Discussion [Discussion] Release Notes version 1.22

[DeletedUser1665]

I wouldn't recomment building the Trader Guild to decrease trader fee. It will lose it's purpose

I'm thinking you forgot it also boost's production in visiting race's

 

[Heymrdiedier]

How long since the woodelf wonders were released?
WHAT ABOUT FIXING THE DAMN BUG THAT EXISTS SINCE IT"S INTRODUCTION!
It's still there, you still get shroom runes instead of enars or academie runes for help places 2+
dont you even think thats ridiculous?

Maybe they didnt fix it yet because we are not EXPECTED to have build these wonders allready? Sometimes we go way to fast for the developers

 

[DeletedUser1887]

I feel like I am stuck in a never-ending cycle. Kind of like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.

Changes are made. Often unnecessary and irrelevant changes, but they affect important parts of the game.
The players start pointing out things that Inno seemingly overlooked.
The players report all the new bugs (often unrelated to anything that was changed).
The players think about it for a bit and then point out even more things that are affected by the latest changes that Inno seemingly overlooked.
The same 2 or 3 players see it as their duty to point out that some of the other players' thoughts are incorrect, technically flawed or just stupid.
A few players (who are not really affected by the latest changes) point out that it is not so bad.
There is always an eternal optimist who points out a new and sensible way of making the current change acceptable.
A lower level player points out to a very experienced player that they don't know anything.
Someone reminds everyone that each player plays the way he wants and that your opinion is fine, but everyone is different.
Someone else initiates a conversation about the latest problem with the fighting units that we all must have but can't really use.
Someone points out that it is a lack of understanding that makes the battle system appear crap. If you just understand it, you will be fine.
Small players remind everyone that they exist and how this affects them.
The big players suddenly remember what the small ones are talking about and feel sorry for them.
Someone states that this is city building game and not a combat game.
Inno eventually comments to say thank you for your valuable feedback. We will look at it and let you know whether we will fix anything or not.
A few superficial things might get changed, causing a whole new range of bugs.
We wait a week or two and then repeat the process.

Still, next week might be different, right?

Long time reader, first time poster here on beta. This post was so hilarious and spot on... I deemed the signup procedure well worth it so I could like it.

 

[DeletedUser1887]

I can possibly wrap my head around some sort of sliding scale for the use of gold and supplies... to prevent players from getting too many goods... (note emphasis on possibly).

But, why add a sliding scale for trading boosted goods for goods? At ratio of 5:1, noone is amassing any fortunes. If a player is dumb enough to do this let them! I suspect they wanted to curb the gold and supplies and just universally applied it.


The only form of abuse i can come up with is a player that doesn't want to play in a fellowship and has a boost of 500%. Then yeah I guess maybe they're kinda getting away with something... (as with that boost % it's not needed to produce the other MFG types) but I doubt this is the balancing they had in mind. "OMG we gotta do something about those pesky recluses not building non-boosted MFGs"...

My only other theory would be they were worried about a LVL 15+ Blooming Trader Guild making Arch Mages / Mages easier. By the time you get to that level and have a 80% wholesaler improvement... you can trade 1000 of your boosted good for 800 of a non boosted... this would be quiet an advantage for a fellowship in a tournament... as so long as the tournament isn't in the fellowship members boosts... he could accept 5;4 1 star trades for his fellows and supply the entire FS. But, like I still can't see them thinking this is a big problem... and in my opinion there aren't too many players that are big enough to get to this high of a wonder level that aren't also obsessed with their ranking points... and therefore more selective about their Ancient Wonder choice.

Just to be a jerk... anyone who has excess supplies in Orcs and beyond... You're doing something incredibly wrong.
- You're either a farmer and you have too many workshops (probably because you wanted to upgrade buildings faster at the beginning of a chapter) and should trade them in for more manufactories...
- Or you're a fighter and not keeping your barracks or armories going full blast.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

How long since the woodelf wonders were released?
WHAT ABOUT FIXING THE DAMN BUG THAT EXISTS SINCE IT"S INTRODUCTION!
It's still there, you still get shroom runes instead of enars or academie runes for help places 2+
dont you even think thats ridiculous?

I think there might be another reason now: maybe they cant fix wonder bugs anymore without a complete overhaul of the wonder system...

You know you might remember that was the reason with the combat overhaul, they had to do it cause else they couldnt fix combat bugs anymore like units that were supposed to be able to fly over obstacles. At least we got this one behind us now and now all the fairy units are flying all over the place ....

 

[DeletedUser]

Fixed the problem where Sword Dancers from the Dwarven Bulwark were not credited correctly to some players, and compensated for the missing units for those affected

A small compensation for almost 2 months lost of units, but thx anyway. Will test in ~1:15 if it's really fixed...

