Discussion Release Notes version 1.27

[DeletedUser1877]

Quick and dirty math:

To get a "break even" on a level 3 GA, you need 13,666 working population. (13,666 x 3% = 410)
Having just enterred chapter 4, within the GZ, my working poulation is 4962. Every available bit of land I have is in use. There are 4 expansions coming in the chapter, but100s of KP from the 1st.

My GA has been dropped from 410 to 149, and I dont't see being able to use 4 expansions to add the almos 9K working pop to reach break even, considering much of that land will need to be residential to recoup the lost pop.

So, again I ask - where does it benefit the player to even build that chapter 2 structure?

And Ritsel, sorry to see you go, but I understand.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

So, again I ask - where does it benefit the player to even build that chapter 2 structure?

for you a lvl 1 abyss would give you 111 population, right?
if you build a the same space (9squares) of lvl 1 houses, you would get 70 population. So it gives you more population per square then equivalent level house. Of course, you would level your houses to get more population out of the same space, but the same counts for the wonder. You should also level it to get more population.

The abyss also produces coins faster then a house, so that also helps you.

On my main account on the dutch server i am in chapter 10 with almost 100k working population. But i sitll havent built the abyss yet.
Thats not because i tought it was a bad wonder before, its because i dont have the spare kp yet to be able to level it and make it worthwhile.
There is no point in building everything as soon as you can if it doesnt benefit you enough yet.

In your case i understand your pain, because it used to be worth it , but now its not anymore. You have 3 choices, either you level it till it is worth it again, or you trash it so you get the room back, or you leave it as it is, knowing that it will be one day worth it again when you have more working population (and believe me thats faster then you think, every time you research a factory upgrade, your working population skyrockets)

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

(and believe me thats faster then you think, every time you research a factory upgrade, your working population skyrockets)

Only if you do every possible upgrade as soon as you can. Not everyone does that. For example, I did not upgrade my Steel Manufactories past level 16 until I was at the end fo Woodelves, at which point I went from 16 to 23. Plenty of other players do not do upgrades just because they can. If you are one of those that do - good for you, enjoy your new Abyss! But please try to remember that other players may have different playing styles due to various reasons.

 

[DeletedUser1877]

for you a lvl 1 abyss would give you 111 population, right?
if you build a the same space (9squares) of lvl 1 houses, you would get 70 population. So it gives you more population per square then equivalent level house. Of course, you would level your houses to get more population out of the same space, but the same counts for the wonder. You should also level it to get more population.

Upgrading 9 level 1 houses takes a few minutes , upgrading level 1 abyss takes 9 hours plus 109 hours worth of KP. So, really not a good comparison.

On my main account on the dutch server i am in chapter 10 with almost 100k working population. But i sitll havent built the abyss yet.
Thats not because i tought it was a bad wonder before, its because i dont have the spare kp yet to be able to level it and make it worthwhile.
There is no point in building everything as soon as you can if it doesnt benefit you enough yet.

That is the point it did benefit us lower level players. Now it is a handicap.

In your case i understand your pain, because it used to be worth it , but now its not anymore. You have 3 choices, either you level it till it is worth it again,

quick math says I need to get it to level 15 to get back to where I was 10 hours ago.

or you trash it so you get the room back

throw away 26 hours 48 minutes of build/upgrade time and 264 KP, 9 relics plus initial goods ,

or you leave it as it is, knowing that it will be one day worth it again when you have more working population (and believe me thats faster then you think, every time you research a factory upgrade, your working population skyrockets)

Every factory is at max level for it's footprint, and every square available is in use

 

[SoggyShorts]

But for small players (Dwarves and earlier) it is much worse than before. Did you guys forget that not everyone is a late-game player?

My level 2 Abyss in early chapter 6 went from 300 to 508, and my city is well within the GZ, and just started doing chapter 6 level upgrades.
Coins went from 7,600 to 44,000 per 3h too (saaaahweeeeet)

We will try to prepare you for big changes like the Ancient Wonder rebalancing up front in different ways though. This one e.g. was covered in our last InnoGames TV episode and we have talked about it on the forums lately as well

"There will be changes to AW, making them % based as well as level based" Is not supper informative to be honest.
With having just 1-2 weeks between Live and Beta is there any reason why the actual numbers can't be released before being implemented here? This way potentially thousands of players could see how the update will effect each of their cities and not only plan accordingly, but give informed feedback.
Even if you are unwilling to give us information in advance, why not give specifics (charts) when updates are released? We shouldn't need Konniver and Heymrdiedier to do this for you.
Personally I like this batch of AW updates, but I have no idea what the next ones will be like

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

My level 2 Abyss in early chapter 6 went from 300 to 508, and my city is well within the GZ, and just started doing chapter 6 level upgrades.
Coins went from 7,600 to 44,000 per 3h too (saaaahweeeeet)

Some of us don't have 15 Winter Stars...

