if that's too complicated from a programming standpoint, there are other options.

• For NH, rather than being limited by discovery, why not make a simple change in code to allow for X number of NH visits anywhere we like (with X increasing per age). That would allow us great flexibility to visit players at will. Or not.
• For traders, they could also change the calculation: we could trade with X number of players, beginning with those closest, with X increasing per age.

These types of coding changes aren't sweeping - they involve relatively simple coding re-writes, not extensive algorithm development - and they Don't mandate ongoing player moves that are bug-invitations. Nor do they take a year to implement. But, they require Inno to tacitly admit "oops, we need to do better".

What are we really gaining from this Player Move? I think that the players who aren't happy about the process are those who have concluded that, given the limited gain and the loss of better opportunities, any down time or loss of existing functionality simply isn't worth the paltry outcomes.

Where is the developer creativity, coding skill, and imagination? They could deliver more for less - on multiple levels. Take a look at any topic on this and other Forums: given the chance, we players could come to consensus on most issues in way that wouldn't seriously undermine the reasonable profitability of Elvenar. Most of our Forum dissent stems from Inno's inability?unwilingness? to utilize creative thinking to offer win/win scenarios to clients.

Neighborhoods by entry placement - this is a failed concept. It didn't work. They should have long ago cut their losses and delivered improved concepts to us. Instead we're seeing a bad idea becoming entrenched as a "fixed" bad idea that still leaves players with fundamental inequalities.

We aren't children aspiring to visit Mr. Rogers - we don't need Neighbors. We need trade. Coins. Supplies. Fighting partners. Delivered with equal opportunity to all players.

 

[DeletedUser1711]

Sure you need to wait 6 days to execute new idea? You are brilliant! I don't really "play" beta. just login from time to time spend some kp and check new stuff... It would be total waist of time since i'm on chapter 1.
But this postponing the tests are affecting us IN REAL GAME WORLD...



How current idea is right if people report so many wrong movements... and you did get moved even if you didn't agree (turned off)...

now whole week of waiting... and you know they would need 2-3 months of proper coding to make it work? Smooth testing which means more testing to be done per week... and not delaying it because of some tournaments...

... I don't even know where to start with this.

Maybe with: You contradict youself. You want them to do this fast. Preferably yesterday, and it's supposed to work and run smoothly. And two sentences later you say there are issues with how it was done. Like, what?

Besides they won't execute a new idea, they will "reform" the one they have now. (Implementing a new idea would propably take WEEKS, because programming stuff like this isn't done over night.) And for that they need to evaluate the data they gathered on their first/second try. Then they look for the mistakes, make appropriated chances where they need to and probably test it again. And you know what? They don't just have a "Beta Server" where they test on, but also probably a kind of "Alpha Server" - an internal server where they test things in a small generated enviroment, to keep the real big issues off of the live servers. And yes, a process like this takes up DAYS. Believe me, I worked in a field like this. Even the simpleset programm need sometimes days to finish, espacially if other people than yourself are supposed to use it. The testing and adjusting alone sometimes takes up as much time as the sole programming.

Another major fail by inno right from beginning... allowed people to spend cash on beta...
people shouldn't be able to purchase diamonds for real cash in testing areas...

What you're oppinion on what people should or should not do on a beta server is irrelevant in this discussion right now. Especially since I doubt that this is the reason why they wait for the tounament to be over. But do continue to believe as you like.

So in conclusion i'll be 5 months without proper neighbors in real game? Don't get me on other things that affect us by postponing these tests...
Or...

The ONLY SOLUTION is to postpone/disable tournaments until neighborhood player movement is FIXED.

I don't know how long you've been playing but for me it's been a year. I had neighbors at the beginning. Now I have like 3 active ones, and I'm talking 'bout 280+ provinces. I'd rather get moved NEXT YEAR if it means it's going to be done RIGHT. You already stated that there are issues in this game. Let's not add another one just because people like you demand they rush this out immediately.

 

[DeletedUser1711]

What I can't understand is why Inno consistently chooses solutions that are guaranteed to displease as many players as are pleased? It would be very easy to design solutions that please the majority. For example:

Gold Mines: had they left the amounts at full price, everyone would have been happy. We wouldn't have seen a single complaint. It would benefit the players who don't have time to visit, been a boon to players who do usually have / make the time to visit, and encouraged non-visitors to start the habit. And had they added a few supplies to the Mines, we'd have seen entire posts filled with 'Inno you're wonderful!"

Instead, as a matter of course, they chose a divisive and disrespectful option. People who formerly didn't have time to visit were given a new boost in coins. Players who did formerly visit were punished with a reduction in coins (the savings of time was irrelevant because they didn't want time, they wanted coins). Why did non-NH players deserve an increase? Why did consistent NH players deserve a reduction?