 

[Dony]

anyone who has excess supplies in Orcs and beyond... You're doing something incredibly wrong.
- You're either a farmer and you have too many workshops (probably because you wanted to upgrade buildings faster at the beginning of a chapter) and should trade them in for more manufactories...
- Or you're a fighter and not keeping your barracks or armories going full blast.

I dont agree with this at all
i have 8 workshops, producing once per 3h + 9h overnight
barracks run nonstop since im fighter
and have supplies 1+ milion on any given moment
from my point of view its exactly the opposite, if you lack supplies, you have no clue how to play this game, when there is plenty of ways to get supplies now. its as easy as to get 1 milion supplies daily if you know what you are doing and have time (which i do this in the middle of chapter when there is too much supplies needed, but only once per week, which is more then enough)

 

[Wowwie]

Abuse of the system sure was not with the wholesaler Its with all the illegal trading, the wholesaler at least help beginners stay in the game remove the current features could back fire on Inno,
I feel Inno s focus on the trader is in the area, the wholesaler was costly enough as it was now its unbearable unless your a high end layer which I am not only lvl 4 player , on beta, I have other cities on en which I am higher, and actually would absolutely hate this new wholesaler. But my focus is on beginners
I think everyone should start over and have a reminder at how hard it is to start in Elvenar its not as easy as you think and with the new wholesaler it is a big discouragement .
You want to encourage your newbies but with all the new add ons and less map mobility.The trades that sit in the trader for days on end until someone mistakenly clicks on them Its no wonder many fold up and leave camp. Yes fellowships work to a point but some fellowships can not supply trades all the time only way else is to use the over priced wholesaler. To top if off once you upgrade your main hall your actually being penalized because now your lvl is higher and your goods are higher in the wholesaler . Is not a fan of the new wholesaler if not broken don t fix it . It is the trader aspect of the market that needs the work and could use a timer ,,please leave the wholesaler alone )

 

[DeletedUser1817]

The new wholesaler version is much improved compared to their first attempt, which, because of the random (or cyclic, I am not sure) selection of certain goods/currencies, made the system almost pointless (no guarantee that at a given time the available offers will allow you to dispose of excess currencies to buy useful goods)...

But, there are still two problems , in my opinion:
- the price increase rate is far too steep (after only five exchanges on one good/currency offer, the price, which was already high in the previous version, is already doubled; example: for a chapter III city, which exchange quantum is 40 for basic good units, with a basic price of 16k gold for 40 units - identical to the old constant price of 8k gold for 20 units, exchanging 200 marble, steel or planks units previously costed 80k gold, it now costs 16k+24k+32k+40k+48k = 160k gold),
- the quantity you can exchange is strictly linked to your Main Hall level, which sets an unreasonable limit on the wholesaler flexibility (without any direct connection - a loose one exists though, but more in terms of a min/max interval - to your MH level, and the associated preset exchange quantum, you can, at a specific time, have use of a very small amount of one of the available goods or a much larger quantity of another).

I can understand the need to limit the volume of daily exchanges with the wholesaler to a certain amount, proportional to the city advancement, to avoid abuse. Making price increase steeply after a certain amount of good has been exchanged on one day is a valid way to achieve that.

But why doing that on even very modest quantities, such as 200 basic goods for a chapter III city (which can likely easily product and need a few thousands basic good units a day)? Why immediately start increasing the price very steeply right after the first exchange, which likely only represents a few percents of its daily production?
It would seem much more reasonable to set a "normal daily exchange volume" for each MH level (for my example chapter III city, with MH level 6, say about 1,6k for basic goods, 400 for luxury goods, 100 for magic goods) and when you have exchanged more than your quota, then prices start increasing rapidly (for example: *4 until you reach twice your quota, *8 until you reach thrice your quota, ...). This would effectively prevent abuse, without impacting at all reasonable use.

As previous comments in this thread show that, for advanced players the wholesaler was more a sink for excess currencies, with a small benefit in goods, and not really essential, as they can rely on other, cheaper, ways to get the goods they need, so they will find ways to adapt. Unfortunately, as already said before, one way might very well be to stop or, at least, reduce NH .
The real problem though is for beginners who do not have always access to an active, or balanced, local market or a strong fellowship, for whom the wholesaler was a way to use their excess gold (less frequently boosted goods or supplies) to get goods they were temporarily lacking...

Finally, calling "wholesaler" a trader which has some of the worst price rates on the market was already kind of a paradox, but it might really be time to find another name for a trader from which the more you buy the worst rates you get ! Black market? Mafia trader? Thug?

