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Discussion Runeshard Changes

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
If this runeshard to kp was a long term plan, I can see why they so drastically downgraded the tournament, but they didn't consider that they also downgraded the AWs that require spells to work. They got an excessively punitively downgrade for access to spells, and then there's the hit for the higher squad size, so it was a double hit. Most people have so many spells, it goes unnoticed, but with the level of access to spells if you actually use the AW that need them, they are under powered because the tournament changes cut off access to the spells they require, and like all the other AWs they also got hit with the penalty for half the benefit from level 30 on.

And what a joke the monitoring on beta was. People had abundant everything and some were depleting those resources to try and keep up. Who wants to be a long term player and stripped down to a newbie because of poorly thought out actually good ideas. I think the runeshard to kp is a good idea, but not worth harming fundamental parts of the game that sooo many people say isn't fun anymore.

The tournament steepness is too high, the AW penalty is too high and the penalty for placing premium expansions is too high. A square root, or even a radical root, like x^.6 would tamper down the increasing penalty so the game is no longer regressive. And then reducing the steepness on how fast the tournament ramps up in difficulty.

From province 10 the difficult goes up by 4.5% and 3% would be better, and from province 17 it is 3.6%, and 2.0% would be better, and just leave it at 2.0%. The breakeven with what we have would be around province 60, but the difficulty at province 34 would be 167% instead of 202% and at province 50 would be 199% instead of 218% and would breakeven around province 60, and then be steeper than current design, well, from province 35 it would be steeper, but less difficult until province 60. It is just way too steep in this part of the game.
Idk what you are talking about each time about square roots and whatever.

The foundation is just plain wrong, you can square root whatever you want but if the foundation is rubbish you simply cannot build upon it.
Also all expansions are an issue not just premium, they already lowered the cost for premium expansions.
But once again of the foundation is wrong you can do whatever you want as long as you do not fix the foundation it doesnt matter.

Especially the expansion part is so exploitative, way more than the skip squad upgrade ever was. compared to expansions the complains about SS formerly is nothing more than a joke.

The idea behind that change was good, but the execution is a giant failure. it's like a water barrel with 100 bulletholes in it.
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
If this runeshard to kp was a long term plan, I can see why they so drastically downgraded the tournament, but they didn't consider that they also downgraded the AWs that require spells to work. They got an excessively punitively downgrade for access to spells, and then there's the hit for the higher squad size, so it was a double hit. Most people have so many spells, it goes unnoticed, but with the level of access to spells if you actually use the AW that need them, they are under powered because the tournament changes cut off access to the spells they require, and like all the other AWs they also got hit with the penalty for half the benefit from level 30 on.

And what a joke the monitoring on beta was. People had abundant everything and some were depleting those resources to try and keep up. Who wants to be a long term player and stripped down to a newbie because of poorly thought out actually good ideas. I think the runeshard to kp is a good idea, but not worth harming fundamental parts of the game that sooo many people say isn't fun anymore.

The tournament steepness is too high, the AW penalty is too high and the penalty for placing premium expansions is too high. A square root, or even a radical root, like x^.6 would tamper down the increasing penalty so the game is no longer regressive. And then reducing the steepness on how fast the tournament ramps up in difficulty.

From province 10 the difficult goes up by 4.5% and 3% would be better, and from province 17 it is 3.6%, and 2.0% would be better, and just leave it at 2.0%. The breakeven with what we have would be around province 60, but the difficulty at province 34 would be 167% instead of 202% and at province 50 would be 199% instead of 218% and would breakeven around province 60, and then be steeper than current design, well, from province 35 it would be steeper, but less difficult until province 60. It is just way too steep in this part of the game.
I'm wondering now, maybe we didnt complain enough about the bad tournament/spire formula? I personally gave up because it feels useless to keep bringing it up, but recent developments about the wanted notification changes makes me wonder, if we are also not crying enough for attention about this as well.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Idk what you are talking about each time about square roots and whatever.

The foundation is just plain wrong, you can square root whatever you want but if the foundation is rubbish you simply cannot build upon it.
Also all expansions are an issue not just premium, they already lowered the cost for premium expansions.
But once again of the foundation is wrong you can do whatever you want as long as you do not fix the foundation it doesnt matter.

Especially the expansion part is so exploitative, way more than the skip squad upgrade ever was. compared to expansions the complains about SS formerly is nothing more than a joke.

The idea behind that change was good, but the execution is a giant failure. it's like a water barrel with 100 bulletholes in it.
Really? I spent forever outlining how this would affect the numbers and it would work... No time to look at this today...
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
maybe we didnt complain enough about the bad tournament/spire formula?
I mean... hundreds of posts on it across multiple regions.
The one time we got a response it was "No, the players with wonders are still doing better than those without"
Inno doesn't look at stuff twice. I'm sure somewhere there's a study they did that showed most money comes from new features, so if an old one is broken it's not worth the time/money to fix when that could be spent on new developments.
It makes a game rotten to the core, but as long as "Line goes up" for profits that's of no conern.
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Really? I spent forever outlining how this would affect the numbers and it would work... No time to look at this today...
You spend a ton of time how it would make it less bad or whatever. less bad != as good.

