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Discussion Upcoming Tournament Changes (pre-release)

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Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
We will see how it goes, but since the tournament is not the game, if players who over-specialized their cities for the tournament have to adjust to play more like the majority of players, it will be interesting. All I know is, in my Live city, I am almost done with chapter 16, I have one Fire Phoenix and one Brown Bear, all my AWs are level 12 or lower, I have not skipped a single optional research, and I easily do between 3k and 6k points per tournament, depending on which one it is.
 

Deleted User - 86438

Guest
I cringe when everyone mentions the bear or phoenix since that (along with temporary military buildings) is the only way to ramp up your power in the spire currently and, with these changes, the tournament as well. Yet those are the exact things that a new player does not have access to. I can pause progress on my research to dump points into AW, but I'll now be making the encounters more difficult as I do so. The same would be true for saving up diamonds (or purchasing) to get some more expansions to fit more buildings.

The repeated mention of scaling enemy squad sizes and catering cost independently seems better than a blanket percent based on total AW points (as it means a player heavily focused on one side of the game doesn't lock themselves out of the other), but it still feels like the decision on placing an AW should be based on the opportunity cost of the space vs building other AW's or buildings in that space, and not whether building the AW is a net negative on it's own. For upgrading wonders, the same issue exists. The fun decision is which of your wonders should you be upgrading, not whether it's safe to upgrade any at all.

My main concern, which will be easier to measure once we have an idea of the formula, is that this creates more incentive for play strategies that run counter to constant improvement or growth of your city. I already felt this way with the spire, but extending it to tournaments makes it quite a bit more punishing.

Making tournaments easier to get involved in for new players is great. But it is important that those new players have a carrot at the end of the stick for growing and improving their cities and not a decision about whether they can handle the penalties associated with each new AW built or improved or each new expansion placed. Expansions (along with chapter breakpoints) are the largest milestones I, as a new player, look forward to on the research tree and this does quite a bit to negate that.
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
I'm curious how it will change tasks like "solve 16 Tournament Encounters", because with this new setting it is 4x increased difficulty.
 

Deleted User - 86438

Guest
I'm curious how it will change tasks like "solve 16 Tournament Encounters", because with this new setting it is 4x increased difficulty.
Unless they state otherwise, I'd assume it will become "Solve 4 encounters or tournament provinces", as it has always previously aligned to 4x the amount when doing tournaments, likely due to the much smaller requirements vs. normal encounters. Confirmation on that would be welcomed though (or we'll find out on Tuesday on beta).
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
But the relic is also a problem.

Previously, could take 3 meetings on one task and leave the last one on the task to get relics. There should also be a reduction.
 
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DeletedUser3289

Guest
But the relic is also a problem.

Previously, could take 3 meetings on one task and leave the last one on the task to get relics. There should also be a reduction.
Now the last one is the only one. So no problem to get the relics.
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
well, it does remove an option


i'm not happy about a change that leads to all tournaments being the same.
How is this supposed to be for more variety? o_O
I’m also not exactly jubilant.
just saying adjusting events is not a major issue.
whereas The issue is the real issue :)
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
Another question. We have 5 different attack boosting AWs but most of us use 5x the same troops.
say I use 5x lr, the cumulative levels of all attack AWs play a role in making the tournament difficult. And only 1 aw aids towards the actual battle.
So, how should I swallow the pill : the video claims that upgrading aw increases benefits more than costs. But in this instance more AWs can beat the benefit.
Or probably some data analyst (@MinMax Gamer) can come up with a model that asks us to delete all military AWs (including free troops AWs) and say that would be the most efficient city, in terms of battling spire and tournament?
 

Deleted User - 86438

Guest
But the relic is also a problem.

Previously, could take 3 meetings on one task and leave the last one on the task to get relics. There should also be a reduction.
As a player that tries to optimize the events and finish them in a couple days, I totally see the fun in optimizing this way (instead of clearing 4 tourney provinces for a 16 tourney encounter target, clear 5 x 3 + 1 encounters, then use the completions for a later "gain relics" quest. However, completing all event quests in the timeline is trivially easy and probably not a major impact from this change.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I just watched the video again and there is a lot to be unimpressed about. Last tournament on beta I had 45 open provinces. That's 90 easier provinces compared to 27. On live I had 65 open provinces, which is 130 easier compared to 27. That difficulty map that you put out looks like you max out on provinces with the highest current difficulty level at 105 provinces. It looks to me that current level 4 difficulty is maxed at around 69 provinces. Current level 5 difficulty requires boost and it looks like it is maxed at 87 provinces.

