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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

Aeva

Well-Known Member
That depends on how far you go,
If you go <25 - planks is ~same as marble/steel, but if you go 40+ marble/steel becomes way easier. You can boost your main fighting unit for marble/steel (lr/ma) with expiring buildings, but can't do it with hr for planks.
I go for 40 twice, then 32 three times and whatever I think is usefull for 6 stars. I did that in marble and steel and I'm on my way in planks. And I'm fighting, lower provinces/stars mostly auto and the more difficult part manual. Which is now by the way...
 

Dreadlust

Member
That depends on how far you go,
If you go <25 - planks is ~same as marble/steel, but if you go 40+ marble/steel becomes way easier. You can boost your main fighting unit for marble/steel (lr/ma) with expiring buildings, but can't do it with hr for planks.
Besides this, you have to take into account that both Marble's and Steel's tournaments have less MWs, and a considerable part of them start the fights obstructed by obstacles. In the Planks tournament there are many more MWs and there is +95% chance of receiving those first shots because they have free movement with these terrains. LR/MA expiring buildings can't do much if you start so many fights with your units missing half their HP. The difficulty of this tournament depends mainly on how many UUU and DA you can afford in order to resist the almost entirely guaranteed MW's first shots.
 

Aeva

Well-Known Member
It also depends how big losses @Aeva had on marble/steel
variables are many
Not bigger then I thought I would. That said, I changed my gameplan from the start of the new tournament. I lowered the number of provinces in the lower starlevels and upped in the higher ones. The endresult stays the same in points. But I use twice as much troops, which I prepared for because I thought I would. So big losses, but sustainable.

I almost forgot: @CrazyWizard has more then twice as many points as I have, thought on the server the difference is place 2 and 7 in tournament.
 
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Karvest

Well-Known Member
I got ~same score as at marble, but lost x2 more troops (with the same amount of DAs used).
I don't see the point of doing more than 3 provinces up to 2* on top of 5* provinces. It's cheaper to get next 5* than next 2* when you have that gap.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
made some graphics from my tournament data if anyone is interested to knowView attachment 7950
Did you notice that in enemiess that are not predominant in each tournament, units we used to get as enemies on old tournament always appear slighly more ? I'm wondering if this is just a coincidence, or if there's something like a small chance to get a typical old tournament-like enemy setup.
 

Attachments

ErestorX

Well-Known Member
Even with us on the German server, opinions are split in two. On the one hand, the tournament professionals who have dealt intensively with the matter in the past few weeks are of course not enthusiastic. They are forced to try to adapt to the new circumstances - under great criticism.
My german fellowship so far made >200K points in all 3 tournaments. Before the change we scored high as well but only rarely that high. The main difference is that I don't see really low scores anymore, the scores of the the top tournament players haven't changed much.

BUT manual fighting (=more time) is needed to reach individual scores >20K and all other top tournament players in my fs have already wrecked a lot of wonders. Other players are waiting but have already plans to do the same. Some have also decided to stop research.

Players who are focussed on the overall ranking on the other hand had to accept that they won't be able to score as high as the others in the tournament but have kept their wonders and will continue to research to the end. In the past we had a player who was number 1 in the overall ranking and managed to win 5 out of 9 tournaments most of the time. That won't be possible anymore. She decided for the tournament and against the overall ranking.

And that is exactly the choice that is necessary know - focus on tournament and stop to play the rest of elvenar or forget about being in the top 5 of the tournament ranking and continue to play elvenar. I still feel that it is a shame that Inno didn't fix this before release. A very simple improvement would have been to penalyze only the first 300-350 wonder levels. That would allow those who decide to focus on the tournament at least to keep their wonders and use the WP from the tournament for filling more wonders. In addition a chapter 18 (17 would have been better) that is attractive enough to make everybody want to finish it would be all that is needed to keep everybody mostly happy. For the first round of nine tournaments the new tournament alone is probably enough incentive to keep playing but in the long run the best option seems to be to look for a different game! Very sad.
 
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edeba

Well-Known Member
This feedback thread from the US server is very good, https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/tournament-changes-community-feedback-and-data.25576/

People have really written extremely good reviews of what they like, don't like, how it has improved and not improved their game.

