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Discussion Upcoming Tournament Changes (pre-release)

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Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Dear Humans and Elves,

Please see the announcement about the Tournament changes that we have planned for next week on Beta here and let us know what you think about it. Also, please feel free to invite your Fellowship members from Live to come and try it out in a few days, so we can gather as much feedback as possible!

Kind regards,
Your Elvenar Team
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
Great, so we'll also be penalized for leveling wonders :)

Then we don't have to play tournaments, because there's no other reason than leveling wonders.
 

iDavis

Well-Known Member
So for fighters with thousands of points per week will tournaments get significantly harder - I can be very fine with that, but these two:
- individual rewards - I will wait for release to see how exactly they changed and how changed the system of their "improving" while playing provinces, but I´m expecting to be disatisfied here
- unit types - I´m not sure how different it will be and how random they will appear, but I´ll probably miss the strategy "preparation for next tourney" if changes are too much and the whole thing become unpredictable
 
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RedBlue

Member
unit types - I´m not sure how different it will be and how random they will appear, but I´ll probably miss the strategy "preparation for next tourney" if changes are too much and the whole thing become unpredictable
It is the new elvenar from 9 months+, no more strategy, only random ^^ for the game designer, random is fun !
 

Brummbaer

Well-Known Member
Which impact has the new tournament strategy (4 encounters reduced to one) for the events, asking for " solve x encounters or 4x tournament encounters?
Also I'm NOT impressed to have the possiblility to loose all troops per autofight based on battlefield enviroments which blocks the way to the enemies. :(
 

DeletedUser1953

Guest
I hope if the tournament becomes random that you will change crafted military building by +25-50% All unit damage (and +25%HP as existing) ?! Or you really dislike strategy in this game ?

We see that Inno is EU games, you raise your production by 10% and the game "taxes" 50% ^^
 
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Richord

Well-Known Member
CHANGES: good.
BUT
1 fight instead of 4; bad for me. 1 mistake=a failure worth 4. So my mistakes are punished up to 400%.
I need a preview of the battlefield to not waste my troops.

chest 11-19. why would we need so many RR's? and why just 10kp for the massive amount of extra points needed IF it indeed goes up to 161k points?

Having to think of 9 different tactics instead of 1? damn. I don't think 1 fight instead of 4 saves time, because you make me having to enter the province to see what i'm fighting AND i've to figure out the units every fight....

edit: can somebody tell me (with facts) what to do with optional squadsize research? - does it indeed not matter for the tournament? and (not sure) does it have effect on other parts of the game?
 
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Dony

King of Bugs
Issue #1
While it may sound good to have all types of goods for negotiating, for casual FS which aimed to do 10 chests once per month or once per 2 months it will be horrible, they were preparing usually 4 specific goods in the past now they will need 13 goods else they can forget about 10 chests ever

Issue #2
Negotiators with advanced cities on the end game will have as hard time to negotiate or even harder then before, no change for them in this regard, i see from the video its spire formula all over again, that means they will see 10 mils coins, 1 mil supplies, 30k orc per 1 encounter to negotiate for a reward of 4 relics and 1 PoP spell, you can guess how many they will negotiate and leave.

Issue #3
You are tying all to city progress but ignore some big contributors to it and thats Phoenixes and Bears, 1 Fire Phoenix at 10 stage is better then 5x level 35 combat wonders and yet it has zero impact on difficulty, every stage of this evolving buldings should count as 1 wonder level the least.

Issue #4
Extra chests are not worth at all in my opinion for end game players, restoration spell are pretty much useless with nerfing production event buildings, there is no reason to upgrade them (upgrading them to increase output by 0 or barely any increase doesnt make sense), and hybrid buildings will become useless from now on aswell, you dont want pure pop/cul buildings because you introduced AW which doesnt buff them compared to residences, main goal should be magic residence for all now and for that you dont need restoration spells. Hybrids doesnt produce coins which you will need now everywhere. It comes dont to 10 AW KP, but since AWs are factor for difficulty everywhere I am actually looking for which wonder to delete and not which to upgrade. I will need to be very picky. I think its about time that Teleportation spell should be usable on wonders and evolution buildings with some rules, for example 1 teleportation spell for 1 wonder level, level 30 would require 30 teleportation spells, reset current KP investment so you dont need to store that data anymore and give it a 1-2 weeks of cooldown to be placed back to city to prevent any abuse. Same for evolving building with 10 stages to use 10 restoration spells, i just dont want to delete building in which i invested real money to get, i want to store it.

Issue #5
Fighting against 5 random enemies like in spire leads to 0 preparation for that casual fighters, instead of training 1 unit type they will need to train all of them, for early/mid ragne players that will be very difficult for them, for players without bears its even worse, this change doesnt help this type of players, they are ignored here. This type of players dont want or cant do 10 chest often, they want to have fun from time to time, learning how to fight will be even bigger problem then before. If new platers wanted to learn how to use specific unit, they could do so in tournaments types, they had many of the same type so it was easier. Now every encounter for them will be different, much harder to get used to unit composition. And we all know how "great" world map fighting is balanced in chapter 3-5 to learn there instead.

