Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[maxiqbert]

I am not currently leveling my wonders anymore, so no sin there.


Wow you're setting the bar really low.
I have never done 2000 points

lowest I ever got is I think between 3000-4000 when the toernaments where introduced many many years ago. orc chapter no special buildings 8 baatles per province en 16 hour wait time between rounds.

For people who enjoy the tournaments 2000 points is the same as not playing at all.

This is where you show that you don't play the same game as most. 2000 is more than enough to open 10 chests.
Of course you can do more. I do more too, but my answer was to "being the leech of my FS". I don't think any FS at least here on beta is throwing rocks at players doing 2000+ every week.

 

[Karvest]

10 chests is an average FS now, not really tourney inspired.

 

[CrazyWizard]

This is where you show that you don't play the same game as most. 2000 is more than enough to open 10 chests.
Of course you can do more. I do more too, but my answer was to "being the leech of my FS". I don't think any FS at least here on beta is throwing rocks at players doing 2000+ every week.

There are plenty of factions in this game, each with there own specialities and gamestyles which is fine.

When we talk about "most" those people dont even get 1000 points, even under the new system.
I think that most people that are here are actually interested in the tournaments, therefore they are not the 30-2000 points players.

If you are actually interested in the tournaments you often speak about people from lets say 4000-15.000 points.
there is a clear reason another 9 chests where added, those arent there for no reason, it's there to cater to a certain group of players.
As soon as any player has unlocked enough provinces and unlocked the 700% bonus any player with interest can be in this range if he/she wants to.

And as karvest said 10 chest is not that tournament inspired, if 2000-3000 points is good enough, you won't even feel in any way the issues that some have pointed out. which means most people do not understand or care about it.

People who are lets say try to reach 8000 or more points are very affected by these issues, they also care and are therefore more vocal about it.

For me personally I can't stand if the basics are wrong.

Think about it this way, as an architect you build a crappy foundation, your point would be, who cares most people only build a wooden shack on it and it doesnt matter.
But not everyone builds a wooden shack, some actually build a decent building on it and the foundation shifts a bit leading to some cracks, others will build something big and the building will collapse.

The basics of contruction is that you build a good foundation to build upon. the current system is a crappy foundation at best. it doesn't scale.
It's already showing cracks and the issue is the more the game develops the bigger the cracks become. what some already experience is something that will seep down as more chapters expansions and wonders are added, what is now an issue for the pro players, will soon enough become an issue for the above average player and eventually be an issue for every one.

This formula has good intentions, has it's pro's, but in the end it's build on quicksand.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I keep reading along here and on the US forum about all the complaints and issues and all I see is everyone telling Inno that what they set out to do has worked. They wanted to make it harder for players to go over 5000 points or go past 25 provinces and it has obviously worked. I seriously doubt they will change their mind about that and I guess they are willing to accept some high-end players who used to push deep into the tournament will no longer be around and that more middle-of-the-pack players will finish higher in the top 100 each week.

 

[SoggyShorts]

all I see is everyone telling Inno that what they set out to do has worked. They wanted to make it harder for players to go over 5000 points or go past 25 provinces and it has obviously worked.

That's "All you see?"
You may need to get a new optometrist.

 

[Lelanya]

Well I am going to speak up for all those reading some of the comments here and shaking their heads.
I am VERY interested in tournament. I do 2000 to 3000 per city as a rule. I have something like 9 cities - but I have a job and a life too. So I don't play each city each week, but I do play 5 or 6! I do not have the provinces to compete anymore, but I plug away at it. I read the remarks on the Forums in the hopes that i will find a clue to how some are pulling off scores of 16k routinely. I know there must be some trick they have found that I have not. So I try different things in my various cities. I know I will find it!
But please - don't tell me I am not serious, or not interested, simply because I choose to eke out my resources from week to week instead of bankrupting myself. Maybe I fit the profile Inno was trying to help. But that won't stop me from looking for the answer.

