Discussion Release Notes version 1.27

[SoggyShorts]

the break even points regarding working population to get the same Abyss pop bonus as before the change are about:

Interesting numbers.
I went through some of my old builds that I had saved in elvenarchitect, and after deleting event buildings and replacing them with a couple res the new GA was still better for all of them.
My playstyle must involve a much higher working pop than other players. (Although I thought my 6:3:2 with 8 workshops was pretty normal)
That or some players dump way more KP into the GA than I do. (I just aimed to always keep it more efficient than my res)

 

[Lissona]

At the moment it might be a decrease for players in lower chapters. But if you take into account that at some point you have a "BiS" building without the need to put KP into it - perhaps it would be better to take a deep breath in, breathe out, breathe in....

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

? What's "BiS"?

 

[DeletedUser1897]

How much do magical buildings cost in the 10th century?

 

[DeletedUser1877]

At the moment it might be a decrease for players in lower chapters. But if you take into account that at some point you have a "BiS" building without the need to put KP into it - perhaps it would be better to take a deep breath in, breathe out, breathe in....

Perhaps it would be better to look at how changes will affect ALL players, considering the AW in question is available in chapter 2, and the devs encouraged everyone to build them just last month.

So, knowing that small players would take a hit, and knowing that they made it available in a low chapter, why exactly did they go down this road?

 

[Lissona]

Perhaps it would be better to look at how changes will affect ALL players,...

Yes, and all players means even those who didn't start with the game - which ideally includes more players than already play the game. You can't always do changes which please the complete (player-)base - well you can, if you tend to make a disney style fable game...
I would agree if the change will make it harder for players in earlier chapters all the way through the tech tree, but at some point they will be glad to have it...
To say that now you do take a hit but knowing that at some point it is really BiS (Best in Slot - which means superior to normal houses in that case) isn't farsighted.

 

[Arayla]

I agree that the developers can't please everyone. I do feel it is misleading to introduce an Ancient Wonder in Chapter 2 that would be detrimental to my town (I'm in Chapter 3). I have zero extra space (although I do have some saved in order to upgrade the 3 armories when I have enough population but I have to wait to unlock Superior Residences) and I've played "by the book" which means I've got a good ratio of tier 1 to tier 2 (no tier 3 yet), followed the quest suggestions to have 3 armories, stayed in the GZ when I do provinces, etc.

Even though I'm playing by the book, I would only gain 45 population if I place the Golden Abyss today. I just got my last rune for it yesterday and was so looking forward to the population boost and participating in my fellowship's AW 3KP message thread.

So please help me understand why I've been encouraged to implement this since Chapter 2 yet it would take up too much space which is needed by the residences in order for me to continue to grow my town.

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

For some players it will be weeks, even months, before the GA becomes worth having... And this whole issue could have been avoided if the new percentages had been added to the old values instead of replacing them.

At least now we know not to rush to build any more AWs, as they might get changed in ways that do not benefit our towns, or even hurt us.

 

[Lissona]

@Arayla: Could you please post the amount of working population you have? And you are talking about your city on beta server?

Btw @all: before the patch the Golden Abyss had to be levelled to become usefull (and with every chapter even levelled more), now even a GA Lvl 1 is superior to fully upgraded houses (same with ToS Lvl 1 compared to workshops if you scout all the time)

 

[Konniver]

How much do magical buildings cost in the 10th century?

1400 diamonds, for both the workshop and residence.

 

[Arayla]

@Arayla: Could you please post the amount of working population you have? And you are talking about your city on beta server?

Working pop: 1972
I have 20 residences at level 7. They cannot be upgraded any higher until I get to Superior Residences in the tech tree. I have 28 non-working population that will be used to upgrade an armory (requires 42 population) after I can upgrade more residences.
Yes, this is my city on the beta server.
When I click on the Build tab for the Golden Abyss, it shows that I would gain 45 population (to build it, not upgrade).

Before the rebalancing change, it would have given 200 population which made it worth building to a low-level player.

 

[Arayla]

Before completing chapter 3 Superior Residences, a level 7 residence holds 100 population in a 2x3 area.
Before completing the Dwarven Residences, a level 15 residence holds 420 population in a 3x3 area.

The Golden Abyss for me (early chapter 3) holds 45 population in a 3x3 area. I'm not sure why I would place it right now even though early players are encouraged to do so.

 

[DeletedUser1877]

Btw @all: before the patch the Golden Abyss had to be levelled to become usefull (and with every chapter even levelled more), now even a GA Lvl 1 is superior to fully upgraded houses (same with ToS Lvl 1 compared to workshops if you scout all the time)

Before the patch, an unleveled GA provided 200 pop and coins. To a player in chapter 2 that WAS useful. I guess those of you on the mountain top can't concieve of a mere 200 population any more. As to the current GA being superior to fully upgraded houses, again, if you live on the top of that mountain, perhaps. Clearly stated by Arayla, that is NOT the case for the low level players who were advised to build their wonders, and now are sitting on albatrosses that take more space than they give value.

 

[DeletedUser1657]

Btw @all: before the patch the Golden Abyss had to be levelled to become usefull (and with every chapter even levelled more), now even a GA Lvl 1 is superior to fully upgraded houses

Actually I do not agree with that statement and the GA took only a few levels to be very beneficial, maybe that is why it was scaled back initially and can be understood in terms of scaling back. However was it scaled back too much?

Lets add some analysis rather than conjecture.
The first table looks at the first 5 levels of the new gold abyss compared to various working populations. The red and green highlights show an increase or decrease compared to the prior benefits of the abyss. So for level 1 town they would need 9000 working population to gain the same 200 population

Now @Arayla states a pop of 1972 era 3 town. I have 2 era 2 towns researching scouts for era 3 and their working population is 1667 and 1487. So the chance of an era 2/3 town getting 9000 population is likely very small to impossible. Would love to see someone with a 9000 working population town in this era.