My reduced difficulty proposal would address some of this stuff, like:
  1. it was better when players could do 25x2 or 15x3, or 11x4 or 8x5, or 6x6 to get 1600 pts according to their RL schedule. (SoggyShorts)
  2. I loved it in the beginning, maybe because I was thrilled with one click instead of four ... I set up my towns based on what each chapter needs...not what the tourney will take from me. This tourney system is now taking all of my resources, each week. :( (CiraKelley)
  3. We shouldn't have to cherry pick developed Wonders, or worry about the feasibility of advancing past mid point of chapter 15. Also, I now worry about every expansion I place, and I won't ever BUY another. (Lelanya)
  4. I have the capacity to place 5-6 expansions right now and up to 10 soon, but I am not placing them ... I can't do tournaments on mobile anymore. (Myosmar)
  5. The motivation to progress through the ages is gone. ... The two real benefits use to be new AW's and higher tournament rewards. Now this growth is punished while it will take much more time and effort to research through a chapter. ... Most importantly- I no longer enjoy the game. Im struggling with the 'sunk cost fallacy' right now. While I want to walk away and I don't enjoy the game I spent so much time and energy on the game that I dont want to give up. I do hope you guys are able to make the game fun again. (Swankey Bob)
Premium expansions need to be removed from the calculation and there needs to be an adjustment to the AW penalty. Not counting the first 5 levels and excluding some of the AWs and some should be weighted in at half the penalty. I thought my idea of including only the highest of any two AWs from each chapter would go a long way towards fixing the massive imbalanced of this new tournament.

Is there no one left on the Elvenar development teams that remembers that AW only marginally caught on until they were improved and the new tournament has reversed their benefit, and even causes some to be a net drain.
 

karld

Member
A while ago I had written how I loved the Spire because of all the time instants and other prizes, but disliked how all the time instants it gave had allowed people to create so many troops that tournaments were more about how many provinces people had available to fight in than how well they fought. I also bemoaned how this made manual fighting pretty pointless since folks could get so far with autofight that manual fighting provided little benefit. I missed how a smaller player might be able to differentiate themself from the crowd by manual fighting and it wasn't just about having a gazillion open provinces. So it turns out that Inno actually seemed to have paid attention and made it so doing much over 50 provinces was near impossible, thus lessening the the possibility that someone could guarantee #1 in tournament just by virtue of having scouted more provinces. Also the value of manual fighting has increased. All this and now I hate it. Okay, I don't exactly hate it. I love that each province is only 1 fight instead of 4. It's just that I miss being able to do 5 rounds of 50-60 provinces and collecting 500-600 KP. Now I can do about 6 rounds of 37 provinces with a lot of manual fighting. A lot more work for a lot less benefit. It turns out that even with all the manual fighting my overall ranking in the tournaments is actually lower.

File this under "Be careful what you wish for."
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
This feedback thread from the US server is very good, https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/tournament-changes-community-feedback-and-data.25576/

People have really written extremely good reviews of what they like, don't like, how it has improved and not improved their game.

My reduced difficulty proposal would address some of this stuff, like:
  1. it was better when players could do 25x2 or 15x3, or 11x4 or 8x5, or 6x6 to get 1600 pts according to their RL schedule. (SoggyShorts)
  2. I loved it in the beginning, maybe because I was thrilled with one click instead of four ... I set up my towns based on what each chapter needs...not what the tourney will take from me. This tourney system is now taking all of my resources, each week. :( (CiraKelley)
  3. We shouldn't have to cherry pick developed Wonders, or worry about the feasibility of advancing past mid point of chapter 15. Also, I now worry about every expansion I place, and I won't ever BUY another. (Lelanya)
  4. I have the capacity to place 5-6 expansions right now and up to 10 soon, but I am not placing them ... I can't do tournaments on mobile anymore. (Myosmar)
  5. The motivation to progress through the ages is gone. ... The two real benefits use to be new AW's and higher tournament rewards. Now this growth is punished while it will take much more time and effort to research through a chapter. ... Most importantly- I no longer enjoy the game. Im struggling with the 'sunk cost fallacy' right now. While I want to walk away and I don't enjoy the game I spent so much time and energy on the game that I dont want to give up. I do hope you guys are able to make the game fun again. (Swankey Bob)
Premium expansions need to be removed from the calculation and there needs to be an adjustment to the AW penalty. Not counting the first 5 levels and excluding some of the AWs and some should be weighted in at half the penalty. I thought my idea of including only the highest of any two AWs from each chapter would go a long way towards fixing the massive imbalanced of this new tournament.

