Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[CrazyWizard]

Anything that creates a hardship for the long-term paying customers in order to make it easier for the non-paying users "ain't bad for the game itself." Really? I find it difficult to follow that logic. People in early and middle chapters still wander off to new games; but now, so do the paying ones in the late chapters. That's just my opinion.

And how long does a person want to stop and spend their time clicking for no reason? Putting kp into Ancient Wonders seems to be about as bad as progressing. Where do you use what you get? I ran into this issue at the end of Chapter 16. And no, I have no interest in starting a new city now, knowing I'm going to run into another brick wall sooner or later.

Difficulty (enemySS/ownSS) curve is the same for all players. And I'm agree with @CrazyWizard, that part of tourney changes is not bad. Those who where used to almost free KP may argue with that, but that's a reasonable change if Inno wanted to limit the amount of KP gained from tourneys.
The other part (base tourney SS formula) is very bad as it turns any progress into regress at some point. And yes, I'm close to that point too.

Exactly, the tournaments where giving out too many knowledge points and other rewards. that part of the change reduces the output.

Remember when the tournaments started you would het first place with a mere 14 provinces and that was hard work.
This steadily grew to 30-40... en then it exploded to 90+.

It has now returned to ~40-50 which makes total sense, at the same time they made it easier to do like 20 provinces for the more casual player.
This is also a good change as it lowers the difference between the worst and the best players. so when you design a new chapter you have a clue in which limited range people het there advancement.

There is so much to complain about the new tournaments, but that specific change is not a good reason to complain, it's the exact goal they intended to accomplish with the change.

The main issue is that there are now "bad incentives" in the new formula, this is what the big issue is. the fact that a bunch of common moves are now "detrimental to your results" exponential increases that you cannot even predict and compensate for because they are multiplied with other "random" factors like expansions and wonderlevels.
Wonders that make no sense at all and only have a negative feedback.

The old system with SS was very flawed, and bad, but the current one is even worse than that.
how can you as a developer recognise that SS is flawed and fix it with something worse?

 

[little bee]

The old system with SS was very flawed, and bad, but the current one is even worse than that.
how can you as a developer recognise that SS is flawed and fix it with something worse?

I disagree. The new system is clearly flawed, but for the 99+% of players, that are not yet in chapter 16 and/or not doing more than 20 provinces it seems much better than the old system.

And I don't think that fixing the tournament formula is as easy as some of you seem to think. That is because a lot of the problems arise from imbalances that existed long before the formula came along. Let me do some calculations on the mana sawmill and the orknest as an exaple:

Both the orcnest and the mana sawmill have the same size and give the same amount of culture in each chapter.
In chapter 9 the sawmill gives 720 mana in 6h =2880 per day and the orcnest gives 450 orcs per day. That is a ratio of 6,4 mana per orc.
However, in chapter 10 the sawmill gives 3800 mana and the orcnest 500 orcs per day. That is a ratio of 7,6 mana per orc.
In chapter 11 the ratio is 9 and it continues to rise each chapter until it becomes 15 mana per orc in chapter 15.
Then the developers finally recognised the problem and nerved the mana. So the ratio drops back down to 13,3 in chapter 17.

The tournament formula, however, asumes a mana to orc ratio of 8 in each chapter. Clearly this does not work. And fixing it would require a lot of rebalancing

 

[Lovec Krys]

And we all know how Inno does rebalancing (makes it even worse - just in a different way).

 

[Karvest]

At least SS increase from doing tech tree should not be bigger than training speed increase from upgrades learnt while doing it... Well, there are unit upgrades and AWs involved as well, but there is nothing useful in ch16-17 in that regard. And even upcoming 4* units seems won't be enough to overcome tech tree negative impact on tournament performance.

 

[PaNonymeB]

At least SS increase from doing tech tree should not be bigger than training speed increase from upgrades learnt while doing it... Well, there are unit upgrades and AWs involved as well, but there is nothing useful in ch16-17 in that regard. And even upcoming 4* units seems won't be enough to overcome tech tree negative impact on tournament performance.

Yes. And when they tried to "fix" the formula... they increased the tech factor ! But of course they'll say I'm wrong...

 

[Karvest]

There is a simple way to fix this part even without touching the formula - just increase numbers of training speed of military buildings in later chapters to give ~ same % increase as progressing through tech tree increases tournament SS.

 

[iDavis]

I as a triple owner of brown bear see one, rather new, advantage of going into chapters 17+. As the coins / supply capacity in main hall increases significantly in these, it adds a lot of value for supply instants, that I´m using for training units with skipping the training queues with boosters (and with my brown bears activated). As this costs a lot of supplies, progressing into these chapters makes it an advantage for those who own more brown bears. Of course there are also other limiting factors (boosters, pet food), but I think I would with my current setup and strategy run out of my supply instants before anything else needed for this tourney gamestyle.

