[Discussion] Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

[DeletedUser736]

Wow. I went away for the weekend and this thread exploded again.


On a related note:
I have happily paid Inno to play other freemium games, because the game was constructed in such a way that the storyline made sense and the value for the additional spend was there. I've found in this game that there is no storyline to the spend, and the prices seem high - reducing the perception of value for money invested. Something to consider, since it seems related to the whole balancing/scouting issue.

I spend hundreds of $$$ In forge of empire before abandoning it. I spent 0$ on Elvenar. I totally agree with you. I don't feel like Elvenar diamonds give me enough for what I pay. Even more now that the system has been redesigned and that I realize I am considered 3x ore advanced that the dev. think I should be. So why pay real money to speed up things?

 

[Heymrdiedier]

I feel we were also led to believe that troops would be less expensive, and this is also not the case on a squad basis. Yes, everything seems faster now, but I'm not even sure it really is - if I could train a full squad at one time, wouldn't it take as long as it used to take to train a full squad? (I'd be fine with that, but less than thrilled about the way expectations were managed). Could the devs please help us understand why our training squad sizes decreased so dramatically?

On the dutch forum we calculated this:
NL1:
1 sorceress 3:

256

4:27m

ZZ1:
1 sorceress 3:

58

42s


Max troop size on nl1 is 336 units, sorceress being size 4 that means it takes 21.504 hammers and 6h 13m 48s to train a full troop.
Max troop size on zz1 is 1140 units, sorceress is still size 4, that means it takes 16.530 hammers and 3h 19m, 30s to train a full troop.

Unless my calculations are wrong, that makes it take half the time in new combat then on the live servers.
Now if the mortalities among the sorceress 2 wouldnt more then double, it would be a nice thing, but i fear the casualties are much higher.

Edited with correct troop size

 

[Dony]

Max troop size on zz1 is 1065 units

its 1140

 

[DeletedUser651]

What I don't really understand is why they just wouldn't make scouting cost more coins than your MainHall can hold. It's such a simple way to stop scouting "beyond expectations"

So what ARE their expectations? How tiny a grid do they expect us to have? None of this matters in the early game, but it makes a huge difference if you stick around a long time. No one is "rushing" through anything by the time they get to the orc chapter. Heck, by the time you get to fairies you can't scout fast enough. By orcs it is excruciating. It will take about a year to get all the new space released with each new race. A YEAR? How slow do they want things to go?

Instead of trying to find ways to meet their expectations, maybe we should be examining their expectations? Frankly their expectations seem schizophrenic.

 

[Dony]

for next chapter we need to have 190 provinces to unlock it, so they expect we will have maybe around 200 finished
our max grid now is 100, we have 35 from research tree, 32 from 198 provinces completed and 4 from start (not sure about that 4), so that around 70 expansions used from grid for free = 70% (which is not a bad number, we have only 40% free builders/academy)
this year every race came after 3 months and every next race required 30 more provinces to unlock
that means if you want to go with speed they expect from us you need to scout 30 provinces per 3 months = 10 provinces / months = 1 free expansion from province per month (since its around 10 now to get expansion)
so even people with 300+ provinces can meet that, but for a cost that negotiation/battles will be much harder

lets look back, at dwarven chapter we had 6 expansions from research tree and 3-4 from provinces so thats 9-10 grid spaces for chapter to get (at this point it was balanced)
then fairies had 5 and orcs had 4 from research tree with 3 from provinces both, i personaly think that was a time when they didnt had reworked map of our city yet and didnt know from a longer perspective where/how they want to continue

next race will probably unlock 10 new grid spaces in our city , minimum of 4 grid spaces from research tree and 3 from province, that should be around what they want i guess, thats 70% i talked before, maybe they give us some extras we will see soon

so overall 1 free expansion per month = 12 per year
this all last changes just makes me think they want from this game to be relaxing casual game where you are not punished if you go on vacation for 2 weeks and then come back
i personally also have 300+ provinces finished and i stoped scouting since i finished with orcs and next advanced scout will come soon, i can manage my space in town so i dont miss extra expansions (i do bought few last year tho, when the cost was reasonable for me). i just wanna see difference in army and so on.