Now the second table looks at the current situation in comparison to population per square of the current GA compared to the best advanced level residence as available in era 2. Superior residences come in era 3 and will have a better population per square. I did this based on the residence without culture needs, with culture use 14 or 15 population per square depending on race. Highlights indicate above or below population per square of available residence.

Considering era 2/3 towns would have closer to 1000-2500 working population this is well short of a residence available at the same time. Making the Gold Abyss a useless wonder at the time it is available and a time when space is very critical.

Options:

1. Ignore this fact and leave it as is. Players will ignore GA until later in the game
2. Shift GA to be a later wonder - not really a good option due to various impacts
3. Add a minimum value to GA to ensure an initial benefit while preventing a too powerful building.
4. Adjust % rewards - very complex
5. Other ideas?

 

[DeletedUser1257]

Maybe they could add a minimum population award of something like 100 population per level. This would still be less than what the pre-change Abyss provided for population but would at least give a useful amount of population for people who build the Abyss at a lower level.

You would get the population calculated by the new percentages OR the minimum population based on level whichever is larger.

For example a pre-change Level 5 Abyss used to provide 650 population and under this idea would still provide a minimum of 500 population. If someone in the early chapters with a low working population built a level 5 Abyss they would get 500 population. For someone like me in the Fairy chapter with 24k working population and a level 5 Abyss, I would use the percentage and get 900 population as the percentage calculation is larger than the minimum.

p.s. I just chose Level 5 Abyss at random, but you can do the comparison at any level.

 

[DeletedUser283]

Before the patch, an unleveled GA provided 200 pop and coins. To a player in chapter 2 that WAS useful. I guess those of you on the mountain top can't concieve of a mere 200 population any more. As to the current GA being superior to fully upgraded houses, again, if you live on the top of that mountain, perhaps. [...]

it is not about sitting on a mountain top
I am in the sorcerers chapter, and I started building the abyss while in the woodelves chapter;
my reasonning at the time was :
"1. I have very little space to get more residences
2. I already have some fairy-level residences that I never could upgrade (and probably never will be able to) because of lack of free space
3. if it gives population on a fixed footprint, go for it !"

so I built it, it is now level 4 and since 1.27 I am very happy, thanks
but while at lvl2, it gave less population than any of my residences (and I do not need coins);
now I have some slack I can use to start upgrading my workshops when the events presents a quest in the line of "upgrade a building or scout".

but first it took me monthes to gather the b.... runes

I fully understand how badly such a change can hurt small players who built their strategy around the previous values of the GA;

I am well aware that devs make changes without ever considering the effect on existing players :

-they change the fighting system entirely, exisiting players who have been there the longest get banned from fighting
-they change the GA, existing players who are in chapters 2 to ... 5? 7? ... take a hit that forces them to reconsider their entire strategy

whenever they change this game, it is for future new players only, and those who are already here and somtimes invested real money into the game get treated like crap

"we don't get no respect"
(Rodney Dangerfield)

 

[Dony]

• Ignore this fact and leave it as is. Players will ignore GA until later in the game

• Shift GA to be a later wonder - not really a good option due to various impacts

• Add a minimum value to GA to ensure an initial benefit while preventing a too powerful building.

• Adjust % rewards - very complex

• Other ideas?

5. have both values old one and new one and which one will be better will be active (we already have AW with 3 benefits so yes they can have 1 more array of values to add to this), that means low level chapter players wont be affected by this neither will top players (if 200 pop for chapter 2 is so powerfull that it needs to be nerfed then what about 5k pop for top players?)
6. have old values + new values a bit reduced
7. have it scale with main hall + their current values (total coeficient = 50% from main hall + 50% from working pop (whatever % this is just example))

+ other milions of ways, they just took the worst one to discourage new/lowlvl players
even new player who joins game now will laugh at benefit it gives
golden abyss is very powerfull building and we would not have this problem if it was introduced in chapter 10, then it would be godlike for everybody

 

[Lissona]

Working pop: 1972

Yes, I agree for people in your situation/chapter etc. the GA is - regarding pop/square - simply useless right now.

Before the rebalancing change, it would have given 200 population which made it worth building to a low-level player.

And at that point I can't agree - the GA at Lvl 1 would only be a short time good wonder, because for a positive pop/square value over time you must level it (with the old values up to about Lvl 6 for S&D chapter). But - new players like you don't have to wait for new chapters, they can advance all the way through to S&D and get in touch with new wonders they want to build (with KP they do not have). The players who started long ago had a lot of waiting time and had no other opportunity than spending KPs to wonders - levelling was easy.

On the other hand: just because it is there doesn't mean it must be usefull for everybody right now. People who can't advance that fast in the tech tree (they get the KP but don't get the resources as fast) a wonder like the GA could be some long term KP money box.

@Gandolfus: I still remember the good old days, but whenever a new wonder was released (even in the chapter where I was currently researching or the ones before) I tried to figure out if a wonder was worth building in regard to my playstyle (and not much of them were). If not: hey ho - one item less on the wishlist. Btw: "... who were advised to build their wonders," - who said that at what time and where?

 

[Dony]

who said that at what time and where?

last inno TV

 

[Sir Squirrel]

Yes Timon in the last InnoTV said to build the wonders now so you have and can benefit from the changes, lol, Also the GA was a good wonder to build in level 2 as it produced more pop and coins then a residence at that point and a fair number of fellowships have KP chains and the smaller players want to help. To have it only give half the pop now is the problem (we lost 100 pop). If we hadn't built it, then we could just wait, but now we have a building that doesn't produce as much as a residence at that level and selling it will just take away 100 more population and we lose all the KP's invested in it.