Discussion Runeshard Changes

[Karvest]

net0 - KP exchange system where members help each other by donating the same amount of KP that they get as reward from the chest, effectively gifting AW owners the value of their chests while loosing nothing.
After introduction of runeshard exchange amount of KP to donate is increased by amount of runeshards x15 to keep it fair.

 

[CrazyWizard]

net0 - KP exchange system where members help each other by donating the same amount of KP that they get as reward from the chest, effectively gifting AW owners the value of their chests while loosing nothing.
After introduction of runeshard exchange amount of KP to donate is increased by amount of runeshards x15 to keep it fair.

This assumes all members have all shards aviable in there pool. I think it's a bit of a mess because now a "helper" has to pay 15*x more even if he/she doesnt have the spare runes to waste.

It also makes it very expensive for players to get new runes in advance, for example if he/she needs 20 timewarp runes to unlock the new wonder. he/she now needs to pay 300kp for that?

We have decided to ignore that runes for that simple reason.

 

[Karvest]

helper get rune as reward and can spend it later.
if you won't include runes costs
1) chests could be taken by hunters from outside of the system, messing it up.
2) there would be a huge difference of how many KP you will get in return for 1st chest and last chest, doubt getting 75KP worth of runeshards just for being faster is fair.
yeah, getting runes for upcoming AWs would cost KP now, but ignoring their KP value is not a good choice either.

 

[CrazyWizard]

helper get rune as reward and can spend it later.
if you won't include runes costs
1) chests could be taken by hunters from outside of the system, messing it up.
2) there would be a huge difference of how many KP you will get in return for 1st chest and last chest, doubt getting 75KP worth of runeshards just for being faster is fair.
yeah, getting runes for upcoming AWs would cost KP now, but ignoring their KP value is not a good choice either.

Not a problem for us shout and then dump the wonder full.
But penalising new players is in my opinion worse than any other system, in that case I would prefer to go back to the mail system spam.

 

[Yogi Dave]

Here is my point of confusion on having a shard received from a chest costing 15KP. How do you charge the person? Let's use the example of a person putting a shard into an AW and receiving chest with 15KP and a shard. So overall that person gets 15kp and their shard count remains what it was. Now in the AW program this would mean the person under paid since they put in 15KP but got 30 back.

This is easily dealt with in a balance driven program. Before when the contributions are recorded, that person's balance would increase by 15. Now receiving a shard reduces the contribution by 15 making, thus the person's balance stays the same.

In a net0 there is nothing recorded, so how is it known that the person owes 15KP, presumably to the person who owns the AW? Where is this info recorded? How is it paid back? net0 works with small paybacks, but the shard usage will make the amount owed huge, as least for a while. But even after the bulk of shards people have drops to a reasonable level, the payback is still problematic. Looking at the case another way, put in 2 shards for that 15KP chest. Oops, now I'm getting the 30KP chest which may have 2 shards but let say it's only 1. Now the contributor gets 30KP back and a shard, so instead of paying back 15KP, they now owe 30KP for the 2 shards received. What am I missing? How it the accounting handled, and paybacks of this magnitude done in a net0 program? I know if you owe 15kp, there are various ways of paying it back. The simplest is to take the largest chest and put 15KP more than it cost. Now you would have to do that plus 15KP times the number of shards in it.

Lastly, regardless of what AW program you use, how do you explain this in a way to the members of the FS so they understand the why charge for the shards and how that is dealt with in a way that they don't say "Huh?" If they don't understand and have to go with accepting "Trust me", it seems like they will either drop out of the AW program or find an FS that doesn't use a program that comes off to them as either insane or unfair?

EDIT: The section on the balance driven AW program has many, many errors from the calculation of the persons balance and how it affects the price/choosing of a target. Sorry about that. Please ignore that paragraph.

 

[Killy]

@Yogi Dave Just explain to them that runes are worth 15 kps now and that is why every rune in net0 cost 15 kps and all chest costs are adjusted accordingly.

 

[CrazyWizard]

@Yogi Dave Just explain to them that runes are worth 15 kps now and that is why every rune in net0 cost 15 kps and all chest costs are adjusted accordingly.

15KP worth for who?

essentially those with net0 have decided that all wonders becomes 2100 points more expensive because you gotta pay for your runes.
That pretty much defears the whole benefit of netzero.

Chain mails become much more interesting now because that you do NOT have to pay for runes you need to unlock your new wonder every 5 levels.

 

[Karvest]

at the same time you get all your AWs cheaper by the value of runes. (4515 points for max level endgame AW)

 

[Killy]

15KP worth for who?

Everyone? Just pay net0 with runes and get some runes back, what should be the problem? New players might have to pay for their first runes, but they as well will have way more kps in the future, 15 kps for a rune shouldn't be a problem at all. As a new player I would rather consider waiting for the rune fragments (or whatever they are called in english, sry) and save the runes because they are worth 15 kps.