 

[Karvest]

2-3k tourney score require almost no resource planning/AW leveling/expiring building usage, you can just keep your barracks busy 24/7 and find the time to fight 5-6*, that would be enough.

 

[Questar]

But please - don't tell me I am not serious, or not interested, simply because I choose to eke out my resources from week to week instead of bankrupting myself. Maybe I fit the profile Inno was trying to help.

This ...

 

[CrazyWizard]

I keep reading along here and on the US forum about all the complaints and issues and all I see is everyone telling Inno that what they set out to do has worked. They wanted to make it harder for players to go over 5000 points or go past 25 provinces and it has obviously worked. I seriously doubt they will change their mind about that and I guess they are willing to accept some high-end players who used to push deep into the tournament will no longer be around and that more middle-of-the-pack players will finish higher in the top 100 each week.

Those with constructive critisism are totally fine with that, you failed to read what is considered the issue, it's not that it's "harder" of "that we get less rewards"
It's all about how it motivates peole to stop playing the game, that there are incentives in there that motivates players to either go for the tournaments and give up the game or go for the game and give up the tournaments.

the strive "to do better" is removed from the game.
Thats the critisism.
The issue is that as some point in the game every "improvement" becomes detrimental to your spire/tournament results / difficulty.

There would be a lot less complaint if we were unable to do more than 30-40 provinces but lets say by doing chapter 17 we could push out 31-41 provincies.
The issue is by doing chapter 17 we can do 2 provinces less instead of 1 more, thats the issue. its not 1 step backwards 2 steps forward, but 1 step forward 2 steps back.

Well I am going to speak up for all those reading some of the comments here and shaking their heads.
I am VERY interested in tournament. I do 2000 to 3000 per city as a rule. I have something like 9 cities - but I have a job and a life too. So I don't play each city each week, but I do play 5 or 6! I do not have the provinces to compete anymore, but I plug away at it. I read the remarks on the Forums in the hopes that i will find a clue to how some are pulling off scores of 16k routinely. I know there must be some trick they have found that I have not. So I try different things in my various cities. I know I will find it!
But please - don't tell me I am not serious, or not interested, simply because I choose to eke out my resources from week to week instead of bankrupting myself. Maybe I fit the profile Inno was trying to help. But that won't stop me from looking for the answer.

Ok playing 9 cities is unhealthy, we also posted that 2000-3000 points aint special "once you have the provinces and once you unlocked 3* units" both are important as the difference between 2* and 3* units is huge. but with so many cities doing more than "whats quick and easy" is indeed overkill. if tournaments where really important to you, you would have scaled back on cities en went for 1 or 2 instead so you do have a proper work/life management and be able to play. this is a choice I have made. I have abandoned cities for exactly that reason.

16K scores are insane and not the standard, the how is easy,

• manual combat makes it easier
• timeboosters to create more units, spire is a great souce for this so is the magic academy, also some evens from the past made it that some people have many years of timeboosters on stock they could use to create enough timeboosters for this
• multiple brown bears, with the failure of the past some people have a lot of brown bears, when you combine this with timeboosters you can get a crazy amount of units fairly cheap as each brown bear increases your unit gain with 50%. so 3 brown bears add 150% units for 250% in total.
• Timewarp, the timewarp allows you to play the tournaments in 1 single day, combined with the polar bear it can even create a 0 second wait time between rounds, if you place your boosters on friday and do all rounds in 1 day than those boosters stay active untill wednesday this means you can do 2 tournaments with the same boosters, this allows you to use twice the amount of boosters that you could if you played them individually.

Any combination of the example above allows you to reach crazy scores.
I am affected by the new formula a lot, but it's camouflaged by the fact I own 3 brown bears. but this is and should not be the standard.
People who start playing today will be affected and unable to reach the scores I do much quicker then I have because they cannot compensate.

This is why I put the range between 4000-15000 instead of lets say 8000-15000, because not everyone has these "compensators" from the past.

For the tournaments it's a good thing if firebirds and brown/polar bears return at least once per year so that new players get a somewhat similar boost then more veteran players.