 

[CrazyWizard]

I as a triple owner of brown bear see one, rather new, advantage of going into chapters 17+. As the coins / supply capacity in main hall increases significantly in these, it adds a lot of value for supply instants, that I´m using for training units with skipping the training queues with boosters (and with my brown bears activated). As this costs a lot of supplies, progressing into these chapters makes it an advantage for those who own more brown bears. Of course there are also other limiting factors (boosters, pet food), but I think I would with my current setup and strategy run out of my supply instants before anything else needed for this tourney gamestyle.

Combine supply spells on magic workshop with plenty of NH spells activated.
If you have 3 bears and use boosters to vreate units I assume you also are very active in the tournaments and therefore get a ton of these spells

I did build the neighbourly help wonder for this reason, and I use is very very very often. you can get many millions of supplies per hour out of a handfull of magic workshops this way. this gives me a 400-500% culture bonus which is then muliplies by 3 times thanks to the 200% boost of the supply spell. it's absolute madness.

No need to go up chapters. I do spire and bears and whatever all at the same time with 2 ease.

 

[little bee]

There is a simple way to fix this part even without touching the formula - just increase numbers of training speed of military buildings in later chapters to give ~ same % increase as progressing through tech tree increases tournament SS.

That should be the goal, yes. But it is not as easy as you imply.
For starters it would still require rebalancing existing buildings and could therefore disrupt the balance existing cities, especially with regards to supplies. More importantly, the balance of the tournament formula needs to work for both fighting and catering. You cannot just change one without considering the other. And finally, it would be nice if training speed also remained somehow balanced with squadsize. After all, gthey have to fight on the worldmap as well as in tournament/spire.

Personally, I would prefer having it done right to having it done fast.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Personally, I would prefer having it done right to having it done fast.

Disagree hard on that. It's already been several months, long overdue for the diaper change even if it's a little sloppy and requires some patchwork later.

For starters it would still require rebalancing existing buildings and could therefore disrupt the balance existing cities, especially with regards to supplies.

I don't see how? Increasing the troop production speed does not affect supplies unless you want to train more troops which no one should complain about.

More importantly, the balance of the tournament formula needs to work for both fighting and catering. You cannot just change one without considering the other.

Sure, catering could be tweaked as well, but population, culture, and factory efficiency already improve more for catering in chapters than the military does. Also, the tournament formula more drastically impacts the high end tournament players, and military is the bigger part of that.

And finally, it would be nice if training speed also remained somehow balanced with squadsize. After all, gthey have to fight on the worldmap as well as in tournament/spire.

The world map fighting in later chapters is almost of no consequence. it accounts for maybe 1% of all fights.

 

[Karvest]

Starters (and even mid-gamers) can't measure impact in plain SS increase as they get a lot of other fighting bonuses while they are progressing through tech tree. 3* troops + military AWs + timewarp worth almost any SS increase, but after you reach frog prince there is nothing but plain SS and speed increase. And even upcoming 4* troops add just plain boost that is smaller than difference between SS increase and training speed increase...
Catering is another complex thing that is totally broken, and can't be even considered as a choice for competitive tourney. At max you can cater few fights which would otherwise give you big losses at higher provinces.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Starters (and even mid-gamers) can't measure impact in plain SS increase as they get a lot of other fighting bonuses while they are progressing through tech tree. 3* troops + military AWs + timewarp worth almost any SS increase, but after you reach frog prince there is nothing but plain SS and speed increase. And even upcoming 4* troops add just plain boost that is smaller than difference between SS increase and training speed increase...
Catering is another complex thing that is totally broken, and can't be even considered as a choice for competitive tourney. At max you can cater few fights which would otherwise give you big losses at higher provinces.

the downside is that once those 4* units are untroduced, if they follow the same road as in the past will make it again more difficult for everyone else including early / mid level chapters as everyone then can encouter these "improved" units.

3* was especially impactfull from the first time the golem was introduced at the dwarves chapter, and it's because they went from plain boring units to units with special powers. so far I havent seen something special like that that does make enough impact to consider. and do not forget the'll stretch those upgrades over another 5-6 chapters or so. so rememver that that "impact" had to be an impact that bridges like 6 chapters.

No way!

 

[edeba]

Remember when the tournaments started you would het first place with a mere 14 provinces and that was hard work.
This steadily grew to 30-40... en then it exploded to 90+.

Sorry, but I went out 27 provinces the very first of the old tournament. I didn't do that all the way to level 6. It probably was about 14 provinces for the rest, and actually, only to level 5.

It has now returned to ~40-50 which makes total sense, at the same time they made it easier to do like 20 provinces for the more casual player.

I can do this on my live game but it is in no way what-so-ever sustainable.

It seems to me that it is people with a second fire bird that saying the difficulty is reasonable. The fire bird is the most out of balance thing they've done in the game, and allowing people to have two, or three is nuclear out of balance.

I think they should make it so everyone can get a second, just ignore that some have 3, and reduce its strength to 25%, and also reduced the tournament difficulty.