 

[Yogi Dave]

@Yogi Dave Just explain to them that runes are worth 15 kps now and that is why every rune in net0 cost 15 kps and all chest costs are adjusted accordingly.

...and when that doesn't make sense to them? What? It may make sense at one level, (the intellect maybe?), but does it make sense at the gut level. Did it make immediate sense to you or did you have to think about it awhile and let is simmer in your brain? If you had to think much about it then why do you think that simple explanation will work for everyone. As a weak analogy, algebra was trivial for me, but not everyone. It took a while to get some people to understand. It had to be put into terms they understood. The members have to feel this is correct, fair and works. Plus, how do you adjust the cost of a chest? The 15KP chest with a shard now cost 30KP? So I put that in and that moves me up to a higher chest until someone fills the 30KP chest with 45KP if it has 1 shard in it, 60 if it has 2? Is that the mechanics? If so that answers my question of what are the mechanics, but I haven't seen that written explicitly.

Chain mails become much more interesting now because that you do NOT have to pay for runes you need to unlock your new wonder every 5 levels.

Yes they do. It seems like more people will be vying for the top chests to get more shards. Thus, making it harder for people who are not on when the frenzy of mail is going on or they just don't have enough KP to compete. Disclaimer: That is just speculation on my part not being a chain mail fan.

at the same time you get all your AWs cheaper by the value of runes. (4515 points for max level endgame AW)

I understand this if what I wrote about in response to Killy's post is corrent. The KP the owner needs to put in the AW becomes total KP minus the sum of KP in the chests minus 15KP times the sum of shards in the chests. If that is the case, only the tables showing cost of a chest needs to change. Maybe asking and replying to other comments is making it make sense. Still, it'd be nice to see a conformation or explanation of how net0 is now mechanically handled.

 

[Karvest]

Yes, we just added +(runes*15) to our google sheet formulas + wrote a simple message that now we include rune costs into chest value calculation, and that's all.

 

[Killy]

...and when that doesn't make sense to them? What? It may make sense at one level, (the intellect maybe?), but does it make sense at the gut level. Did it make immediate sense to you or did you have to think about it awhile and let is simmer in your brain? If you had to think much about it then why do you think that simple explanation will work for everyone. As a weak analogy, algebra was trivial for me, but not everyone. It took a while to get some people to understand. It had to be put into terms they understood. The members have to feel this is correct, fair and works. Plus, how do you adjust the cost of a chest? The 15KP chest with a shard now cost 30KP? So I put that in and that moves me up to a higher chest until someone fills the 30KP chest with 45KP if it has 1 shard in it, 60 if it has 2? Is that the mechanics? If so that answers my question of what are the mechanics, but I haven't seen that written explicitly.

That would be the mechanic and shouldn't cause any trouble imo (at least that is how I will handle it in my fellowship). I thought about the change for 2 minutes or so to figure out what to do in net0 with it and I think it is easy, but I guess you are right it might not be easy for everyone. net0 for example was just logical to me but some players in my fellowship needed some time to wrap their head around it. I imagine it will take some time until most players see the runes as the same as 15 kps, for me it just seems logical and I don't understand the problem but that wouldn't be the first time.

Chainmails will become even more unbalanced with the change.

 

[maxiqbert]

@Yogi Dave
just tell them that they need to put in exactly what they get!
you get 1 rune + 15 KP? ok, so put 1 rune and 15 KP in it...

 

[SoggyShorts]

It also makes it very expensive for players to get new runes in advance, for example if he/she needs 20 timewarp runes to unlock the new wonder. he/she now needs to pay 300kp for that?

We have decided to ignore that runes for that simple reason.

It works.
The theoretical player you are describing pays 300 KP to get those 20 runes for their Timewarp,
BUT
While leveling their Timewarp they save 15 KP per rune in their own chests because everyone is paying 15 KP. In the 5 levels between rune wheels this works out to much more than 300 KP.

PLUS with the new system, they can use runes from a dozen different wonders to buy chests from other FS members converting runes into AWKP which they then can use on the Timewarp.

Win/Win/Win

 

[SoggyShorts]

Plus, how do you adjust the cost of a chest? The 15KP chest with a shard now cost 30KP? So I put that in and that moves me up to a higher chest until someone fills the 30KP chest with 45KP if it has 1 shard in it, 60 if it has 2? Is that the mechanics? If so that answers my question of what are the mechanics, but I haven't seen that written explicitly.

Always buy the TOP available chest. Then no one bumps anyone ever and it's super easy to know what to do when you first open someone else's wonder.

 

[SoggyShorts]

15KP worth for who?