 

[DeletedUser1877]

Shark I think is the term you seek. First cousin to the Loan Shark, we have the Trade Shark.

Uh,oh....I forsee the Loan Shark setting up a office in the trade room, to help you with your short term needs.

 

[SoggyShorts]

The only way to "abuse" the old wholesaler was to build a lot of level 1 workshops, and use the declinable quests a hundred times a day.
Wouldn't it make more sense then to fix the quests rather than wreck the wholesaler?

@everyone who said the declinable quests are perfectly fine, and should never be changed, this new wholesaler is your reward.

 

[DeletedUser1887]

I dont agree with this at all
i have 8 workshops, producing once per 3h + 9h overnight
barracks run nonstop since im fighter
and have supplies 1+ milion on any given moment
from my point of view its exactly the opposite, if you lack supplies, you have no clue how to play this game, when there is plenty of ways to get supplies now. its as easy as to get 1 milion supplies daily if you know what you are doing and have time (which i do this in the middle of chapter when there is too much supplies needed, but only once per week, which is more then enough)

I don't want to get into a thing... I was playful in my preface acknowledging it was a potentially controversial statement.

I would counter your argument with if you have extra supplies (to the tune of having enough to give to the wholesaler) then replace them with manufactories. Asides from producing less goods per day (trading supplies for goods is not going to equal the amount you'd get with a manufactory which is kind of the topic here), they're one of the worst ranking point buildings.

Since you're a fighter (as am I), Anytime I have surplus i'm pumping them into Armories to get Orcs that I can later convert into Orc Strategists... (Orc Strategists use Orcs instead of supplies to train). Since you're capable of producing units 24/7 I assume you have plenty of armories. You might point out, you'll still generate a surplus when your training the Orc Strategists since you will not be using tools... To which i'd then say... trust me at a later point in the game you'll once again be short on supplies and you'll appreciate having the ability to put your Mercenary Camp to turn them into Orc Strategists while you're upgrading your high demand supply buildings.

Plenty of ways?
There are visit neighbors, fellowship members, cycle manufactories as quickly as you can possibly can, keep magic academy pumping out PoP spells... am i missing something?

Coin Surplus is much more common because population is difficult to come by. If you're not a premium player (like me)... and you kick butt in the events... you'll end up with about 65% of your population from residences... I would use the word *plenty* to describe obtaining coins... not supplies but that is semantics.

 

[DeletedUser1657]

Abuse of the system sure was not with the wholesaler Its with all the illegal trading, the wholesaler at least help beginners stay in the game remove the current features could back fire on Inno,

But my focus is on beginners I think everyone should start over and have a reminder at how hard it is to start in Elvenar its not as easy as you think and with the new wholesaler it is a big discouragement.

I am curious what is an illegal trade? If the the trader accepts it how can it be illegal? Sure there are 0-1 star trades and cross tier trades that are a hot topic but either someone is happy to accept them or the person figures out eventually no one will take them. Most 1-star trades relate to exploration. There is also a place for 0-1 star trades, granted some game improvements in other areas could obsolete that need.

I have started more towns then most and I have no clue what anyone is saying that a new player needs the wholesaler, personally I think that is rubbish. I can use the wholesaler to abuse it and repeatable quests (which I have done on some new towns) and yep it makes things go faster. But I have also started towns without that system and going boost only from the start and had no trouble getting the goods I needed. I even have 2 towns right now in era 1/2 with no fellowship and boost only and even those towns are doing fine, surely I am not that lucky that every time I land in perfect neighbourhoods. More than happy for someone to point out what I am missing but I just don't see nor have I experienced it.

The only way to "abuse" the old wholesaler was to build a lot of level 1 workshops, and use the declinable quests a hundred times a day.

There are other abuses, in fact I read of a person recently who going to remove all T1 factories to just use the wholesaler for those goods, is that not abuse in the sense it is not what the designers intended? I think it is this sort of thing where a person doesn't need to trade with others that the developers are trying to curtail so people trade more which will benefit everyone. I do think the 50% hike is crazy though, wonder if they could make the % increase also scale with a town halls level as one usually has more excess cash the higher the level. Say level 1-5 MH is 10%, level 6-10 is 20%, etc.

Plenty of ways?
There are visit neighbors, fellowship members, cycle manufactories as quickly as you can possibly can, keep magic academy pumping out PoP spells... am i missing something?

