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Discussion Spire of Eternity

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Marindor, May 27, 2019.

  1. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016
    @Muf-Muf

    What? this is my new house?
    I don't wanna live in that spire :(

    How well does it pay to be the resident wizard? maybe, just maybe if the pay is right ;)
     
    Muf-Muf, silvia, Heymrdiedier and 2 others like this.
  2. ekarat

    ekarat Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    You put a lot of thought and numbers into this, so I will respond respectively with my own corrections.

    First of all, the magic academy doesn't use boosted relics for T1-3. So, using it does not impact getting 700% boost in T1-3.

    Second, with my Endless Excavation, I get 10 relics per province, not 10. So, it only takes 450 provinces to max them all out, a little less if you skip around like I did near the end.

    Over the course of a year, the relics I got from visits did add up. 3 relics/day is unrealistic. 1/day is a rough estimate, so 365/year. So, only a little over 400 provinces. Add in some event and quest rewards, and you can get that in the mid-300s, which is not so unreasonable.

    As for KP, I have 1300 KP in KP instants. I have 27x main hall capacity of gold, including coin rains, for roughly 900 more KP. I have 30 million T1, 14 million T2, and 10 million T3, so that's roughly 1100 KP from T1, 1100 KP from T2, and 1400 KP from T3 after accounting for price increase. All for a grand total of well over 5 thousand KP.

    If you converted what you had to KP, you would also have many thousands as well. I think many people don't realize just how much KP they can get for what they have and how slowly the cost rises compared to how production increases.

    I've only recently convinced myself to dip into that reservoir of KP when a chapter is released, in order to get my first guest race buildings set up.

    I don't have stats on wishing wells, but 500 diamonds is higher than I realized. Still, that's 5 diamonds per 3x3 per day or 35 diamonds per week. So, the spire diamonds are roughly the same as 1 wishing well, but without the space.

    Do you have a reference for wishing well rewards you can point me at? I have 5 wishing wells right now and only 780 diamonds.

    Anyway, my position is as follows:

    * Spire rewards are a nice complement to Tournament rewards. I have no use for more of any of the Tournament rewards, except possibly KP, and I currently have enough KP to saturate my swap threads (but I recognize that I need more swap thread bandwidth). The Spire gives the exact rewards I don't have much of (though it can drop the unique set, or at least revise it quite a bit).

    * Tournaments have a lot of diminishing returns after a while. Just doing a little less in each tournament can save you a lot of resources rather than sinking everything in for almost as much rewards.

    * The Spire as it currently stands is not balanced correctly. It clearly needs too many resources and needs to be adjusted. An experienced player with plenty of troops and bonuses should not get stuck.

    * I can see the Spire being tweaked in the future to be better. I think the difficulty / required resources are more of a problem than the rewards, particularly the types of rewards. I don't want diamonds being removed from the rewards.

    * The Spire and Tournament competes for the same resources and they both fill the same role. While it is possible to balance things to encourage doing both, that is tricky. Psychologically, people are going to feel like they are missing out if they hold back a little for one or the other. More likely, one or the other is going to be considered to be "better" so most people will end up doing one over the other.

    * In short, getting diamonds from the Spire is the one thing I like about it. Everything else needs to be rebalanced.
     
  3. Lisha

    Lisha Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Let me first say that here I have just a baby city, semi-abandoned due to not enough spare time. With the scarce troops I've had, I didn't even make it halfway through the first level, so I might be unable to see the full picture, although skimming through the 20 pages gave me some idea about it.

    I want to give a suggestion that I only saw mentioned here twice so far.
    When I heard about exploring the Spire and the map in the video, I imagined it a bit differently. Right now it's all a single lane - I would like to see it having some additional conflicts. Either as separate ways (admittedly, somewhat similar to the FA layout) or as a few additional conflicts scattered here and there, even if just for some additional visual treats.

