[Discussion] The Solution: Player Movement

[DeletedUser]

Spoiler: world map betnar

can it get worse then this?

placed your image behind a spoiler as it's too big according to the rules. Goryn.

 

[DeletedUser724]

No, the system checks for activity before moving. Inactive players will remain where they are.

This sound terrible to us

If the default is "on" and Inno may move "active" player away from our city

If there no "similar spot < a spot that do not have your 3 boost goods identical to your existing 3 boost goods > " for a player, he cannot be moved
but his active hoods are all move, and he become a oasis in the desert for new player to land to help

I still suggest to set all player to default "off"
if any player do not like his environment
Inno do it case by case instead of doing a whole map re-shuttle

 

[DeletedUser]

I still didn't get an answer: what is an active player to INNO in this situation?

hints: Ranking points, time spent online, province completed, good production, troops production, MH level?

edit: Almost forgot player who buys lots of diamonds?

 

[DeletedUser283]

if you login, you are active, it is that simple

 

[DeletedUser]

if you login, you are active, it is that simple

Just when you register, right?

 

[DeletedUser283]

no, when you login and load the game and access your city (and collect, give help, whatever you may do ingame)
this is how activity is measured in FoE and I doubt that Inno would have gone to the extreme of designing something complex and different for Elvenar

 

[Muf-Muf]

I have heard two things that seem mutually exclusive:
1. Inno will be moving the "most" active players first, regardless of current position on the map
2. Inno will be moving active players based on current placement on the map from inside to outside (so in a concentric circle, evaluating activity level at each ring moving outward)

#1 is a re-shuffle, #2 is a contraction. By definition, the first one will be more rewarding to players who have been most active, the second one will be more rewarding to players who have been playing the game longest.

Which is it? Just curious.

Overall, it sounds like a lot of thought has been put into this, and I'm eager to see who I land near (whenever I wind up in the queue to move). It most likely won't be worse, and it might be more helpful. Though I will miss the few active neighbors I have. I do wonder... as a complete side note... if this increases # active players within trading reach, will that help alleviate the existing trading issues on certain goods? That would be excellent.

We will move active players, yes. Inactive players generally won't be moved. There is no real "gradation" in activity that's being considered, though. Also, we will move players from the outside in, so towards the center of the map, not away from it.

And yes, a lot of thought and time went into developing this and we're very happy that we're finally able to perform this on our Beta so soon. We hope that it offers improvements in all areas related to the world map, which of course includes trade (as trading partners are based on the people who're around your city).

erm, something just occured to me, how does inno define peoples activity? this kinda sounds like the people who have spent the most on the game in cash will get first dibs at places

Activity is based on logging in. "More active" does not mean "logged in more recent", though. Basically you're marked "inactive" after you haven't logged in for X days. Diamonds or amount of money spent are not considered at all here.

Is there any downside to making the default off?

Yes, there are multiple. One is what Grace mentioned here:

Furthermore, if you set default to OFF, you will wind up with worse outcomes than if you set it to "ON":
1. Far more complaints to Inno from players who didn't pay attention, and are upset they didn't move (and to be clear, more = more than the complaints Inno would have gotten from players who were moved when they didn't want to be if the default were set to ON)
2. Fewer players available for Inno to move, resulting in poorer outcomes for those players who do want to move

Another would be that we then don't end up with what we want: all active users in the middle. Instead, we would have active people who read the announcement and took action by enableing the setting in the middle, while all those who are active but missed the announcement, or didn't take action are still in an area that is by then possibly even emptier, since the first "group" did move towards the center. So, basically we would both be holding our active users back, and even making it worse for them. Neither of those are very good.

but if the default is OFF, then you can choose if you want to move or not, let the people choose their own way, having the default as on, makes it seem as if your been forced to move,

It would also create other problems. Please see above.

Inactives from middle should be moved outside before others go to middle, this would result in even more active "middle" of the map.