Fighting itself issues
Long time ovelooked isses will hit very hard

Issue #6
Mistwalker
With not difficulty cap, 1 mistwalker in later provinces will 1 shot 1 squad before we can even make any movement, so we start battle as 4x5, with 2 mistwalkers its 3x5
So statement that fights are 5x5 is not true, Initiative should be changed to 20 immediately, implementing map preview was ignored for years with this high difficulty we must know exactly how terrain looks like and loosing 40k units on map preview just because 90k mistlwakers will 1shot it is retarded to say the least. Either implement map preview or nerf mistwalkers.

Issue #7
Damage formula itself
Right now the more damaged squad is the more damage they do per 1 unit which is still alive, facing armies which are 200% more or 300% more then my army means that even if we drop that unit from 100k to 10k it will deal incredibly high damage to us, it was fair with fixed difficulty/setups, its not fair with all this randomness anymore.

Issue #8
Competition
Basicly players who meet less mistwalkers will save much more units and since appearance of mistwalkers are random, its not fair play mechanics to compare between players

Issue #9
Melee units
In current form they can be just removed from the game unless you drasticly buff their defences, our melees will either be killed on first sight on later provinces or they will kill themself with retaliation damage of enemy units. Retaliation itself will be a very big factor on big armies and avoiding it for every single cost will be mandatory

Issue #10
Combat buildings
Enlightened Light Range and Magnificent Mage Multiplier are pretty much useless or worthless because their effectivness will drop from 90% in old model to max 20% in new model. It felt great if you could place 1 of those buildings and it could be usefull in almost all fights. What will happen right now is that you will see in first encounter 3 random heavy melee/ranged, you place MMM building to fight this composition and next 4-5 fights you will see just dogs, light ranged, mages, then 1 fight with heavy melee/ranged and so on, it feels stupid that so rare buildings will have so few usage, they should be looked at and reworked, for example give second buff attached to them (like mage + heavy range and light range/heavy melee, you can ignore melee here anyway) to be usefull at least in 40% of the time
It all comes down to %HP buildings which will be usefull in every case no matter the composition

And 1 bonus note, they mention that it was hard for players to understand squad sizes in battle, but it was never their fault, it was rather fault on game design side which they were unable to properly explain in game through tooltips or helps how it works.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
edit: can somebody tell me (with facts) what to do with optional squadsize research? - does it indeed not matter for the tournament? and (not sure) does it have effect on other parts of the game?
every military AW which produce units are affected with SSU, and you want to research all optional SSU to get more units now
 

HolyElf

Well-Known Member
More interested to know how the difficulty scales at 50,60+ provinces. Kinda nerfing aspirations of veterans in the name of evening out / balancing ? Or is the difficulty same as 6th round on 10th province ?
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
To achieve this, we will rework the way the costs in Tournaments are calculated. Up until now, they were directly linked to your Squad Size, meaning that any Squad Size Upgrade technology, both the mandatory and optional ones, would result in higher costs. This will be abolished and instead we will base the costs on a series of progression factors, which involve city development and researches in general. However, one key difference is that we want to ensure that every progression factor will still bring you more in benefits, than it would "cost" you in terms of added costs in the Tournaments. This means that, while the progression in the Tournaments becomes more costly as your city grows over time, the increase is nowhere near the amount of resources the progressed city will be able to produce extra thanks to the progress made.


I have a very hard time believing this.
When we consider how the spire has been calculated which claimed the same, but inreality is horrible by natute. and to show that let me explain.
and shoutout to @MinMax Gamer to figure it out.

1594468804709.png

or the more simplified version using a 700% base relic bonus
1594468845414.png


Problem 1, exponential curves:
1.0042^M this is an exponential curve, this means to keep the game up to par, everything in the game needs to have an exponential curve is wel.
Because of this the number will rise faster and faster up as the game progresses.
Those curves look like this:
1594469365655.png

And we already have entered the steep part of this curve which means it will accelerate upwards faster and faster.

Problem 2, the lever effect:
The lever effect is another problem that makes balancing with a formula like this a nightmare.
this formula has 4 values greater than 1, this means that if you influence one number it's effect is multiplied by 3 other values and as there values are bigger than one it's again a value you cannot control.