    In the first scenario, I imagine there would be different ways to reach the same point(s), provided that there would be only 1 of each of the supposedly more valuable chests, i.e. if the conflict is resolved on one path, its counterparts would automatically be resolved also on the remaining paths, regardless of the individual progress for each path. It could be done through making all of the paths cross in the particular point(s), just like all of them would eventually lead to the only platform guarding the next level. This way it would not create too big of a gap between players who can afford resolving all of the conflicts and those who cannot. On the other hand, this would serve as some additional treats for those who are stuck and cannot progress further through the Spire ("consolation prize").

    In the second one, there would be just 1-3 conflicts with a dead end here and there, as additional branches. These would be purely for the additional gains, unlike the other "choose a path" thing, although the rewards still shouldn't be too OP, as not to make it feel like missing out on something unique if omitted.
    Perhaps this one would also be more suitable for the overall look of the Spire than the first proposition, I can see the very potential of the graphics to fit in perfectly with it. And looking at that picture of towers hanging in the air makes me think of extending it even further - once per level (or once per Spire event in general), in one of the dead ends there could appear a special passage/portal to one of those hanging towers.
    As for the location, it would be best if the portal was assigned randomly to one of those spots at the beginning of the level, so it could not be known in advance where it would be found. As for the content, I see it as a hidden "boss room" with the chest there giving all of the spoils with a 100% chance, not just one. Alternatively, it could give a chance for something really good, although I'm not so much in favor of this solution because that would go against the idea of overrewarding, so to speak, and I believe that many players would be happy knowing that there's a reward without a gamble aspect. Nonetheless, that could be an incentive to do more for the ambitious. However, once in the room, we would be able to go back to the main part of the Spire the same way we came in without having to resolve the encounter if we feel like the reward is not worth it/the conflict is too hard.
    Just to make it clear, all of the conflicts should remain optional, not mandatory in order to progress.

    Last, but not least, changing it in this way would help differentiate it from the FoE feature and, in case of the 2nd option, even from already existing feature which, as far as what was said in the video, was not intended to be duplicated.


    That said, I see how there should be some balancing in order to make it work. At least some of the concerns:
    - the conflicts are already very/too difficult, more would be too excessive;
    - the rewards are not worth it;
    - I really fear the FS aspect mentioned somewhere between the lines - all of the "play at your own pace without breaking it for your FS" goes to waste as we all know there will always be those competitive enough to once again form "Elite FS-s" for the sake of being the top, no matter how insignificant the rewards.

    As for the timers, I'm all for doing away with them, or at least making them all 3-4h or so. In its current form, it really doesn't seem worth it to arrange the schedule around completing all of the floors.

    As for the difficulty, I feel like introducing the additional, optional conflicts could help balance it out. Like, the main path should become easier - even as it is now, to be honest, judging from the feedback here - while adding some more encounters to solve, that is places to waste more fodder for some small treats.

    As for rewards... I'm pretty sure there could be way less coin and supply boosters.
    1. Personally, I like KPs/KP instants and time boosters (although anything less than 2h in total for one conflict feels like a joke to me).
    2. Aside from the buildings that are already there (and the need to do something about everyone having the same T2 produced in them) I'd say that some expiring buildings could be good. It may be good to introduce some new expiring buildings that last really short, like a week or so, and not necessarily making them military boosts - that's just a rough idea, though, rooting from the fact that sometimes I find myself looking forward to the 50d ones expiration, so that I can free up the space. Shorter expiration time would make them more convenient to place in the periods between races, when there happens to be some free space before researching another portal.
    3. Some amounts of troops would also be welcome as rewards, as already mentioned, even if there are players who consider any fights and producing troops as a waste of time and resources, and rely solely on their goods.
    What else... the Catalysts and Spell Fragments, especially the latter, are rather good rewards. Diamonds, too, of course, that's out of question.
    4. I'm not much of a fan of shoving event currency in there, like someone proposed, since we already have that in the Mystical Object, however, I can see that it could work nice for the badges in FA-s as both are short-term events.
    5. And why not give us artifact fragments/shards that we could forge into any artifact we want, as for now it seems that they won't be unified? That could be based on the already existing AW rune system
    (who wants to see broken artifact shards?) - depending on how rare of a reward they would be, the amount of shards needed for one artifact could be adjusted.