Is there no one left on the Elvenar development teams that remembers that AW only marginally caught on until they were improved and the new tournament has reversed their benefit, and even causes some to be a net drain.
Well time to be the wet blanket again I guess :p
While there´s merit in both the comments from @edeba and the rewiews quoted, I´ll ad a little twist to them all.
1) ppl can still choose different province/stars comboes to reach 1600 points. This is the low end of performance. Here the star-level of enemy troops have a great inpact. So lownumber-highstar provinces would often give fewer losses (numerically) than highnumber-lowstar provinces. The blocking factor to do 25x2 now is mainly difficulty. Before it was lack of troops. It HAS become harder to do 25x2 and easier to do 6x6, but the 25x2 wasn´t just a walk in the park for low-performance players before.
2) This is due to catering becomming a more viable solution.
3) It may come as a shock, but I totally agree :D
4) I agree on the placing of expansions part. The "I can´t do tournament on mobile anymore" part on the other hand o_O Tournament HAS gotten harder on higher levels. So it´s only reasonable, that ppl skilled in manual combat, would do that. In the old tournament ppl, who wasn´t totally overpowered, would also feel compelled to do manual combat to increase their score. More ppl feel the need to do manual combat to get a good score, but there´s nothing new about it.
5) This hit it spot-on. This is the problem INNO has to adress. Players should never feel, that they get punished for progression. INNO has the great advantage, that the wast majority of players don´t know they´re getting punished for progressing. So here INNOs low information level really pays of. If I hadn´t read this tread, then I also would have been an ignorant to the punishment. Just like I was about the punishment, that SS carried in old tournament. I heard rumors about it, but nothing solid. And there´s many rumors out there. Most of it total bogus. So I just wondered why my tournament performance didn´t improve. Overall the new tournament has been a huge boost for me. I should be very happy, and I am. But it tingles my sense of fairness, that the top players get punished so hard. I must admit, that I didn´t take their concerns serious, about not being able to compete against lesser developed players. In my defense: there were a lot of whining and groundless speculations going on. But I should´ve seen past the fustration, and you have my apology :oops:
As far goes getting tired of a game, but don´t want to stop due to energy (and/or money) spent. Oh been there many times. Just remember it should be fun to play, and sometimes you just need a break. Nothing wrong with that. I´ve had a break from both elvenar and WoW, and are playing both again. The reason for taking a break was the same in both games: to much monotone activity. In WoW it was endless dailies on endless alts. In elvenar it was to much time spend on giving NH. INNO has made NH quicker, and now makes tournament quicker too. That greatly increase my joy of playing. I know players compelled to do manual combat disagree on the faster tournament part, but for me it´s faster.
@edeba) I agree on both removal of premium expansions from calculation, and lowering AW penalty. I don´t agree with your surgestions to lower AW penalty. IMO the weight of each level should be the same, but way lower than it is now.
- Not counting the first 5 levels of each wonder: it has the merit, that in a way you pay for it with the space used. But I don´t think you should be rewarded for building lowlevel wonders instead of other buildings.
- weighing the wonders differently (even if it`s only 2 or 3 categories), will IMO be a logistic nightmare, that´ll only evolve into endless discusions about "why does this wonder weigh harder than that wonder".
- Only making the highest wonder from each chapter count: well you´re past the "different weight" discussion. It´s a clear rule. But let´s say a player got a L30 MM. He can build a L30 crystal lighthouse with no penalty. But if he decides to build a L20 throne, then he gets hammered. I fail to see how that in any way is fair.

To be honest I think, that there´s only one fair way to exclude AW-levels from the equation: deduct a set number depending on chapter or mandatory research.
I still think the best solution would be to drastically reduce the weight of all AW levels.
But if INNO does this, then they may feel compelled to hinder tournament in another way. So pay heed to the below ;)

A while ago I had written how I loved the Spire because of all the time instants and other prizes, but disliked how all the time instants it gave had allowed people to create so many troops that tournaments were more about how many provinces people had available to fight in than how well they fought. I also bemoaned how this made manual fighting pretty pointless since folks could get so far with autofight that manual fighting provided little benefit. I missed how a smaller player might be able to differentiate themself from the crowd by manual fighting and it wasn't just about having a gazillion open provinces. So it turns out that Inno actually seemed to have paid attention and made it so doing much over 50 provinces was near impossible, thus lessening the the possibility that someone could guarantee #1 in tournament just by virtue of having scouted more provinces. Also the value of manual fighting has increased. All this and now I hate it. Okay, I don't exactly hate it. I love that each province is only 1 fight instead of 4. It's just that I miss being able to do 5 rounds of 50-60 provinces and collecting 500-600 KP. Now I can do about 6 rounds of 37 provinces with a lot of manual fighting. A lot more work for a lot less benefit. It turns out that even with all the manual fighting my overall ranking in the tournaments is actually lower.