You forgot wonders, quests, culture bonus and clicking till your finger falls off , certain wonders also save you a bunch of supplies due to "free" troops/orcs. I am more like @Dony but each to their own I say. The excess supplies I get are only on occasion during an era so it is never anything like the coins excess, now if I could sell them with the trader...hey

 

[SoggyShorts]

There are other abuses, in fact I read of a person recently who going to remove all T1 factories to just use the wholesaler for those goods

Would that work? What would they be replacing them with that they could use in the wholesaler?
Use the space to build more houses/workshops to get more coin/supplies to trade for T1? I can't imagine that's a net gain even with the old wholesaler.
For example
a level 23 planker makes 910 planks a day
a level 23 workshop makes 10,000 supplies a day
Assuming a 200% culture boost, that's 20,000 supplies
Assuming short production times, that's 40,000 supplies
40,000 supplies buys 1,000 marble. (with the old wholesaler)
Assuming you have ONE relic the 910 planks becomes 1,274 planks. at +700% boost 7,280
or
2 level 23 houses with 200% culture is around 350K coins, which buys you less than 1,000 T1

Without cross-tier trading or using the declinable quests I'm not sure how they could pull this off. Am I missing something?

 

[Heymrdiedier]

There are other abuses, in fact I read of a person recently who going to remove all T1 factories to just use the wholesaler for those goods, is that not abuse in the sense it is not what the designers intended?

I think its me who you are referring too (see reply 1 of this thread)

I did not attempt this, i was wondering if this was a possibility but never calculated if it would be viable.
I highly doubt it. But we had a shortage of wood in our fellowship so i decided to stop buying kp and only buy wood with my coins.
I noticed after a while i was almost as high on planks as i was on marble, wich is my bonus. But of course i was still trading marble to steel.

Marble as an elf used to be a small building, and you needed so many of them till you had a production that is comparable to what tier 2 or 3 produces. So all those marble manufactory felt like a drag, so i wondered maybe i should trash it and just do wholesaleman instead. With the boost of a blooming trading guild it seemed possible.

Ill do the calculations now, just for fun:
970 tier 1 for 200k with a max blooming trader guild and neighbourly help give you more then 2M, so 9700 tier 1 a day, that ment having more then 25! lvl 19 marble factorys. Or even now, 10 lvl 23 marble factorys. Thats a lot of factorys. And of course thats only from neighbourly help, theres more money in houses.

The extra space gained by removing tier 1s, would haven been filled in with extra tier 2/3 so i could downtrade it to tier 1 with my neighbourhood.

So it was nothing more then a wild idea, never put in practice, but seeing what i just calculated it wasnt that bad of an idea

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Heymrdiedier
Are you adding in the +700% boost to your tier 1?
your example of 10 level 23 marble should be making 72,800 a day on 24h cycles

72,800 > 9,700

 

[DeletedUser1657]

Would that work? What would they be replacing them with that they could use in the wholesaler?

I have no idea I haven't tried to figure it out. I would assume it would be focusing on coins possibly a min culture approach and ask for MH only help. Beats me how they planned to do it.

I think its me who you are referring too (see reply 1 of this thread)

I did not attempt this, i was wondering if this was a possibility but never calculated if it would be viable.

I wasn't thinking of you but do recall now you mentioned something too. There was a person on another forum who doesn't come to beta, now they know about the future update I don't expect they will try it either.

I also wonder how much the blooming trader wonder has played into the reason for this change.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

@Heymrdiedier
Are you adding in the +700% boost to your tier 1?
your example of 10 level 23 marble should be making 72,800 a day on 24h cycles

72,800 > 9,700

Aha of course i wasnt doing that yet, as you see, a not well tought through plan ;-)

 

[Heymrdiedier]

How long since the woodelf wonders were released?
WHAT ABOUT FIXING THE DAMN BUG THAT EXISTS SINCE IT"S INTRODUCTION!
It's still there, you still get shroom runes instead of enars or academie runes for help places 2+
dont you even think thats ridiculous?

Since theres no reply coming, i can only assume this : they are aware of it and are working on optimizing it allready.

You know just like they are working on optimaizing the combat AI since september...

The AI is currently not optimal in the new system yet - we are aware of this and are working on optimizing it already. We hope to be able to release this soon. But, for now, this is not a bug. Thanks for the report, though!

 

[DeletedUser1548]

You know just like they are working on optimaizing the combat AI since september...

I'm not sure about that...

And I still don't get why lots of non-problematic things are "optimised" while having so many interface/organizational problems... E.g. messages options (scrolling, bug when message is deleted, no tooltips while typing players' names, too small window, etc.), notifications, painful NH help system, cut city names when too long, outdated Wiki and many many others.

We live in the era of UX (customer experience). It's a grave mistake to set priorities to "low" for these elements. I presume it's set like that because none of this changed for a long time and we still get changes in a game mechanics (players didn't ask for).