True, yes. From what we have seen, though, inactive (non-deleted who have been inactive for a long time) are generally distributed evenly on the world map, so this is not our top concern at this point. Of course that may change in the future, but for now we're focussing on getting active people towards the middle. We'll go one step at a time and evaluate and improve while we go. Let's not rush to a future step.

I actually hope that nobody opts out, because we need a clean "proof of concept" test.

I hope the same, but I also believe it's generally a good thing to give people a choice.

I strongly feel that players who are actively paying attention to their game should be moved first - since the closer one is to the center the better. Please let "Off " be the intial default, then switch it after the first migration. Pretty please.

We want to give everyone a fair chance - even those who may not be at their computer all day. So no, sorry, but we won't do this.

And to be honest if they wanted a clean "proof of concept" test as you call it, why give us a choice in the first place?

Would you have preferred that, then?

is this the same way the system checks for inactives now and removes and replaces with mines?

Nope.

if you login, you are active, it is that simple

Pretty accurate, yes.

 

[DeletedUser1075]

Ok, this is a contraction of the map then, in the sense that if you're on the outer edges you're unlikely to suddenly find yourself in the center - you'll still be on the outer edges, but there will be a ton of active players near you rather than all the inactives you're now dealing with. And the outer edges will be much closer to center than they are now.

So if we're looking for a visual aide... consider this example where "g" = goldmines, "i" = inactive player, and the capital letters are all active players:

Current: A - B - C - g - i - g - D - g - g - E - g - g - g - F - g - g - g - H

New: A - B - C - D - i - E - F - H - g - g - g - g - g - g - g

This reflects a contraction of the circle, moving players closer in order based on their current position relative to center and prioritizing from players who are closer to center down through the players who are currently furthest from center (so no reshuffle, e.g. moving H before E), and not moving existing inactives still on the map. Of course, the actual moves rely on where resources are laid out on the map so it wouldn't be this clean, but this gives you the gist of it without adding that little complication in. (little... ha!) In this case, H still lives on the outskirts, but E, F, and H all benefit as they are now much closer to each other. No one is worse off, everyone is better off - eventually. In reality, it will take weeks to do this and in that time player E will lose contact with F, then in a week get a new trading partner when F moves, but H will be really upset for another week until H is moved as well.

Is this about right Muf-Muf?

 

[DeletedUser867]

One of the consequences is that new players will consistently find themselves on the fringes of the active map area, which is actually OK because they're not going to be doing much trading in any case.

• If they STAY active they'll have a good shot at any new vacancies nearer the center of the map
• When an established player (on the interior of the map) DOES get a new neighbor they will quite likely be someone who is worth cultivating.
  
• If the new players never come back again, after a few days, then 31 days later there'll be another Goldmine on the fringes of the active area

The automatic moves will provide a nice purgatory effect.

 

[DeletedUser]

question regarding new active players ,

ok if i get this right, your planing on moving the dead cities out away from the middle and try to consolidate all the active ones in the middle and working outover, so there will in effect be a massive circle of fairly active players, ok so heres the thing, any new players that join and stay in the game, will they they be moved to the fringes of the current active circle?

also, IF this works, then how often will checks be made in the active circle for people who have left the game?

 

[DeletedUser]

haha my posts are ignored as always, ignorant muf-muf.

 

[Muf-Muf]

Ok, this is a contraction of the map then, in the sense that if you're on the outer edges you're unlikely to suddenly find yourself in the center - you'll still be on the outer edges, but there will be a ton of active players near you rather than all the inactives you're now dealing with. And the outer edges will be much closer to center than they are now.

So if we're looking for a visual aide... consider this example where "g" = goldmines, "i" = inactive player, and the capital letters are all active players:

Current: A - B - C - g - i - g - D - g - g - E - g - g - g - F - g - g - g - H

New: A - B - C - D - i - E - F - H - g - g - g - g - g - g - g

This reflects a contraction of the circle, moving players closer in order based on their current position relative to center and prioritizing from players who are closer to center down through the players who are currently furthest from center (so no reshuffle, e.g. moving H before E), and not moving existing inactives still on the map. Of course, the actual moves rely on where resources are laid out on the map so it wouldn't be this clean, but this gives you the gist of it without adding that little complication in. (little... ha!) In this case, H still lives on the outskirts, but E, F, and H all benefit as they are now much closer to each other. No one is worse off, everyone is better off - eventually. In reality, it will take weeks to do this and in that time player E will lose contact with F, then in a week get a new trading partner when F moves, but H will be really upset for another week until H is moved as well.