Is it just me or do those two paragraphes kind of contradict each other? On one hand you want the mines to give out even more supplies than they do an on the other you complain about people using the mines to get money?
I'm sorry if I got this wrong, but for me this makes little sense right now.
(Plus, I'm sure that whatever INNO would have done, there would always have been someone who complains about something. People seem to like to complain...)

Player Move: Those of you who are inclined to laud Inno - please read the updates. This is a group of developers who apparently forgot to make the fundamental "IF" statement to disclude players who opted out. Please.

They've made a HUGE issue out of this neighborhood move. Without ever having explained why it's important to fix it in the first place. If this is as complicated as they indicate - requiring over a year of work or postponement, and days of tedious implementation - wasn't there a better solution? Why couldn't they instead find ways of providing us with the intended benefits of Neighborhood, but sans Neighborhoods?

We could all get excited about truly new developments. Fellowship alliances, perhaps, to extend trade and visits? Or, if that's too complicated from a programming standpoint, there are other options.

• For NH, rather than being limited by discovery, why not make a simple change in code to allow for X number of NH visits anywhere we like (with X increasing per age). That would allow us great flexibility to visit players at will. Or not.
• For traders, they could also change the calculation: we could trade with X number of players, beginning with those closest, with X increasing per age.

These types of coding changes aren't sweeping - they involve relatively simple coding re-writes, not extensive algorithm development - and they Don't mandate ongoing player moves that are bug-invitations.

What are we really gaining from this Player Move? I think that the players who aren't happy about the process are those who have concluded that, given the limited gain and the loss of better opportunities, any down time or loss of existing functionality simply isn't worth the paltry outcomes.

Where is the developer creativity, coding skill, and imagination? They could deliver more for less - on multiple levels. Take a look at any topic on this and other Forums: given the chance, we players could come to consensus on most issues in way that wouldn't seriously undermine the reasonable profitability of Elvenar. Most of our Forum dissent stems from Inno's inability?unwilingness? to utilize creative thinking to offer win/win scenarios to clients.

Neighborhoods by entry placement - this is a failed concept. It didn't work. They should have long ago cut their losses and delivered improved concepts to us. Instead we're seeing a bad idea becoming entrenched as a "fixed" bad idea that still leaves players with fundamental inequalities.

How many people have there been who got moved even though the turned it to off? Reading this topic here I only saw one who stated this. Have there been more?

And I do think the "Player Move" explains itself, why it has/had to be. People are copmplaining constantly about their lack of neighbors (no one for help, no one to trade, ...), so something HAD to be done. I'm sure the team considered more ideas than this one, and probably also tried out more, but this was just the solution that worked the best. Besides, I don't think this is the final solution to the "neighborhood problem" - It's just another step to solving this, just like the mines were. It's not perfect, and for some it might even be bad, but it's one step closer to making this game what the developers intendet it to be. (No, I'm not talking about making money.)
This games has been in a constant development since I started playing (a year ago), and I think there is still more to come that makes this game better than it is.

 

[DeletedUser1513]

The ONLY SOLUTION is to postpone/disable tournaments until neighborhood player movement is FIXED.

I fully agree.

 

[DeletedUser1513]

They've made a HUGE issue out of this neighborhood move. Without ever having explained why it's important to fix it in the first place. If this is as complicated as they indicate - requiring over a year of work or postponement, and days of tedious implementation - wasn't there a better solution? Why couldn't they instead find ways of providing us with the intended benefits of Neighborhood, but sans Neighborhoods?

complicated???
Relocation on a repeating map is complicated.
I think it get really time they hire software engineers with common sense!
They have to sequencialize all the repeating maps (starting from the middle all the way to the outside), then start moving the people from the end of this array to the same free location at the beginning of the array. and do this sequentially until all people are moved.
If they made a decent design they would have coded everything based on the players location, and the relocation is done.
So what's complicated on coding this algoritm. It's just programming of an array where per location one pointer starts at the end and one starts at the beginning, and then let them move until they hit eachother.

 

[DeletedUser]

So what's co'mplicated on coding this algoritm. It's just programming of an array

Heck, Jouchka (in my Texan grinning drawl)...I know it's not complicated...you know it's not complicated...but they make a big deal out of it - and we're certainly experiencing it like its complicated - so I decided to start the argument from their point of view.

#natzish
I read a moderator comment earlier today, that they'd inadvertently ignored the decline option. I can't quote it, because it's gone. I doubt I should speculate further.