Everyone.

essentially those with net0 have decided that all wonders becomes 2100 points more expensive because you gotta pay for your runes.

2100 more expensive but also 2100 cheaper. You have to look at both sides of the balance. If I'm buying your runes for 15 KP each and you're buying my runes for 15 KP each then it's perfect.

Chain mails become much more interesting now because that you do NOT have to pay for runes you need to unlock your new wonder every 5 level

Chain mail becomes much more favorable for the 3 most active players. The 22 FS members who are not in the top contributors of each wonder get bent over even harder than before.
Imagine being a top contributor in a 15 KP chain for a month or two. After winning a bunch of runes for several different wonders you aren't even using KP to contribute at all anymore. You just use the runes you've already won for free to buy more runes for free in a never-ending cycle while your FS member use their own hourly or tournament KP to fill your wonders.
The least even system just got super charged.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Plus, how do you adjust the cost of a chest? The 15KP chest with a shard now cost 30KP? So I put that in and that moves me up to a higher chest until someone fills the 30KP chest with 45KP if it has 1 shard in it, 60 if it has 2? Is that the mechanics? If so that answers my question of what are the mechanics, but I haven't seen that written explicitly.

Always buy the TOP available chest. Then no one bumps anyone ever and it's super easy to know what to do when you first open someone else's wonder.

In a net0 there is nothing recorded, so how is it known that the person owes 15KP, presumably to the person who owns the AW? Where is this info recorded? How is it paid back?

All accounting is done by the contributor at the time of contribution.

The top available chest is 20 KP+ a rune? Put in 35 KP. Done.

Once the chests are all taken the owner can do a quick double-check and make sure no one messed up and fill 'er up.

Spoiler: possible double check accounting(almost never needed)

If on the rare occasion someone does make a mistake while contributing (over or under) they simply message through the "Net0 Admin" thread:
Dave: "Hey Soggy, you overpaid 10 KP on my Needles, what's your next wonder?"
Soggy: "I'll do Monastery next, thanks!"
*Dave goes to Soggy Monastery and grabs top chest for KP+runes+10*

Or more realistically for the very rare occasion
Dave: "Hey Soggy, you overpaid 10 KP on my Needles, what's your next wonder?"
Soggy: "No worries, don't bother." (it's literally <1% of the wonder upgrade)

 

[Yogi Dave]

Yes, we just added +(runes*15) to our google sheet formulas + wrote a simple message that now we include rune costs into chest value calculation, and that's all.

Thanks. This is what I was trying to figure out, which I finally did while replying to @Killy's comment. Kind of made most everything else moot in my post. Thanks very much for the confirmation that I finally had gotten it. When I saw it, it was pretty much a "Well duh Yogi, how the hell else could it be done?"

Since we use a net0 system as did another FS I was in, I am familiar with how over/under contributions are resolved. Until I put it together that the KP cost shown for a chest will now included the rune cost, the problem of over/under payments was going to be horrendous. Nightmare adverted. Panic subsided.

 

[Alcaro]

Everyone.

2100 more expensive but also 2100 cheaper. You have to look at both sides of the balance. If I'm buying your runes for 15 KP each and you're buying my runes for 15 KP each then it's perfect.

Chain mail becomes much more favorable for the 3 most active players. The 22 FS members who are not in the top contributors of each wonder get bent over even harder than before.
Imagine being a top contributor in a 15 KP chain for a month or two. After winning a bunch of runes for several different wonders you aren't even using KP to contribute at all anymore. You just use the runes you've already won for free to buy more runes for free in a never-ending cycle while your FS member use their own hourly or tournament KP to fill your wonders.
The least even system just got super charged.

It's the same in Net0. I was there, remember? The contributors were most of the time the same, meaning maximum 7 players out of 25 can get a chest and even less can get a rune.
About how easy is to correct mistakes .. you really make me laugh. It's enough one contributor to overpay for a chest or donating simultaneously with another the same amount of KPs to have things messed up. Having a rune or more included in the mistake, make the things even harder to correct. What to say when you have an intruder with a generous donation? Well, will stay there and get their chest since nobody is willing to give more than can get back.

 

[SoggyShorts]

It's the same in Net0. I was there, remember? The contributors were most of the time the same, meaning maximum 7 players out of 25 can get a chest and even less can get a rune.

But unlike chains, in net0 it doesn't matter who grabs which chest because they don't profit off chests. That's why it's called Net0

What to say when you have an intruder with a generous donation? Well, will stay there and get their chest since nobody is willing to give more than can get back.

Again, in net0 it doesn't matter who grabs which chest because they don't profit off chests. That's why it's called Net0.
If "an intruder" puts 70 KP into my wonder, then my fellows simply let him have the 70 KP chest (40KP + 2 runes).
It's not hard.

Did you seriously not understand how net0 worked for the months that you were with us?