    That's all from me I could think of for now.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    slide, UlyssesBlue, Angedev and 2 others like this.
  4. Heymrdiedier

    Heymrdiedier Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016
    i think the duration of the timeboosts won should be at least as long as the cooldown on the next gate.
    Personally i hate that inno is deciding for us when we should play spire and when we need to wait.
    After years of having that on tournaments, i was so extatic i could finally play at my own speed/time with the timewarp wonder.
    The idea of going back to how it was before, makes me so sad, i think i wont do this spire at all for this reason.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  5. Dony

    Dony King of Bugs

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    There should be battleground background with Spire theme, my immersion went down when fighting on grass in tower, either 3 new themed battlegrounds for each map, or atleast 1 for whole spire would be much better

    I also believe there is enugh space on encounter screen to shows all 15 units at once, make Opposing force window more wider so it can show 5 units in 1 row, move fight button down so we can have 3 rows, separated with lines and text Wave 1-3
    Diplomatic approach window can be smaller with 3 resources per 1 row with also 3 rows
    this would be much better for planning our setup, it even happened to me that i forgot to check wave 3 few times last reset
     
    Golden Awaken, Arayla, iDavis and 2 others like this.
  6. Kersepitje

    Kersepitje
    QA Moderator
    Elvenar Team

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    that was also exactly my feedback when i first had a chance to test the spire. Then they took the manual battle down, so i hoped it would be because they were doing that =)
    Im still hoping they will do that tho :)
     
  7. edeba

    edeba Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    This would be massively welcomed where I play and it is one of the most difficult tournaments so it seems we've always gone through more. Goods are already massively imbalanced where I play and this would just help it.

     
  8. edeba

    edeba Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    So, I got through a battle manually, but only just barely... This really fast losing any appeal.
     
  9. UlyssesBlue

    UlyssesBlue Active Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2018
    I love this suggestion. Then it would be like a proper RPG. You'd have the choice of going straight through, or branching off to do all the little optional side quests/fights.
     
    Loki Blue likes this.
  10. Arayla

    Arayla Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    I tried the Spire last week with auto-fight and stopped playing because the rewards were not worth the troop losses.

    I tried the Spire today on manual. I was able to progress much farther, especially on the 2 wave fights. I think that the chests for bosses should have a much, much, much better consolation prize. After losing almost all my troops on the boss battle, and looking at the list of prizes which were all enticing except for "3 Combining Catalysts", I got the 3 Combining Catalysts and logged out of the game angry that I had lost lots of time playing on manual and enough troops in the boss battle with virtually nothing to show for it. I paid diamonds to upgrade my MA to level 5, so I can make CCs without a problem. I love playing in the tourneys each week, so I will always have enough relics to make more CCs.

    I want soooo much to like the Spire. But the rewards are still bad enough to make me angry for playing. And having to use time boosters to get through the next gate is extremely annoying. If I'm on a dungeon crawl with enough time to spare for manual fighting, don't make me walk away for 8 hours. In 8 hours I will have real life obligations and not be able to play. Hitting that gate just added to the frustrations. If a game is frustrating in a way that is in my control, that will entice me to return when I have improved my AW or built up the right troops or practiced a little more with manual fighting. But when a game is frustrating for a reason that is completely out of my control, like having too high of a % to receive the really crappy prize, it is not enticing at all.
     
    Angedev, Aramina, Mykan and 2 others like this.
  11. soleil

    soleil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2019
    Tried the spire again, why do I do this to myself? I'm out of units and still tried but there are too many things I dislike about battling in Elvenar. 1-limited movements and this turn-based system, 2 that so many units do the same exact thing and 3 defense defense defense. I'm a tank/healer player and dislike that everything is dps. and 4 Where are my healers?