Is this about right Muf-Muf?

The general idea is correct, yes: we move the active players towards the center and the inactives remain where they are. But, we check from the outside first, rather than the inside. So, if there is a space close to the center, the active person out furthest will be moved to that spot first (filling starts from the middle). Let me take your example and apply a "perfect case scenario" on it, so we assume the following:

• The right spaces are available (the exact lay-out of bonuses etc.)
  
• Player A is at the very center of the map, so they won't be moved
• All players are in a linear line (makes it easier for the example)
• To keep it simple, between all players in your example for "Current" there is exactly 1 empty spot available

From your "Current" example, that would lead to the following "New" example:

A - H - B - F - C - E - i - D - g- g - g - g - g - g - g - g - g - g

Because:

• The person who is furthest from the center (H) is moved first, towards the first available spot (from the center), so between A and B
• After H was moved, F was the new "furthest", so they were moved next and the closest available spot from the center was between B and C, so they were moved there
• Then E was furthest away, so they were moved next - the first available spot being between C and i (who is still a player, just inactive)
• D is now the furthest from the center, but the last available space was taken by E, who moved inbetween C and i. Unfortunately for D that means that i will remain their neighbor on one side, and the gold minds will start on his other. But, D should not be too unhappy: the next new player will be spawning right next to him, because all spaces between A and D are now filled. And as the next new player will be replacing the closest gold mine closest to the center, that means it is the one right next to D

Of course that would be a "perfect case scenario", as said. In the real world it is more likely that there will be some gold mines between players A and D (from the last scenario), because it may be impossible to move other players there due to the lay-out of the world map. That makes it also possible that e.g. player H is moved to a spot between C and D, while player F is moved between A and B. (I hope you can still follow this all )

Still, new players will be placed to replace the gold mine closest to the center (we fill the map from the "inside out"). Also, we are deleting inactive users from the inside out as well, and we would do that before moving others automatically. That means that we will first free up space from the middle outwards, to fill those "immediately" again by moving players from the outskirts towards the center.

question regarding new active players ,

ok if i get this right, your planing on moving the dead cities out away from the middle and try to consolidate all the active ones in the middle and working outover, so there will in effect be a massive circle of fairly active players, ok so heres the thing, any new players that join and stay in the game, will they they be moved to the fringes of the current active circle?

also, IF this works, then how often will checks be made in the active circle for people who have left the game?

At this moment we are not yet planning moving inactive cities away from the center. Relatively, they will be more on the "outskirts", yes, but that is because they are not moved in with the active players. But, they are also not moved out - they stay at the same spot. Whether or not we will move inactive players away from the center later on is unknown at this point. Either way, we do not have plans for it right now.

haha my posts are ignored as always, ignorant muf-muf.

Yet the question you asked - "What defines an active player?" - was answered by me. Just happened to be under a quote of another person's post instead of yours.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well. You didn't go into details that is what i'm looking for. How often player need to be logged in? And I don't think this is not enough for a good "activity standard."


There shouldn't be any gold mines after this update! If they are they should give much more reward that you can get from other players. Because nothing can beat active player and a great ally. Now you gives us 50%. You know (active) player isn't just coins+supply once a day?

From your "Current" example, that would lead to the following "New" example:

A - H - B - F - C - E - i - D - g- g - g - g - g - g - g - g - g - g

This replacement pattern is NOT a good idea.

 

[Muf-Muf]

There shouldn't be any gold mines after this update!

Well, there will always be empty spots (= gold mines) somewhere on the world map, unless we shrink the world map as a whole (but then we also cannot let new players come into the world anymore). Pretty sure that that's not the direction we want to go?