The goal is to knock out going forever, so make the increase less to province 50, and then increase there. I think province 50 level 6 should be 200% difficulty, and difficulty should be increasing by 3-4% per province after this. Province 30 level 6 should be 160% difficulty and difficulty should go up by 2% through these provinces to province 50.

 

[Karvest]

the downside is that once those 4* units are untroduced, if they follow the same road as in the past will make it again more difficult for everyone else including early / mid level chapters as everyone then can encouter these "improved" units.

It would become more difficult for everybody, not for "everyone else". + there is no qualitative leap in 4* (at least for now), and even when you get those units you would be punished by SS increase much more than you get from 4* units comparing to those who would not progress further...

It seems to me that it is people with a second fire bird that saying the difficulty is reasonable. The fire bird is the most out of balance thing they've done in the game, and allowing people to have two, or three is nuclear out of balance.

My wife on live server in the middle on ch17, has only one fire phoenix (nobody has 2 on her server) + 2 brown bears, and can sustain 40-50 provinces.

 

[edeba]

It would become more difficult for everybody, not for "everyone else". + there is no qualitative leap in 4* (at least for now), and even when you get those units you would be punished by SS increase much more than you get from 4* units comparing to those who would not progress further...

My wife on live server in the middle on ch17, has only one fire phoenix (nobody has 2 on her server) + 2 brown bears, and can sustain 40-50 provinces.

I imagine that is closer to 40 than 50. I think you can get an extra 1-2k with an extra bird.

 

[Karvest]

Depends on tourney, but closer to 50 in most cases.
Anyway, number of provinces Inno want to be sustainable is their choice. But the fact that ch15 city can sustain more than ch17 city is plain failure of game design.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Depends on tourney, but closer to 50 in most cases.
Anyway, number of provinces Inno want to be sustainable is their choice. But the fact that ch15 city can sustain more than ch17 city is plain failure of game design.

Indeed this is the main issue of the current formula,
It is a great move that it's easier for most, it's ok that they brought the top of the tournaments and brought them back to reality.

Whats bad is that there is an incentive agains progression beyond a certain point. that makes it worst than the old system.

Yes you also could not revert done SS, just like you cannot revert expansions, and you might be able to destroy years of work of wonders on paper in reality thats easier said than done, what if they change it again?

With the SS issue there was always a path forward, you could skip from then on, and going forward was always the best choice.
Now advancing in chapters, expansions, or wonders is no longer always the best choice.

To me this is a critical design flaw.
every other change I am either neutral in, understand of a fan of. but that flaw is so critical that I cannot accept it.

It's like the perfect spouse, the only flaw is that he/she is a murderer/rapist thats quite the dealbreaker and a good reason to get out of that relationship. no matter how good the other points are, thats the end of it

 

[Heymrdiedier]

all very interesting opinions of everyone, but theres one big issue. Inno does not even want to acknowledge there is a problem....
And if more then 100 pages of feedback doesn't help them see it (on several forums) I'm not sure what ever will...

Honestly if the issue was that we were getting too much kp if we do too much tournament provinces, they they could have just removed them from the rewards after xx provinces. For me the tournament wasn't about getting a huge amount of kp, that was a bonus. I used to have fun in tournament and advancing in the game in research and wonders, used to mean i could do more in tournament, so it felt like it was worthwhile to do them.
The way it is now, everything in the game just feels pointless, because advancing doesnt mean you get it easier, but it means you get it harder.
I even know of someone who quit the game, because he was getting too much free diamonds, and was frustrated he had nothing to spend it on, that wouldnt hurt him.

 

[little bee]

all very interesting opinions of everyone, but theres one big issue. Inno does not even want to acknowledge there is a problem....
And if more then 100 pages of feedback doesn't help them see it (on several forums) I'm not sure what ever will...

Are you referring to the interview with one of the developers (Lukas something) around christmas? Because this is not what I read in that interview. He said that the new system works well for most players and is definitively fairer than the previous system. But he did acknowledge, however, that there was a problem with antient wonders and on the high end of the tech tree. And he made it clear that no amount of feedback would change anything, unless the actual data INNO collects regularly confirms the problem.

I guess the only thing we can do, is the show them where to look. And we need to wait for them to datamine the relevant numbers and come up with a solution.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

Are you referring to the interview with one of the developers (Lukas something) around christmas? Because this is not what I read in that interview. He said that the new system works well for most players and is definitively fairer than the previous system. But he did acknowledge, however, that there was a problem with antient wonders and on the high end of the tech tree. And he made it clear that no amount of feedback would change anything, unless the actual data INNO collects regularly confirms the problem.

I guess the only thing we can do, is the show them where to look. And we need to wait for them to datamine the relevant numbers and come up with a solution.

So only solution i see: we all just stop doing the researchtree, and at some point their data will tell them we aren't doing them anymore, and then they will wonder why.
Problem is, enough players will always do the researchtree, because its at least something to do.
Or we all restart the game and only make the good decisions based on the new rules, also something most people wont do since they already invested in this game (so its all lost money).