if you look deeper and follow their rules and stop scouting till you meet their expectation, you wont actually need so much production or armories, because advanced scout reduce it and u wont need resources for negotiation for next 3-6 months, you also dont need army that much now since you wont scout (only for tournament you will need) = 2 armories should be max and maybe some wonders

missing relics/kps from provinces are 80 per month (10 provinces to scout = 80 encounters total), thats 20 for tournament per week which is also not that bad to get if some people still need some even for not advanced players who doing 2-3 provinces in tournament only

it will still be possible to do 10 scouts per month for some advanced players (not for all tho) but for a cost, its on them if its worth for them or not

 

[DeletedUser1711]

this all last changes just makes me think they want from this game to be relaxing casual game where you are not punished if you go on vacation for 2 weeks and then come back

No, they actually do not want this.
I think it was in the german forum where there was a question from someone who asked "Why not increase the bar for the Knowledge Points permanently?" An INNO official answered around the lines "Because we want people to often play the game. So with this they have to login at least every ~10 h (if they don't want to lose anything)."

And that holds true. If they really wanted this to be casual they would not have put a limit to how many Knowledge Points you can hold. So you are actually EXPECTED to login at least twice a day (or rather 5 times in 2 days). The production times are another indicator for that. If it were casual I would understand the 5 min, 15 min, 9 h, 1 d, 2 d (the short prod for if you really need some stuff). But the 3 h Production indicates that they also very much expected people to login after a short amout of time like this.
And with these login times you also spend some time in this game (which was also to be expected unless they are very, very dense and simpleminded). This means:
You put in new productions, you spend your KP, you upgrade some stuff... and you look if your scout is done and send him out again if available.

From the beginning it was very much to be expected that people do that, especially since this game has a *insert curse word with "f" here* RANKING LIST!

So no, there is simply no excuse for now telling us "you are too far ahead" because we behaved in a way that they absolutely HAD to EXPECT.

@INNO:
We are not "too far ahead". This is not our fault. It's yours. Stop blaming (and punishing) us for your hindsight.
And for the love of God, stop making up these stupid excuses just to justify your money grabbing ways...!

 

[DeletedUser736]

If they think we are too far ahead, I think their solution would be to scale the difficulty down, not up. Make the battles feel about normal to they advanced players. That means newcomer would have easy battles, but that would feel more fair than to put veteran to a grinding halt saying basically : Come on guys, how think headed can you be? Don't you see that putting your advance to a complete stop for months to come is FUN!

 

[DeletedUser283]

295 provinces
I am not too far ahead
I just played the game
what do you guys expect ?

 

[Jixel]

Sorry, but the days of "sending only Granite Golems and Sorceresses and win everything without any losses ever" are over.

In the old system, we had several units that would be almost a guaranteed win in any fight, in any encounter, at any distance.

That is simply not true. Here follows some lengthy analysis

On the EN1 server I've won 303 provinces, I have a few more to go in ring 12, and I'm playing with Elves.
Here's my reality for the different provice types (remember: under the old system. Also note that I'm a pretty average fighter, and on EN1 I have enough goods that I can negotiate most encounters anyway.) :

Crystal: Yes, these can be won with auto-fight and 5 stacks of Treant IIs - but, note that in ring 12, there can still be up to two squads lost per encounter, depending on terrain and luck.

Scrolls: There seem to be two options for Scrolls provinces - either one squad of Bandits + one squad War Dog + 1-6 squads Thief, or one Thief/one War Dog/ 1-6 Bandit. If Bandits are dominant, then 1 squad Treants + 4 squads Golems will probably win, however I'd expect to lose all of the Treants and 1 Squad of Golems. If Thiefs are dominant, then 1 squad Treants + 4 Sorceress III works pretty well, however again, the Treants will be lost, and maybe some Sorcs too.