    There is such a difference between solo and fellowship players - excess for fs members and scraping the bottom of the barrel for things for all others. This just isn't fun.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  12. Arayla

    Arayla Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    As a player who is very happy with the overall mechanics of this particular game, I read this and wonder if perhaps this game isn't a good fit for everyone. I can understand a player providing feedback in order to make small changes to improve the game, but feedback that the very basics of battling and fellowships are not fun makes me want to speak up to ensure that those basics are not changed.
     
  13. maxiqbert

    maxiqbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    battling is clearly not the best part of elvenar
     
    charlemagne3 likes this.
  14. Syonis

    Syonis Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2018
    The battlesystem of Warlords has most likely more LOCs than the whole Elvenar code ^^
     
  15. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    It's probably not, but this game was advertised to me as a combination Turn-based combat/city sim.
    That's why I get annoyed when whiners say "This is a city building game, I want fewer events with longer breaks in-between so we can get back to city building"
    I love the city sim part, but it only takes a couple hours to design an entire city "perfectly" after doing it for 3 years, so just that is boring as hell with 7 months wait in between.
    Fights that give reasonable return for the time it takes to manually do it would really breathe some life into the game between chapters.

    Lets face it, there are loads of amazing city sim games out there that put elvenar to shame, but they are generally single player and don't involve combat.
    There's also loads of better Turn-based combat games, but they generally don't have city sim.
    If a player doesn't enjoy all 3 aspects, why are they here?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    maxiqbert and Syonis like this.
  16. soleil

    soleil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2019
    @Arayla there are pages upon pages of people talking about how they are losing mass troops. Nice that you singled me out. You’re complaining about waiting, how would you like it if I came on and said maybe you should leave the game because you’re too impatient and this game isn’t meant for players like you? Your response was a bit dismissive and non-productive.

    The battle system in this game is far from good. If you like “I punch you first, then you punch me, then back to me punching you” good for you. I’ve been asking Inno to make it better. Now I wrote more specifics of why I don’t like the battle system. Read my Amethyst Wonder Phoenix post under Ideas and suggestions. My time on this forum, I’ve never seen anyone suggest such changes to the battle system.

    They have treants – Melee tanks that move like molasses. I’d like to be able to feed my amethyst phoenix and for a few battles they can move fast and block potential hits to my dps. Golems – ranged tanks also good, but then it falls apart from there. Why are there no healing classes in the game? Why do I have the needles as my first military wonder but the spire battle is mages and golems?

    I do like this game, I’ve said time and time again it has the potential of being a world class game. It has a really good combination of building strategy and battling. A lot of my posts, I mention how gorgeous my city is. My concerns have been battling, not enough events/activities, acquiring relics, tying events to the building of my city and now getting more runes because they just nerfed this in this event.

    I see posts from fellowship members with pics of the mass amounts of everything. They removed relics from events, they aren’t in the spire. Keep your fellowship stuff, make the spire fellowship only for all I care, just give players like me more avenues to get relics and runes. This game isn’t all about fellowships.

    If we can’t come here to the beta forums to voice our concerns, then why have it all? If I leave this game, it’s because the game is not ready for a player like me, who isn’t just a fan girl and accepts everything we’re given. I don’t want to see players leave the game and I’d never suggest anyone to. Not even to people who I disagree with repeatedly.
     
  17. maxiqbert

    maxiqbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    100% with you here
    still, having a "fight only" spire isn't going to be enjoyed by most players
     
    calenmir and SoggyShorts like this.
  18. ekarat

    ekarat Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    What exactly is the problem with the battle system? It reminds me of the old classics like Heroes of Might and Magic. That's not original, but that's not bad either.

    "I punch you first, then you punch me, then back to me punching you" is the essence of turn-based combat. Is it that you want real-time combat?
     
    SoggyShorts likes this.
  19. Dony

    Dony King of Bugs

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    There are, they are called diamonds after every battle, its free to play game so treat it like that
     
  20. Syonis

    Syonis Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2018
    Check the warlords fighting system or every HOMM fighting system vs the elvenar one^^
    For myself i really liked the fighting system of Might & Magic: Heroes Online but they stopped the developement years ago.
     

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