This replacement pattern is NOT a good idea.

We're very interested to hear what you would suggest instead. Could you please tell us why you don't believe our solution will work?

 

[Dony]

Since there is no plan for inactives with main hall under construction what about solve this.
1. let main hall finish construction regardless if player will ever log back based for example on building time, lets say it takes 1 day to upgrade main hall, lets take like 3x that time as trashold for finishing, that would mean that after 3 days main hall is finished in our example.
2. or let main hall under construction take NH based on old lvl, so if that player surprisingly log back will not get new values of coins

because this players are worse then gold mines, zero benefit and abusing this system to annoy all around them

 

[Muf-Muf]

Since there is no plan for inactives with main hall under construction what about solve this.
1. let main hall finish construction regardless if player will ever log back based for example on building time, lets say it takes 1 day to upgrade main hall, lets take like 3x that time as trashold for finishing, that would mean that after 3 days main hall is finished in our example.
2. or let main hall under construction take NH based on old lvl, so if that player surprisingly log back will not get new values of coins

because this players are worse then gold mines, zero benefit and abusing this system to annoy all around them

The first option would require huge changes to the way we finish upgrades (and would re-introduce many quest-related issues too - even more than we are currently facing). The second could be worth considering, but that would also be quite an inconsistent change if you look at what can be done with e.g. culture buildings under construction. Also, we don't think that most of the players who have their city in such a scenario are willingly "abusing" the system (some just leave the game before their Main Hall finishes upgrading - it just happens). Still, we can see that this can have quite an impact. Hopefully moving more active players towards the center will also help solve this issue at least partly - because more neighbors also means that the impact of players whose Main Hall cannot be helped because of this is smaller: you will have more others that you can help.

 

[Dony]

for that second option i would only allow main hall for help, not cultural building, since once we can do NH on main hall its not a problem if there are cultural buildings or not

 

[DeletedUser]

haha my posts are ignored as always, ignorant muf-muf.

...and mine are derided...

I didn't even begin to suggest advantages to players "who sit at their computer all day", muf-muf. Even so, its hard to imagine that Inno is keen on you disrespecting players who spend ample time and money in Elvenar?

To the point: surely it makes sense to someone that: 1) Inno could make the announcement appear for several days so that 2) players who actually log on could opt to be moved first. Why?

On of my fellowship members is near center world. He has ZERO gold mines. In the past 2 months, this means he had opportunity to glean 75 million coins more than me. Simply due to the luck of placement.

Inno has never yet made a simple token of respect to faithful players. Not a single diamond given out for errors, down time, happy holidays, celebrations...As far as we can tell, they don't care if we're here or not.

It wouldn't hurt anything or anyone for them to move us first. If we log on and see the message, we should have first option. Then move everyone else. Please.​

 

[DeletedUser1095]

The person who is furthest from the center (H) is moved first, towards the first available spot (from the center)

Eek, really?! Aren't you afraid the culture shock will be overwhelming when players from the far wastelands are suddenly deposited in the middle of downtown?! Will my manners be good enough? What shall I wear?? Is there time to get my hair done???

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, there will always be empty spots (= gold mines) somewhere on the world map, unless we shrink the world map as a whole (but then we also cannot let new players come into the world anymore). Pretty sure that that's not the direction we want to go?

You do not need that many empty spots - gold mines. You can create an edge. Players who are on edge can go only in three directions. Or you can make world "round" and people from bottom right side (newbies) of the edge can meet people at top left (best players).

We're very interested to hear what you would suggest instead. Could you please tell us why you don't believe our solution will work?

Yes. You only need to shrink players on the world map and eliminate the gold mines. Then every 7 days people get switched (if they want). When spot "opens" up due to less active or unactive player. Which need more critera then just "login."
Player select in which direction (s)he wants to go next. If he even want to move.


Activity criteria:
KP spent in last 7 days. Only those count that you can gain and not buy.
Login times in last week up to 3 logins per day with at least 60 min between logins. week: L/21 gives you more indications of player activity.


do you want/need more?