 

[SoggyShorts]

Some of us don't have 15 Winter Stars...

Scrubs! Lol, but seriously if I didn't have winter stars I'd just have more res and culture buildings and less empty space--It wouldn't effect my working population at all as I always run 5-8xT1, 3xT2, 2xT3 and 8 workshops.

 

[DeletedUser1877]

My level 2 Abyss in early chapter 6 went from 300 to 508, and my city is well within the GZ, and just started doing chapter 6 level upgrades.
Coins went from 7,600 to 44,000 per 3h too (saaaahweeeeet)

And as I stated in an earlier post, I am in the top half of players by rank, meaning there are more lower than me than above. I'm only starting chapter 4, and took over a 50% loss on my GA. There may be the odd exception to this, but I'd say everyone who has less score than me (over 50% of players in Beta) have taken a loss. so, over half are "some small edge cases", and less than half are "the vast, vast majority of players". To this, I say Botany Scholar.

 

[SoggyShorts]

And as I stated in an earlier post, I am in the top half of players by rank, meaning there are more lower than me than above. I'm only starting chapter 4, and took over a 50% loss on my GA. There may be the odd exception to this, but I'd say everyone who has less score than me (over 50% of players in Beta) have taken a loss. so, over half are "some small edge cases", and less than half are "the vast, vast majority of players". To this, I say Botany Scholar.

I think your case might be rarer than you think. It's possible that very few players below you in rank even have a GA.
Also I'd guess that a higher percentage of players above you in score are actually active than players below you (not sure if the devs were only counting active players in their statement of "vast majority")
While I do empathize with your situation, it shouldn't take you too long to get back what you've lost, and once you do get a larger working population it's all gravy from there.

 

[DeletedUser1877]

To get a larger working population, I have to upgrade all my factories. Easy...
To upgrade my factories, I need land and population.... easy
Oh, the new residences I have to build just used my new land...
What do you think is "too long"?
If I ignore everything else between, I'm just shy of 200 KP of getting the 2 expansions needed to start the project. Going out of the GZ is of course an option, but needs either a ton of time, or space to upgrade manufactories in.

So, no matter how we look at it, players in my situation have had several hundred hours of work made worthless, and face several 100 hours of work more to break even.

Why is it larger players were quick to scream about the KP they invested researching tournaments, but when smaller players effectively lose even more, the bigger players say stuff like "you'll get it back" and "it'll be worth it when you finally get there"?

 

[DeletedUser1665]

Elven Architect has been updated

• Tome of Secrets
• Golden Abyss

When you go to the ranking points in Elven Architect and pull up the "Golden Abyss only" there is a mistake at level's 10 and 11 in the listing.

When it comes to the Golden Abyss I lost 113 pop in my level 2 in Beta. I'm pretty sure it will make the high end players on the live servers happy while it will make the low end players mad. On live I stand to gain around 5500 pop and way to many coins (with my level 9) but they will help offset the cost in the nasty wholesaler.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Gandolfus
I'm not saying it's easy, but I also think "several 100 hours of work more to break even." is a bit of an exaggeration. You are attacking the statement of "Vast majority" as an exaggeration after all.
What you've really lost (temporarily) is equivalent to a level 11 house which would give back your lost population. I doubt it will take you weeks to free up a 3x3 space.

For the record, when players complained about the 40 KP they paid for unlocking tournaments I thought they were being ridiculous, and called them out on it repeatedly.

 

[Konniver]

When you go to the ranking points in Elven Architect and pull up the "Golden Abyss only" there is a mistake at level's 10 and 11 in the listing.

How do you find the values incorrect? Ranking points are determined by the total amount of KP invested up to that point. At level 10, 2100 KP has been invested. Level 11 still has the same ranking points as no KP is needed to upgrade to level 11, only rune shards and goods.