Silk: Some fights can be won with 5 x Sorceress IIIs - maybe 2-3 per province, maybe losing 1 squad per fight. However, the other encounters have a mix of Thief and Cannoneer, and I haven't found a combination that won't lose 2-3 squads in winning the encounter.

Planks - melee-only encounters (e.g. Thiefs + Swamp Monsters) can usually be fought with a bunch of Golems, maybe a Sorc or two as well. With luck and dodging around the terrain, maybe only 1 squad will be lost, but with enough squads of Thiefs it's easy to lose 2-3 squads of Golems in "winning". Per Encounter.

Steel - there is a winning formula for these, at least - 4 x Golems + 1 Sorc, or 5 x Golems. Take out the Bandits first (after their first salvo kills at least half a squad), then some Golems make a beeline for the Cannoneers, the rest try to reduce the Knights. At least one squad will be lost per encounter, maybe 2-3 if the Cannoneers get lucky.

Gems - another tricky one, facing, Bandits, Knights, and Cerberus II (War Dog II? I forget), in various combinations. These are harder if using Golems or Sorceresses, the Cerberus II will make sure of heavy losses for either - but Treants lose half a squad every round to the Bandits. Another type of encounter that is possible, but involves 2-3 squad losses per encounter, so it's not usually worth it ...

Elixir, Marble, Magic Dust - honestly, I've been mostly negotiating these. The combinations of heavy ranged (steinlings/golem IIs) and/or necromancers are basically guaranteed to take out a squad or two per encounter, and some of the Marble & Elixir encounters (especially against 6-8 squads) are pretty much impossible.

Summing up the losses per province:
Crystal - 3-6 squads of Treants.
Scrolls - 6-8 squads of Treants, 3-5 squads Sorceresses or Golems
Silk - at least 10 squads lost to complete the 8 encounters. More if the Cannoneers get lucky ...
Planks - 5-10 squads lost
Elixir - easily 10 squads lost, I can imagine losing 20 or more to get through the 8 encounters.
Marble - easily 10 squads lost, I can imagine losing 20 or more to get through the 8 encounters.
Steel - 8-20 squads lost to fight all 8 encounters.
Gems - easily 10 squads lost, I can imagine losing 20 or more to get through the 8 encounters.
Magic Dust - easily 10 squads lost, I can imagine losing 20 or more to get through the 8 encounters.

And remembering that it's 9-10 provinces per province expansion, and that adds up to 40-60 squads lost just for one expansion !

(note: on Beta I play as Humans. I've found that Blessed Paladins + Priests are about as effective as the Golem/Sorc combinations, but losses are generally half to one squad higher ... )


So, back to the quote from @Muf-Muf - "win in any fight, in any encounter, at any distance" - that is a huge exaggeration, and I'm sure you know it. I hope the developers know it too, otherwise they are "rebalancing" the battle system under false assumptions !
But that would explain what they've given us here.


Edit: Forgot Gems ! Added them in ...

 

[DeletedUser613]

I have conquered 321 provinces and also now have a quest, fight and win 3 encounters, I use humans and the defending armies in the current province comprise 570 swamp monsters, 3480 archers, 4 x 870 heavy troops and 1350 enchanters, against this I can field may be 900 units 4 x blessed paladins a 1 x priests, this thus makes it impossible to win the fights

 

[Heymrdiedier]

i dont think i got further i should have, im in the dwarven chapter and i have 101/130 provinces cleared(130 to start fairy chapter), i dont have the best golem yet. So i do a fight in ring 8: 5 dogs and 1 troop of necromancers. So i look up what best against this combo and it appears to me golems (since treants wont reach the necro before they are killed), so i bring all golems to the fight. I start off by killing the necromancer first as that should make it easier for me to kill the dogs. I loose some golems but not a whole group.
So now i assume i can manage to kill the dogs off easily: i was wrong, i got slaughtered with half of the dogs left alive ...