Currently going out 45x2 would give a score of 2970, 198kp and at least 36 PoP spells, and 65x2 would give a score of 4290, 298kp and at least 56 PoP spells.

With what you've proposed by province 20 resources are going to be totally pulverized. With how the difficulty rating goes up it looks impossibly difficult to get past around province 25, at least with military. It looks to me that you are possibly going to anger players with even a tournament score of 3k, which on my live world is the first 200 players.

I actually liked the focus to be stronger on 3 goods each tournament. With planning, it always gives the opportunity to trade off goods that tend to be in excess. It also makes sense, planks tournament you use more planks. The issues you bring up are beginner issues that people learn to plan around.

You are hitting the mana too hard. You've slaughtered access to spells, which when used give mana, you are introducing it to the tournament and there are mana demands in AWs. Orc demands have exponentially increased through the chapters with only linear increases given from the armories and AW.

You would add to the tournament if there was a random selection of 5 resources for a tournament and you pick 3.

This looks like a massive slaughter.
 

Deleted User - 86438

Guest
Another question. We have 5 different attack boosting AWs but most of us use 5x the same troops.
say I use 5x lr, the cumulative levels of all attack AWs play a role in making the tournament difficult. And only 1 aw aids towards the actual battle.
So, how should I swallow the pill : the video claims that upgrading aw increases benefits more than costs. But in this instance more AWs can beat the benefit.
Or probably some data analyst (@MinMax Gamer) can come up with a model that asks us to delete all military AWs (including free troops AWs) and say that would be the most efficient city, in terms of battling spire and tournament?
So plugging in to MinMax Gamer's spreadsheet for spire squad size calculations, it looks like the attack-boosting wonders are roughly a wash under that formula.

Chapter 15 city from the spreadsheet, raising all 5 of those AW by 1 level increases squad size from 3175 to 3205, an increase of 0.95% while giving us 1% in increased damage across the board. For my chapter 5 city, it's basically the same, adding 5 AW levels goes from 289 to 293 for an increase of 1.38% (this probably looks worse than it actually is since rounding makes a big difference at smaller squad sizes). Also, that damage boost is additive, not multiplicative for each level, so it's actually a smaller and smaller total percent increase each time as well.

Damage and squad size are not the same thing, obviously and the difference 1% damage makes in a fight can vary quite a bit (if it's enough to one-shot an enemy mage before it gets off a debuff it's highly valuable, if it doesn't increase the number of units killed in an attack or only contributes to overkill on a kill shot it's effectively wasted). But in a general sense, we pay for a slight increase in damage with an equivalent increase in the troop cost of battle.

Of course those wonders have additional impacts - faster training from Needles and VS, orcs from HF, mana from DA, troops from toads. But since the damage looks like it would break even everywhere outside of scouting and completing provinces, there's whole lot less value in those wonders.
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
So plugging in to MinMax Gamer's spreadsheet for spire squad size calculations, it looks like the attack-boosting wonders are roughly a wash under that formula.

Chapter 15 city from the spreadsheet, raising all 5 of those AW by 1 level increases squad size from 3175 to 3205, an increase of 0.95% while giving us 1% in increased damage across the board. For my chapter 5 city, it's basically the same, adding 5 AW levels goes from 289 to 293 for an increase of 1.38% (this probably looks worse than it actually is since rounding makes a big difference at smaller squad sizes). Also, that damage boost is additive, not multiplicative for each level, so it's actually a smaller and smaller total percent increase each time as well.

Damage and squad size are not the same thing, obviously and the difference 1% damage makes in a fight can vary quite a bit (if it's enough to one-shot an enemy mage before it gets off a debuff it's highly valuable, if it doesn't increase the number of units killed in an attack or only contributes to overkill on a kill shot it's effectively wasted). But in a general sense, we pay for a slight increase in damage with an equivalent increase in the troop cost of battle.