I notice you post a lot of posts like, make wonders less bad by doing this.
You just hope they do something, but they should do the right thing not something.

I see you make a lot of posts with arguments that are so flawed to start with that I can't waste my time diving into the matter.
As long as you post stuff like the "problem with premium expansions" ignoring normal expansion which are way worse and similar style posts, I can't take the rest serious anymore.

I feel you make a lot of posts adressing "your problem" not "the problem"
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
I mean... hundreds of posts on it across multiple regions.
The one time we got a response it was "No, the players with wonders are still doing better than those without"
Inno doesn't look at stuff twice. I'm sure somewhere there's a study they did that showed most money comes from new features, so if an old one is broken it's not worth the time/money to fix when that could be spent on new developments.
It makes a game rotten to the core, but as long as "Line goes up" for profits that's of no conern.
View attachment 9800
Well I get the feeling we're all pretty much fed up with the way inno treats this game, but we don't wanna quit because of all the time and money we already spent on this game in the past. But it feels like none of us will still spend money on it in the future. A failed investment we just dont wanna get rid of because we hope it will still pick up on day. But its not, and one by one the players are giving up, and the good BS are having a really hard time replacing them, because all the good BS are having the same problems.

But maybe that just my very personal impression of the current state of the game :)
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
A square root, or even a radical root, like x^.6 would tamper down the increasing penalty so the game is no longer regressive.
While using a square or higher root will tamper down the growth a bit, the exponential term on techs completely overshadows everything else. A square root factor times an exponential factor is still exponential, it just takes a little bit longer for it to swamp any damping of other factors. Factors are multiplied together which exacerbates the situation. They should be terms, which are additive, not multiplicative factors. I don't mind so much the metrics that are being used to determine advancement. It's the way they are combined that is the main problem. And making the tech completion factor exponential is just plain wrong.

However, this is back to the tons and tons and volumes and volumes that have already been written about how squad size is created and the difficulty curve due to prov number/round.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
I want all this stuff to scale with my power level/chapter, but yes, some of this stuff takes a crazy jump that does not match, though my "middle of the road" Live city still does decently, and my lower-powered Beta city still has more trouble with some fights because I have almost none of the military AWs built. But anyway, I would also never want the game to be as easy for a chapter 15-19 player as it is for a chapter 1-5 player or the game would get very boring and I, as well as many others, would probably quit.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
If the foundation is rotten, does it matter?

Is the foundation/core part of the game, advancing through the chapters, rotten? Everything else is optional, even if we like doing it or have come to treat it all as a crutch to complete the chapters faster. There are players who advance through the game, and enjoy it just fine, without being in a fellowship, which means no tournament or FA, and those players may not use the Spire much either.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Our FS has done an insane amount of leveling with the change, about 588 AW levels since I grabbed starting data, which actually missed up to the first 2 days of of the change.

But, it has completely slowed down now. It is like people got the levels they wanted and/or ran out of resources. About 25% of our FS maintained a "normal" level of leveling, which I've defined as 4 or less AW levels. Six people did 49 or more AW levels.
 

Killy

Well-Known Member
Is the foundation/core part of the game, advancing through the chapters, rotten? Everything else is optional, even if we like doing it or have come to treat it all as a crutch to complete the chapters faster. There are players who advance through the game, and enjoy it just fine, without being in a fellowship, which means no tournament or FA, and those players may not use the Spire much either.

Yes advancing through the chapters is rotten, if it only makes you weaker. That is why I stopped research which is optional too imo.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Yes advancing through the chapters is rotten, if it only makes you weaker. That is why I stopped research which is optional too imo.
I stopped research as well, and because of any kind of self discipline, it is about time to stop AW levels as well. I had a bunch that I wanted, but I got all of them in the past 2 weeks. There's another 8 or so that I'm indifferent about, and then after that, what I do with the game, lol?
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
I had stopped on research as well, and destroyed some wonders as well. But the game became so boring, I recently decided to give up on tournaments (where i used to get all my fun) and started going through to chapters again, and even rebuilding some of the wonders i trashed.

If i ever get end of research, I dont know what I'll do though, tournament and trying to get better at it used to be what kept me bussy, but there's no way to get better at it anymore, every action i take only makes it worse. :)
 

Bor de Wolf 1965

Well-Known Member
Not for the people who don't do the tournament or Spire, which was my point.
Why would you put up the Needles and other fighting wonders?
Right, you want to use their bonuses in your advantage when you are fighting.
And when are you fighting?
O yes, in the tournament and the spire.

Now I wonder, does Inno want us to play the tournament and spire?
Yes, for you get bonus KP and AWKP and Rune shards from the tournament and time boosters from the spire to help us with our game.
No, for if we do with better wonder levels and no growing in the tech tree, we are getting more trouble doing the same amount of provinces every week that we upgrade the fighting wonders.

And with this contradiction the system is rotten as SoggyShorts is referring to.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Why would you put up the Needles and other fighting wonders?
Right, you want to use their bonuses in your advantage when you are fighting.
And when are you fighting?
O yes, in the tournament and the spire.

Because they fight all the world map encounters, while ignoring the tournament and Spire?
 
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