So for me it just looks like its too hard, unless i was expected to stay at 100/130 till i researched the next golem. So do they expect me to wait till im stuck at the chest at the end of the chapter and then want me to start fighting?

If this combat goed live as it is, every low player will be stuck at the chest and will have to save up resources to pay off all encounters.

BTW i think the chests and mufmufs post are contradictionary, first you HAVE to do so many provinces to get to the next chapter wich made low players get stuck since its not always easy to get enough encounters, and then you are not EXPECTED to do encounters as you will get to far ahead.

 

[DeletedUser1075]

On the dutch forum we calculated this:
NL1:
1 sorceress 3:

256

4:27m

ZZ1:
1 sorceress 3:

58

42s

Max troop size on nl1 is 336 units, sorceress being size 4 that means it takes 21.504 hammers and 6h 13m 48s to train a full troop.
Max troop size on zz1 is 1140 units, sorceress is still size 4, that means it takes 16.530 hammers and 3h 19m, 30s to train a full troop.

Unless my calculations are wrong, that makes it take half the time in new combat then on the live servers.
Now if the mortalities among the sorceress 2 wouldnt more then double, it would be a nice thing, but i fear the casualties are much higher.

Edited with correct troop size

You're right about sorceresses, but I'm not wrong overall. My original comment was based on perception: I've not been training a lot of sorceresses lately, but I have been building up swords and archers to test, and I've been building a ton of golems as they are still useful in tourneys. Rather than relying on perceptions, here are the numbers for the advanced units:

*EDITED to reflect the correct Treant weight.
Costs are per squad based on your sizes above. Units are highest level of each.
Swords | Old cost: 10752 | New cost: 15960
Archers | Old cost: 12768 | New cost: 15960
Treants | Old cost: 15120 | New cost: 16530
Golems | Old cost: 18144 | New cost: 16530
Sorceresses | Old cost: 21504 | New cost: 16530

Sorceresses are cheaper. Treants are slightly more expensive, but close enough to be a wash. Golems are only slightly less expensive (1614 fewer supplies per squad) - I'd call that one a wash. Archers are a bit (3192) more expensive. Swords are about a third more expensive. Interesting that they seem to have divided the units into two price ranges.

I am not at the end of Orcs quite yet and haven't upgraded barracks so I can't do the time calcs.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

Costs are per squad based on your sizes above. Units are highest level of each.
Swords | Old cost: 10752 | New cost: 15960
Archers | Old cost: 12768 | New cost: 15960
Treants | Old cost: 15120 | New cost: 8265
Golems | Old cost: 18144 | New cost: 16530
Sorceresses | Old cost: 21504 | New cost: 16530

Tho i like your comparison, hammers are not really an issue, you can get those easily, its the time training that matters but for that you need to compare with same lvl barracks on both servers. i cant dont that, on nl1 i have lvl 21 barrack, on zz1 only lvl 11, so cant compare at all.

Btw those 2 numbers were posted by Lord Soth who had a lvl 19 barrack on both sides. so that wasnt fastest possible training time yet.

 

[DeletedUser1075]

Tho i like your comparison, hammers are not really an issue, you can get those easily, its the time training that matters but for that you need to compare with same lvl barracks on both servers. i cant dont that, on nl1 i have lvl 21 barrack, on zz1 only lvl 11, so cant compare at all.

Normally I would agree with you, but at the rate my troops are dying, I suspect those hammers are getting more scarce much faster.

I calculated time for each for a lvl 19 barracks (my hold up earlier was that I don't have barracks 21 yet on beta, but if you're good with lvl 19 then here it is). I used Excel, so I have fractions of an hour rather than minutes and seconds. If someone knows how to make Excel cough out hours/minutes/seconds, please enlighten me. If someone can share times for each troop with a lvl 21 barracks, that would help me revise the calcs.