Of course those wonders have additional impacts - faster training from Needles and VS, orcs from HF, mana from DA, troops from toads. But since the damage looks like it would break even everywhere outside of scouting and completing provinces, there's whole lot less value in those wonders.
Especially, given we have a fire Phoenix, wonder effects can actually counter our city efficiency. And more countered, as only one troop type is utilized in a battle.
150%(fire Phoenix, base 100) to 151% damage increase is 0.66% increase and that warrants a squad size increase.
with limited spire, I can understand. Probably too much for an unlimited tourney?
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
I've made a wild speculation analysis commentary on the incoming changes (and forum comments) for my FS. Instead of typing in a bunch of text that will be obsolete very soon, I decided to make a couple of videos which are really podcasts (e.g. there is not much to see there, you may just listen to it while doing other things). I go through the announcement and some forum comments, and provide my initial reaction. I figured some other people may also find it useful ;)
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
So plugging in to MinMax Gamer's spreadsheet for spire squad size calculations, it looks like the attack-boosting wonders are roughly a wash under that formula.

Chapter 15 city from the spreadsheet, raising all 5 of those AW by 1 level increases squad size from 3175 to 3205, an increase of 0.95% while giving us 1% in increased damage across the board. For my chapter 5 city, it's basically the same, adding 5 AW levels goes from 289 to 293 for an increase of 1.38% (this probably looks worse than it actually is since rounding makes a big difference at smaller squad sizes). Also, that damage boost is additive, not multiplicative for each level, so it's actually a smaller and smaller total percent increase each time as well.

Damage and squad size are not the same thing, obviously and the difference 1% damage makes in a fight can vary quite a bit (if it's enough to one-shot an enemy mage before it gets off a debuff it's highly valuable, if it doesn't increase the number of units killed in an attack or only contributes to overkill on a kill shot it's effectively wasted). But in a general sense, we pay for a slight increase in damage with an equivalent increase in the troop cost of battle.

Of course those wonders have additional impacts - faster training from Needles and VS, orcs from HF, mana from DA, troops from toads. But since the damage looks like it would break even everywhere outside of scouting and completing provinces, there's whole lot less value in those wonders.

There are a lot of wonders that add nothing to either the tournaments nor the spire, yet they still add difficulty to those parts of the game.
Just how "usefull" is for example the spire library? how does some KP and ranking points benefit you in any way shape or form?
Yet why does it add difficulty?
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
Let’s see... I would be okay if a very (very very very ;) mild version of the spire formula gets popped into the tourney.
The exact spire formula in tourney, is what’s triggering so much angst.
 

palmira

Well-Known Member
I am waiting to see how the next tournament goes, the prospectives are not bright but we have to wait and see. If MinMax is right it will be a slaughter very early on but I am curious to see how the catering will change. Basically I never catered because the prices were staggering when catering might be helpful and when it was affordable the fights were easy. As a result I have a hefty amount of mercs with a very small number of factories here on beta and over 41 m each t1-t3 live
 
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palmira

Well-Known Member
There are a lot of wonders that add nothing to either the tournaments nor the spire, yet they still add difficulty to those parts of the game.
Just how "usefull" is for example the spire library? how does some KP and ranking points benefit you in any way shape or form?
Yet why does it add difficulty?
And the ruins, lighthouse, around half the AWs do nothing to one's battle skills but they increase exponentially the difficulty of the spire and it seems from now on also of the tournament. And I also can't figure out the reason expansions and specially the number of provinces should penalize "older" players. But as I said, I want to see what happens next tourney
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
And the ruins, lighthouse, around half the AWs do nothing to one's battle skills but they increase exponentially the difficulty of the spire and it seems from now on also of the tournament. And I also can't figure out the reason expansions and specially the number of provinces should penalize "older" players. But as I said, I want to see what happens next tourney

They still add something in space, which could return a value in production which could be used in negotiation.
Tournaments is not 100% fighting, there are more options and when you combine those options you get the best results.

the only agrument there is how much do the add and how much do they cost in difficulty
 
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