And, if you had read the post, you'd understand: people aren't complaining about the lack of "neighbors". They complain about the lack of trading. The lack of coins / supplies. Possibly about the lack of fighting partners. Even if they use the term "neighbors", they mean the benefits they expect from neighbors. There's nothing written in stone that says these benefits are required to come from discovered neighbors.

The neighborhood system establishes win/lose scenarios from the outset. Some players will have better neighbors than others - and even if they're moved around, there will remain a lack of parity. Apparently Inno intends to increase the "game of chance" elements, too. They elect to "fix" the fundamental chance element of neighborhood placement; Rune Shards are by chance, boosts are by chance, fighting is by chance, event prizes are by chance...

I'm an unlucky person. If Elvenar's description had accurately included "build a city...where some elements are increasingly influenced by chance..." I never would have begun playing and spending. Now that they've fully committed to chance, they need to make that clear to new players, to whom the concept of "city building" is more about consistent effort than a roll of the dice.

 

[DeletedUser1589]

my experience: I've decided not to move and luckily now I am surrounded by lot of players who help and participate in tournaments. Perhaps it depends from a huge B side but I am happy about this

 

[DeletedUser607]

Is it just me or do those two paragraphes kind of contradict each other? On one hand you want the mines to give out even more supplies than they do an on the other you complain about people using the mines to get money?
I'm sorry if I got this wrong, but for me this makes little sense right now.
(Plus, I'm sure that whatever INNO would have done, there would always have been someone who complains about something. People seem to like to complain...

But that's quite simple and easy to understand: if this player himself uses the gold mines, they can't be good enough. more supplies, more coins, etc. if others are using the gold mines, they give too many coins and should deliver less coins.

it's that simple ;-)

 

[DeletedUser]

But that's quite simple and easy to understand: if this player himself uses the gold mines, they can't be good enough. more supplies, more coins, etc. if others are using the gold mines, they give too many coins and should deliver less coins.

it's that simple ;-)

I'm reminded of the fable of Erkki and the Devil...

Anyway, the mention of Gold Mines is as an illustrative point. Inno created a controversy by intentionally rewarding some players and punishing others. They could have opted to reward everyone equally, but they didn't. That's all.

The fact that they didn't see the outcome of this is indicative of their ignorance of how players interact with the game. When it comes to NH, there are two kinds of players: Those who visit their neighbors and those who don't. From there, it's quite simple to see that - if they introduce Gold Mines for 1/2 the value - there will two different outcomes. The non-visitors will have easy new coins. The visitors will lose 1/2 of their coins.

This "oh, since you don't have to click in, you shouldn't get the coins" - it's ridiculous. Those who did click in lost the opportunity - lost the coins they were previously getting. Clearly, if a developer takes away something you've had for a long time and come to rely upon - you're not going to be grateful. Conversely, if the dev gives you something new, you're going to think "cool".

If the mines had been full value, the visitor types would think "cool, I can take a break from all that clicking", and the non-visitor types would think "cool, I can get the coins now without having to click in" - and everyone would benefit. And benefit equally. And be happy to be doing less work for the coins.

Again - why are they so rigid in their thinking that they can't create win/win solutions? We all already know that this Player Move isn't going to be win/win. Some of us will end up in crappy neighborhoods. Some of us won't. This isn't a good long-term approach for a game aiming for the "social gaming" market.

 

[DeletedUser651]

I am glad the devs are working on something to fix the neighborhood system, but I do not think this is a good choice. No matter what some people will get better neighborhoods than others. That means the game will be different for each player. I don't think this is a good choice. I think a game is better that has everyone on even footing. It would be like starting a monopoly game and one player is handed three properties that all match and make a monopoly from the start while the other does not have this advantage. The players who started with Illinois, Kentucky and Indiana would do very well and probably wouldn't complain much about the game. While the players who started without those properties wouldn't find the game nearly as much fun.

As Bobbi said above, all anyone wants are the benefits from neighborhoods, no one cares what the world map actually looks like. If they would base a solution on any one of dozens of solutions that doesn't depend on lucky placement this game would be much better balanced.

 

[DeletedUser118]

So you say as long as you get the same benefits out of it while being in a total goldmine desert, you would still choose that over a lively neighborhood?

Seriously?

 

[DeletedUser1513]

my experience: I've decided not to move and luckily now I am surrounded by lot of players who help and participate in tournaments. Perhaps it depends from a huge B side but I am happy about this

And the ones that wanted wanted to move are still in the desert in the middle of tournaments that are just death. SO all that have moved now have a huge benefith because they will get a termendous amount of relics,while those who aren't moved almost get nothing extra compared to these guys.
It's time that the devs start playing the game so they know what are the essential parts of the game, so they can treat all their players in the same way.
I'm really annoyed about inno screwing up the fun in the game over and over again!
I know this is beta, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be competiveness and fairness.