 

[Konniver]

@Marindor I believe there to be a mistake in a level 13 Golden Abyss ... apparently it provides a fixed 2200 population as well.

 

[DeletedUser1877]

So easy... sell one or two bldgs we have worked for, invested time in, then build another residence (32 hours, IF you have no slack time between levels, and have resources, culture, supplies, coins) for it. Of course, then we are lower on culture, or goods, or troop training, depending on what we are forced to sell.

No matter the nice words used, many, many of us have had our progress stifled and our villages damaged by this "improvement". In fact, had I not been upgrading residences lately for the coinage, I would have gone deep into negative population.

I, personally, know several players in live who rely on GA for pop, and would, without a warning, go negative. I can advise them, but I only know a few of the players in all the worlds.

I still maintain this change was ill thought out and damaging to a large number of players.

For those it helped, I'm happy for you, sadly, many aren't in that "vast, vast majority". In fact, 2 have disagreed with me, and at least 2 have agreed with me, liked my posts, and at least one has said she's done here because of this.

 

[SoggyShorts]

In fact, 2 have disagreed with me, and at least 2 have agreed with me, liked my posts, and at least one has said she's done here because of this.

Actually Ritsel (who was in my FS) quit a few days ago, and said this is yet another reason to stop playing her beta account, so saying she quit over this is a little misleading.
Also, I hardly think the 5 people posting in this thread can be used to represent tens of thousands of players....

 

[DeletedUser1877]

On Ritsel, if you didnt know she quit earlier, her post implies this was the last straw, but fair enough.

And 5 people indeed don't represent 10s of thousands, just pointing out I am not a lone voice here.

It just feels like those who are beyond being hurt by this cannot remember back to struggling for population. I believe that had the GA been available when they were in chapters 3 and 4, many would have jumped on it, at this level, with the old stats, it was a blessing.

Suddenly, it is not worth the space it occupies at my level. Everyone who has spoken agrees on that, suggesting a residence would give more pop with less space.

If the cost of getting it to the point is is could be refunded, and banked, I'd sell it. Banked, because while couple hundred KP would do a lot of research, the goods to complete them aren't so easy come by. Failing that, it's an albatross to be worked around until it again has value.

 

[lika1961]

It Is unfortunately another of those situations where things are changed in the name of "balance". I don't have a GA, but certainly know the feeling of planning for your city to go in a certain direction only to find that the goalposts have been moved. I will never be happy to be told that you need to suffer now in order to benefit later when an item I have has been devalued. That is something your parents tell you to teach you life lessons and I don't play games to learn life lessons. @Gandolfus, I feel your pain.

 

[DeletedUser1877]

Balance - improving something for those at the top, while making things harder for those at the bottom trying to get to the top.

 

[DeletedUser1657]

Yesterday my Golden Abyss lvl 2 gave 300 population, Now it's 239!
And upgrade to lvl 3 would only give me 273 population, instead of 410

All I can say is be grateful and I feel your pain
Yesterday my gold abyss gave 2000 population now it is 792 (a loss of 1208 population)
Granted the game maths must be wrong as my available population went from positive (barely to -1981). Even with the correct maths I am in a world of pain trying to get back to positive population with a maxed out city space and I sure as heck can't upgrade something to increase my working population as my people rioted and killed 1/2 my population last night.

So, I ask you, why even have the stupid thing now?
Yes, I am hot about this, try as I might, I see nothing good in it.

I can see the potential in it and I like the idea of it increasing but I do agree at the start it isn't worth having.

Not that this help you with your frustrations, but when i was your level, there wasnt even a golden abyss in the game.

We designed our cities around them and their benefits.

While you are right and I built many towns like that the game has changed a lot since then and because there is a GA people base their strategy around it, its gonna hurt when your strategy blows up in you face.

Gold Abyss
Coins on my gold abyss went from 46,000 affected by culture to 85,500 not affected by culture. The wholesaler is going to love me.

Tome of secrets
Wow another one the wholesaler will love me for. Supplies per scout went from 9000 per scout to 64800 per scout I love it but wow I can't spend those fast enough. Pretty sure I will be deleting a workshop or 2 now so I can use my barracks to deplete my supplies and then send out a scout to build it up.