File this under "Be careful what you wish for."
So beware. Sometimes INNO listens.....
 

karld

Member
4) I agree on the placing of expansions part. The "I can´t do tournament on mobile anymore" part on the other hand o_O Tournament HAS gotten harder on higher levels. So it´s only reasonable, that ppl skilled in manual combat, would do that. In the old tournament ppl, who wasn´t totally overpowered, would also feel compelled to do manual combat to increase their score. More ppl feel the need to do manual combat to get a good score, but there´s nothing new about it.
I think you have taken the "I can´t do tournament on mobile anymore" part too lightly. Many people primarily or even exclusively use the mobile version of Elvenar. This means that someone who could do 5 rounds of 50 provinces in the past using autofight is now faced with much harder and costly fights PLUS they don't even have the option of manual fighting or even scouting a fight to pick optimal troops for autofight based on the terrain. Their only option is to pick some troops and hope for the best and often the best isn't very good at all. I think such a player might very possibly be unable to do even half of what they did before.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
I think you have taken the "I can´t do tournament on mobile anymore" part too lightly. Many people primarily or even exclusively use the mobile version of Elvenar. This means that someone who could do 5 rounds of 50 provinces in the past using autofight is now faced with much harder and costly fights PLUS they don't even have the option of manual fighting or even scouting a fight to pick optimal troops for autofight based on the terrain. Their only option is to pick some troops and hope for the best and often the best isn't very good at all. I think such a player might very possibly be unable to do even half of what they did before.
I intentionally use the mobile app for the tournament because it is faster, and because I never manual fight anyway. And I am getting 5k+ points per week in the new system on the US server. Even in my chapter 7 Beta city, I use the app more than the browser for the tournament, but I don't have more than 18 provinces for any of the 9 types yet, so that is pretty easy right now.
 

Jackluyt

Well-Known Member
I have never lost this number of troops on day four of a tournament as this Crystal tourney. It is worse than the St Valentine's Day Massacre.



I wonder if some programmer in Hamburg perhaps pushed the wrong button, when setting it up?
:(:(
 
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DeletedUser1953

Guest
Thus we need the next step, for global map => size of troop based on difficulty/chapter and remove all squad researchs in the tech tree.
Keeping all these tech only for global map is absurd!
 

Wowwie

Well-Known Member
I concur Jack
So this Intended
at least the little Cities can enjoy the tournaments
In Live worlds I have no chance has to stick trying the most to get 1600 to 1700 points
and its defiant T! grabber buy looks of all the infinite number of T1 maximum off balance trades in the trader
 

slide

Well-Known Member
I find myself very saddened by this whole situation, I used to enjoy tournaments and the spire, was looking forward to the game progressing, but all that enjoyment has been sucked out of the window.
On Beta I can manage 20 provinces and that's it - I don't have all these multiple fire phoenix or MA boosts which others seem to produce, no DA. I'm never going to be a manual fighter because I don't want to fight full stop, auto fight is fine for me and bearing in mind that when I started playing on game release this was always billed as a city building game - trading or fighting, your choice! Some choice its turned out to be.

I'm not sure I'll get into Ch17 because I'll have gone before that. Elvenar is becoming less desirable, boring events, nerfed prizes, tournaments just being a mindless 6 x 20 provinces every week, top of the spire for the gold...
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
This weeks tournament is so frustrating, enemy wise it's not that bad, but those maps, 1 huge drama after the other.
With manual combat pretty much mandatory this frustration becomes very obvious, there is no hiding anymore.
 

Jackluyt

Well-Known Member
The heavy losses in this week's Crystal Tournament have been discussed above - apparently the high troop losses are caused by impossible terrain maps like the one shown above.
I hope they will fix this!
It is ridiculous to be selecting your best troops and putting up several military expiring buildings and an active Fire Phoenix - and still losing three squads of troops in autofight - which is the only option available to players who use the Mobile App.
That kind of repeated loss is totally unsustainable in the new tournament format, because above province #10, three squads may well be half of your total available army. Lose that many in three fights and you are out of the tournament...
:( :(