A spire formula should have been made like this:
  • Base difficulty based on expansions and research, these values should be liniear and easily controllable and if needed easy adjusted when a new chapter comes out.
  • A difficulty reduction beased on the relic bonus
  • A added difficulty for the wonders to a limited extend where it still makes sense,
  • Start with a max difficulty based on the above parameters, then work your way back.
Based on this a formula would look like this(using some arbitrary numbers)
  • Relic = 0.3 +(relic boosts / 10) example: 0.3+700%*10% = 0.3+7*0.1 = 0.3+0.7 = 1, this way a relic bonus never creates a lever effect while keeping the original intend
  • Base difficulty: Value * research + value * expansion, this creates a liniar difficulty, and the relic bonus formula can be used to adjust difficulty for the beginning players.
  • Wonder difficulty: Wonder levels * value= Y, if Y >1 Y=1, how many wonder levels you need to reach the max difficulty is then determined by the development team. There is a clear limit where wonders in general do no longer add advatages to the spire, so keeping the difficulty grow while there is no advantage left. for example the Spire Library adds nothing to the game that makes the spire more easy, yet it does increase it's difficulty, and there are many wonders like that in this game.
In the end a fomulat looks like this
Relic reduction(max 1) * (research + expansion difficulty) * wonder modifier(max 1 again) = Difficulty

Using a basis like this makes sure that things never get out of control like they are now. there is a defined limit how difficult the spire could become at a certain point in the game, and during the entire process you as developers are in control, unlike the current formula that runs wild when you add new things.


Problem 3: Punishing paying players
This is also a part of the lever effect, I am already in the situation that buying premium has a worse effect on my spire difficulty then then not buying it. the value that a (premium) expansion adds depends on 3 other factors which makes no sense, it adds "x" power, and not 3 or 20 times "x".
Premium is a bonus to make thing easier, it's 1 of your sources of income, but yet you build a formula that punishes people that actually buy them by making there game more difficult as an end result, this incentive people NOT to buy premium. this sounds from a commercial standpoint just wrong.

Problem 4: Tournaments, a new formula.
The same people who came up with the former formula, came up with a new one for the tournaments, this gives me beyond little confidence they will actually achieve what they say, and just like the tower formula this will be obfuscated for a while with voodoo and magic untill someone like MinMax gamer figures it out, by that time the damage has already been done.

Knowing I am most likely like the spire formula at the wrong end of the stick I am seriously consideren to quit. I already bummed once again I actually spend some money again in this game not long ago. as once again I am likely punisched for it.


Ps: the thing dony just mentioned shock me as well, no longer can we predict what the enemy units will be?
You promised when the tower came out you would not change the tournaments as many of use were really scared about it.
This promise is now broken, and for the worse, as usual you give us 1 bone (4 to 1 battle) but then take away the entire cow we had to our exposal.

I am seriously considering quitting this game if this continues in this type of implementation.
I have seen many changes to elvenar, and I have never even considered thinking about it, usually I just adapt, but this change seriously makes me thinking about it as I have no clue how I could adapt to this seemingly horror.
The tournaments are one of the things I really enjoy and it seems it's not changing but completely taken away from me.
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
More interested to know how the difficulty scales at 50,60+ provinces. Kinda nerfing aspirations of veterans in the name of evening out / balancing ? Or is the difficulty same as 6th round on 10th province ?
I don't mind if we can't get past 40 provinces as long as it makes sense. as stated above my main problem is that it does not make sense.
 

HolyElf

Well-Known Member
Welcoming changes : less clicks + removing optional SS effects
Unwelcome changes : difficulty scaling limiting veterans’ aspirations + punishing players who paid ( if the spire scenario continues )
 

PrimroseSylvia

Well-Known Member
I´ll probably miss the strategy "preparation for next tourney" if changes are too much and the whole thing become unpredictable
I have the feeling that players requests to train different units in different military buildings at the same time will become more pressing.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
No more easy to get power of provision spells. Not a big issue in latest chapters, but pre-constructs chapters would suffer.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
as we will start requesting Coins and Supplies
Do you realy think that coins & supplies requirements from Spire are not enough to make end game cities bankrupt? So now we won't be able to negotiate in tournaments because NOT ENOUGH COINS (AND/OR SUPPLIES) (even getting 100% coins recipe every 6 hours might not be enough!).

Sentient Goods will never be requested for the Tournaments
At least something that won't make us bankrupt.

you are really far into the Tournament (roughly 5000 points' worth), which is typically reached only by the most hardcore and veteran Tournament players
Someone has been sleeping for at least a year. Most hardcore and veteran tournament players make 15K+ points not 5K!

Additionally, the enemies will become more randomized
I absolutely hate this! Random is not fun it just removes any strategy from a strategic game!


Hi guys,

Thank you for taking the time to write such extensive feedback. Please keep that coming, for this is something we can work with!
We can only hope you will listen this time, otherwise mass quit wave is coming soon (unless your goal is to get rid of the end game players).
And this is not an empty statement if even players like CrazyWizzard are considering quitting.

This change might realy make tournaments unwinable by endgame players, and mid game (early settlement chapters like the Orcs) players with not so high negotiating costs might again dominate tournaments.
 

HolyElf

Well-Known Member
We can only hope you will listen this time, otherwise mass quit wave is coming soon (unless your goal is to get rid of the end game players).
And this is not an empty statement if even players like CrazyWizzard are considering quitting.
Probably that might even benefit the company. I guess mid gamers are more potential buyers as they see something ahead than end gamers.
 
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