 

[SoggyShorts]

the strive "to do better" is removed from the game.
Thats the critisism.
The issue is that as some point in the game every "improvement" becomes detrimental to your spire/tournament results / difficulty.

There would be a lot less complaint if we were unable to do more than 30-40 provinces but lets say by doing chapter 17 we could push out 31-41 provincies.
The issue is by doing chapter 17 we can do 2 provinces less instead of 1 more, thats the issue. its not 1 step backwards 2 steps forward, but 1 step forward 2 steps back.

I must say, I'm impressed that you've come up with at least 10 ways to explain the issue and yet still find people who can't grasp it.

 

[maxiqbert]

IMHO, a simple correction would be not to stockpile effects from birds or bears.
This way, we wouldn't have those crazy effects that totally kill the competition, making it totally uninteresting to even try to compete. Which is why I'm perfectly happy with 2000+ score in tournament.
INNO killed the competition for me with the multiple birds (and somehow with the multiple bears too, although I can build enough troops to go for my 64 provinces with just one bear and no simia to talk of).

edit : Not saying that I disagree with what @CrazyWizard said, on the contrary. With this formula, there is no more absolute improvement after some point (to be determined, IMHO, it would be right after getting into orcs chapter), which is really bad incentive.

 

[Karvest]

Being able to go there once and being there every week is a very big difference. Don't think I can go up to 64 every week even with 2 phoenixes + 2 bears + stopped advancing at frog prince. Well, I can, for some time, but then my stockpile of troops and instants would be depleted. (I'm too lazy for manual fights)

 

[edeba]

I have yet another idea for fixing the land expansion penalty, where the penalty is declining for each additional premium expansion. So the first is 90% the penalty of the free, then 90% squared, basically it is declining by a multiplier of 90% of the previous cost... Simply formula, 0,9^(number of premium expansions). The penalty for premium expansions is outrageous in terms of how it plays out in the overall squad size, and it isn't beneficial and people did spend good money on them.

@CrazyWizard is talking about removing expansions, and I suppose if that option existed it would be the free ones that people would want to remove, but I think it is better to put the motivation and value back into ownership of the premium expansions.

The price drastically increases through purchase of the expansions, so the penalty should be declining for each additional one that you own.

I think the penalty is about 60% of a free one.

I added even second variation of the example as the first suggestion could be argued as more difficult for the smaller players because it would actually increase the troop size cost for anyone with less than about 10 expansions. So the next example was take the 60% penalty for the first and then multiply it by 95% for each extra expansion.

 

[CrazyWizard]

I have yet another idea for fixing the land expansion penalty, where the penalty is declining for each additional premium expansion. So the first is 90% the penalty of the free, then 90% squared, basically it is declining by a multiplier of 90% of the previous cost... Simply formula, 0,9^(number of premium expansions). The penalty for premium expansions is outrageous in terms of how it plays out in the overall squad size, and it isn't beneficial and people did spend good money on them.

@CrazyWizard is talking about removing expansions, and I suppose if that option existed it would be the free ones that people would want to remove, but I think it is better to put the motivation and value back into ownership of the premium expansions.

The price drastically increases through purchase of the expansions, so the penalty should be declining for each additional one that you own.

I think the penalty is about 60% of a free one.

I added even second variation of the example as the first suggestion could be argued as more difficult for the smaller players because it would actually increase the troop size cost for anyone with less than about 10 expansions. So the next example was take the 60% penalty for the first and then multiply it by 95% for each extra expansion.

Your point is that you are angry that you can do less now, but that was the whole idea behind this change
You focus on things like expansions, so you can do more again, but accept that this was the intention.

I do not care if the allow us to do 20 or 100 provinces as long as it's fair. but I like to keep to play the game and improve, this is the issue. the rest is a choice.