 

[DeletedUser]

What I can't understand is why Inno consistently chooses solutions that are guaranteed to displease as many players as are pleased? It would be very easy to design solutions that please the majority. For example:

Gold Mines: had they left the amounts at full price, everyone would have been happy. We wouldn't have seen a single complaint. It would benefit the players who don't have time to visit, been a boon to players who do usually have / make the time to visit, and encouraged non-visitors to start the habit. And had they added a few supplies to the Mines, we'd have seen entire posts filled with 'Inno you're wonderful!"

not just full price, they should give you more... You can't trade goods with gold mines!

... I don't even know where to start with this.

Maybe with: You contradict youself. You want them to do this fast. Preferably yesterday, and it's supposed to work and run smoothly. And two sentences later you say there are issues with how it was done. Like, what?

Besides they won't execute a new idea, they will "reform" the one they have now. (Implementing a new idea would propably take WEEKS, because programming stuff like this isn't done over night.) And for that they need to evaluate the data they gathered on their first/second try. Then they look for the mistakes, make appropriated chances where they need to and probably test it again. And you know what? They don't just have a "Beta Server" where they test on, but also probably a kind of "Alpha Server" - an internal server where they test things in a small generated enviroment, to keep the real big issues off of the live servers. And yes, a process like this takes up DAYS. Believe me, I worked in a field like this. Even the simpleset programm need sometimes days to finish, espacially if other people than yourself are supposed to use it. The testing and adjusting alone sometimes takes up as much time as the sole programming.




What you're oppinion on what people should or should not do on a beta server is irrelevant in this discussion right now. Especially since I doubt that this is the reason why they wait for the tounament to be over. But do continue to believe as you like.




I don't know how long you've been playing but for me it's been a year. I had neighbors at the beginning. Now I have like 3 active ones, and I'm talking 'bout 280+ provinces. I'd rather get moved NEXT YEAR if it means it's going to be done RIGHT. You already stated that there are issues in this game. Let's not add another one just because people like you demand they rush this out immediately.

No. I want them to focus on movement only and keeping tournaments creates additional delays...
That's why want them to pause on tournaments...

Remember this is only public TEST server. Period. Or at least it should be... But is it? Muf-Muf can answer this why they charge for diamonds on BETA...

Instead of giving small amount of diamonds every month to test new features....

I play 3 months... on international (real) server... Neighboors: All below my activity level can't trade that many goods. The Rest is land of empty mines.
Red dot is the only active player which I could reach, if there wouldn't be ORC limitations.

 

[DeletedUser607]

And the ones that wanted wanted to move are still in the desert in the middle of tournaments that are just death. SO all that have moved now have a huge benefith because they will get a termendous amount of relics,while those who aren't moved almost get nothing extra compared to these guys.
It's time that the devs start playing the game so they know what are the essential parts of the game, so they can treat all their players in the same way.
I'm really annoyed about inno screwing up the fun in the game over and over again!
I know this is beta, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be competiveness and fairness.

then I'm apparently in the third group (don't forget about us).

players, who are in that game for a long time (I joined shortly after beta opened), and now see others moving inwards. we don't have to move, and get the benefit of new neighbors (but we lose the gold mines).

by the way: whoever is playing that game and has a shortage at coins is clearly doing something wrong. I usually have to use the wholesaler because I always keep running into that upper coin limit.

 

[DeletedUser]

whoever is playing that game and has a shortage at coins is clearly doing something wrong.

I have 127 gold Mines..so while I'm in Orc and using builders to make those expensive upgrades, I can't scout.

So you say as long as you get the same benefits out of it while being in a total goldmine desert, you would still choose that over a lively neighborhood?

Seriously?

I'm not interesting in getting benefits that everyone doesn't get equally. Since everyone can't have a lively neighborhood with an equitable balance of power cities, fighters, etc - I don't think anyone should have it. Really - what would be the point of making a Forum post that essentially says, "hey, this benefits me, so I like it, and the rest of you can suffer."

 

[DeletedUser118]

Sorry but I don't agree with you here. Only cuz there are players who are not able to get the same benefits from the game as others nobody should get them? Then lets also take out all diamond buildings cuz not everyone has the money to pay them. There will always be those with more "luck" than others. That's just the way the world works and so does the game. You say: "hey, this benefits me, so I like it, and the rest of you can suffer." is wrong, while I say: "hey, this does not benefit me so noone should have it and suffer just like me." is not any better.

I think the solution Innogames came up with is, without the bugs of course, is all fine. Of course there can always be some things changed for the better but the idea behind it is pretty good.