*EDITED to reflect the correct Treant weight
Times are per squad based on your sizes above. Units are highest level of each. Barracks level 19.
Swords | Old time: 2.56 hours | New time: 3.17 hours
Archers | Old time: 3.20 hours | New time: 3.17 hours
Treants | Old time: 4.48 hours | New time: 3.27 hours
Golems | Old time: 5.01 hours | New time: 3.27 hours
Sorceresses | Old time: 6.24 hours | New time: 3.325 hours

Swords take longer, Archers are a wash, the other three units are shorter. I also fixed one transcription error on the Golems time. As with prices, they seem to be constricting the recruit time to a narrow range.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

those are very intersting, btw im not sure treants are the new cannon fodder, do you know their size halved? so you need 2 times as much units for a single troop. I suspect you forgot that in the calculations

 

[DeletedUser736]

One of the things that annoy me in Inno reply to our complaint is that we're supposedly too far because of previously overpowered unit. Namely, in the case of humans, the paladins and the priest. I rember very very clearly the time before the paladin3 did'nt exist. Before the dwarves came out. I was negotiating every single province because it was unwinnable. Pretty much like now. When the paladins third upgrade came out, I tought Inno noticed there was a problem with winning on the world map, and gave us upgrade to make the thing managable.

Now, they turn their coats over and claim actually we were not supposed to win. It's like, back then with the dwarves, they "fixed" the battles so they were doable, but now they "fix" it again because they want it to be impossible???? Why did they introduce grade 3 unit in the first place if their intent was not to make things managable? Or is there some truth in the fact they realize we were not getting diamonds expansion?

 

[DeletedUser1075]

those are very intersting, btw im not sure treants are the new cannon fodder, do you know their size halved? so you need 2 times as much units for a single troop. I suspect you forgot that in the calculations

Nope, didn't even realize it. Revised numbers are:
Costs are per squad based on your sizes above. Units are highest level of each.
Swords | Old cost: 10752 | New cost: 15960
Archers | Old cost: 12768 | New cost: 15960
Treants | Old cost: 15120 | New cost: 16530
Golems | Old cost: 18144 | New cost: 16530
Sorceresses | Old cost: 21504 | New cost: 16530

Sorceresses are cheaper. Treants are slightly more expensive, but close enough to be a wash. Golems are only slightly less expensive (1614 fewer supplies per squad) - I'd call that one a wash. Archers are a bit (3192) more expensive. Swords are about a third more expensive. Interesting that they seem to have divided the units into two price ranges.

Times are per squad based on your sizes above. Units are highest level of each. Barracks level 19.
Swords | Old time: 2.56 hours | New time: 3.17 hours
Archers | Old time: 3.20 hours | New time: 3.17 hours
Treants | Old time: 4.48 hours | New time: 3.27 hours
Golems | Old time: 5.01 hours | New time: 3.27 hours
Sorceresses | Old time: 6.24 hours | New time: 3.325 hours

Swords take longer, Archers are a wash, the other three units are shorter. I also fixed one transcription error on the Golems time. As with prices, they seem to be constricting the recruit time to a narrow range.

 

[DeletedUser283]

units are slightly more expensive on average
barracks are much faster
down the drain go the supplies

when the update came, I tried to keep up like I used to, producing continuously or almost;
I suddenly noticed that I could not replenish my supplies fast enough without using 1h production and spells;
since then I have adapted, and thanks (!) to the shorter training times I now keep a stock and produce on demand (that is during tournaments as fights on the map are outta here)

 

[DeletedUser240]

So we players from the first hour are punished because we advanced to far in the provinces.
We can't win anymore battles in the province and scouting new provinces is useless because we already have to many.
I think they want us to stop playing and wait till we receive an email from innogames telling us when we can play again

 

[DeletedUser1657]

So we players from the first hour are punished because we advanced to far in the provinces.
We can't win anymore battles in the province and scouting new provinces is useless because we already have to many.
I think they want us to stop playing and wait till we receive an email from innogames telling us when we can play again

Another way to look at it is you have an advantage of additional space over those starting today or only at the required province limit until there is enough tech eras for them to catch you up.