We have noted the reason of the oppos

IMHO, a simple correction would be not to stockpile effects from birds or bears.
This way, we wouldn't have those crazy effects that totally kill the competition, making it totally uninteresting to even try to compete. Which is why I'm perfectly happy with 2000+ score in tournament.
INNO killed the competition for me with the multiple birds (and somehow with the multiple bears too, although I can build enough troops to go for my 64 provinces with just one bear and no simia to talk of).

edit : Not saying that I disagree with what @CrazyWizard said, on the contrary. With this formula, there is no more absolute improvement after some point (to be determined, IMHO, it would be right after getting into orcs chapter), which is really bad incentive.

I would be fine with a change like that, but only after they fix the tournament formula first.
The only way I still (can) play is the fact I still got that to compensate. so removal of that without a tournament fix would be the end of it.

 

[edeba]

Your point is that you are angry that you can do less now, but that was the whole idea behind this change
You focus on things like expansions, so you can do more again, but accept that this was the intention.

I do not care if the allow us to do 20 or 100 provinces as long as it's fair. but I like to keep to play the game and improve, this is the issue. the rest is a choice.

Nothing you do keeps up with how much the squad size increases from expansions. The demand for increased resources far outstrips the benefit for an expansion, and each expansion over all does have far less of a helpful effect.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Nothing you do keeps up with how much the squad size increases from expansions. The demand for increased resources far outstrips the benefit for an expansion, and each expansion over all does have far less of a helpful effect.

Not entirely true if you followed out conversations.
How much a "(premium) expansion adds depends on the wonder and research level.
Just as a wonderlevel depends on research and expansions and research adds depending on wonder and expansion levels.

Any focus on just 1 of the variables is therefore pointless. they aren't seperate things, there all entangled. you cannot
Your focus on one just 1 factor ignoring the others is pointless.

This cannot be fixed by adjusting 1 thing.

 

[Karvest]

Tech tree part is bad even alone. SS increase% you get while progressing through ch16-17 is bigger than training speed increase% from that chapters, doesn't matter how many expansions and AW levels you have. And you get nothing that can compensate it (like troops upgrades or useful AWs).
AWs part has the same issue - once you have all useful AWs upgraded any further AW upgrades just punishes you without improving your tournament ability, doesn't matter how far you are in tech tree and how many expansions you have.
Expansion part too - once you have enough of space to place buildings required to sustain your army production, any additional expansion just hurts your performance, doesn't matter how far you are in tech tree and how many AW levels you have.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Tech tree part is bad even alone.

It's the evil Genie granting our wish.

"Ok, so taking optional SS techs is bad for players, this needs to be changed"
-Got it. Easy fix, we make ALL research bad for players?
"No, that's not what I meant, what I meant was..."
-Granted!
"Nooooooooooo!"

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

It's the evil Genie granting our wish.

"Ok, so taking optional SS techs is bad for players, this needs to be changed"
-Got it. Easy fix, we make ALL research bad for players?
"No, that's not what I meant, what I meant was..."
-Granted!
"Nooooooooooo!"

More like it was reversed, since optional techs of any kind have zero effect now on tournament and Spire squad size.

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

I think focusing on changing the formula in a fundamental way right now is misguided. This ship has likely sailed. Think about it, if you're IG, you've spend presumably a lot of time and energy in revamping the tournaments/Spire, it's been running for months, and you're mostly satisfied with how things turned up, with a possible exception of discontent by a small group of players, at least at the moment? Would you jump in and completely redo the whole thing, something that touches multiple features and literally every single player (tournaments are available from the beginning)? This sounds quite unlikely.

There is an easier way to address disincentives to progress in the late game. Pretty much every other game does that, so I am not sure why it can't be done here. It's inflation, and it's very easy to implement in a localized fashion. You say that doing chapter 17 is not beneficial, because you'll get 20% penalty, but only 10% improvements (not real numbers)? Instead of tinkering with penalty function (which is common for everyone, so changes are complicated), what if new chapter gives you 25% improvement? This is something that touches only the chapter in question; more importantly, this can be done for new chapters only that no one have seen yet, so those numbers can be whatever they need to be. If you have to scale it exponentially, so what? Plenty of games do that.