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[Discussion] Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

DeletedUser736

Guest
I'd give as an advice to new player to invest heavily in buildings producing the goods needed to negotiate, and grab as many province as they can before they choose to "fix" the negotiation, once they realize that making the battles impossible to win is'nt stopping us from scouting "too fast"
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
Another way to look at it is you have an advantage of additional space over those starting today or only at the required province limit until there is enough tech eras for them to catch you up. ;)

We played a game and we are not "advantaged" over anyone. If they want to stop people from playing this game, then we can't stop them, but if there hadn't been a game for US to play, none of us would be here and this game would be bankrupt. A direction they are going to be heading if they bring this nonsense to the live servers.

I know you are just trying to look on the bright side, but I am getting really upset to see people are begging and apologizing for their own existence.
 

DeletedUser736

Guest
The day I began playing Elvenar was the exact same day I logged on Forge of Empire. The reason was that I found the battles more interesting in Elvenar. Last week tournament, I kind of played it blindfolded. I really did'nt have much time. Tonight, I tried it again, and here's my toughts.

First of all, I am really discussing here the tournament, where the battles are designed to be fair, and in increasing difficulty. Talking about the world map is beating on a dead horse, and Inno, no matter their claim they read our post, don't care at all. Actually, that's probably what they do. Read our post. And that's all they do. If they are not going to take our input, and upload that to their live servers, I wonder why they even bother to read us.

But as for the tournament... I have to be fair, and admit I find the battles more fun and engaging now. I have to be more careful about what I am doing, and I like the way new units as balanced against each others. Once I reach higher stars level and the CPU squad become to oversize mine, I expect I'll have to be even more careful. But there is two points I notice that badly need to be improve on before they go any further with this rebalancing and introducing new units and what's not. I'm probably wasting my time since they don't care about what we have to say, but I'll give it a go still.

First of all, they REALLLLLY need to have, at least palette swap for upgraded enemies. Come on Inno, do a little effort. You don't want to do a new graphic for bandit II?, at least change their colors. I had this nasty surprise in the tournament that when I reached the 2 province, they introduced bandit 2. All of a sudden, they were hitting much harder. I would have played it out differently. Now, I check before the battle what I am REALLY up against, but that is still annoying as hell, becase once the battle as started, you have to keep checking out what's what. I even encoutered both types. Say bandit and bandit II, or thieves and thieves II in the same battle, and strategically it changes a lot how you react, but you keep having to place your cursor over each units to know wich one are the upgraded version and It's annoying as hell. A simple color change, like for cerberus I and II would go a long way in improving this up.

The second change they need to bring up, before considering bringing up new units and mixing thing up even more, is the fix the way debuff are calculated. This problem always existed, but now, in this new system, it's much more problematic and need to be fixed. First of all, what is the problem? Well, if I hit an enemy with my priest, wich now act first in a round, they are going to place a -30% to the enemy damage, and they are going to defuff enemy armor by 40%. But when my heavy is going to move in for the kill, he is going to replace that 40% armor debuff by his own 10% armor debuff, litteraly upgrading the enemy by hitting him. In the previous system, it did'nt matter that much, but in this new system, it does much more. One thing I found out playing this new system with fair squad size is that it would be worth risking bringing units that are not at an advantage like the priest, to open up opportunities because of the great debuff they offer. It would open up a new world of possibilities. For instance, when enemies are mixed heavy, lights and ranged, like in the current tournament, it would definitely be worth considering bringing more lights and less heavies, taking in account that the light can now stand a better fighting chance against enemy heavies. But as of now, my paladins reducing the enemy armor by 10% is not a bonus, it's actually a penality because it cancels out much better debuff. So there is only one realy strategy here, and it's to bring the "right" troop to the battle, because debuffs can't really open up new opportunities since they keep cancelling each others.

Suggested fixes would be either to apply only the better debuff, or, personally, I would prefer different named debuffs to stack. So 2 paladins deduff don't stack, but the priest curse and the paladin armor pierce WOULD. Now THAT would make things really more interesting because that would allow for a much more varied tactics. As of now, I tend to bring more lights than heavies in the current tournament simply because the barbarians armor crushing ability is 30% and the paladins one is 10%, so in the long run, the barbarians are much less of an hinderance than the paladins.

I hope Inno actually listen to this, I think I am really making fair critisim, but the way they handled things up to now, I think they don't really care. But they cannot blame me for not telling me what's wrong, and not doing my "job" as a tester.
 

DeletedUser1548

Guest
@galoyal , it would be a shame if Inno didn't read it. It's very valuable feedback.

Unfortunately system wasn't 'rebuilt' it was copied with all previous flaws. Only major parameters had been changed and to be honest it just looks like: "Oh, it was ten here? Let's make it five." Maybe programmers did ENOURMOUS work but as a player I don't see it.
I tried few Tournament battles but as I predicted... I don't feel like learning all of it again. I will just wait for @Goryn 's fighting guide.
Also I will not manually fight because after more than a year of playing Elvenar it became boring as hell. If auto-fight won't work I will be negotiating all I can and leave all the rest.
And again: I want to build a city not 'fight' 90% of my time here...
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
So we players from the first hour are punished because we advanced to far in the provinces.
We can't win anymore battles in the province and scouting new provinces is useless because we already have to many.
I think they want us to stop playing and wait till we receive an email from innogames telling us when we can play again :p

I disagree even players from the last hour are punished, with 101 provinces, its almost impossible to win while having the correct setup against the enemies (golems vs dogs). That is with 101 provinces cleared in the chapter that required 100 provinces to start with. (so im defentily not too far ahead. The combat simply needs a nerf
 

DeletedUser1163

Guest
All the fun of battling province creatures is gone now because of this new Battle System. Yes, we elves do fight to keep Elvenar safe from roaming and dangerous creatures. But it looks like Elvenar is going to be overrun by monsters because the enemy units are too powerful to defeat. I do not have dwarves, orcs or fairies to help me in battle. If this new Battle System was designed with those units in mind, then it needs to be changed. Orcs and Cerberus guarding Crystal provinces were fun to fight. No longer are Paladins and Priests a force to be reckoned with when battling Orcs and their three-headed beasties. Treants and Sorceresses do not stand a chance against a Cerberus.

The Battle System before the change was great. Now, I do not even bother fighting anymore. Why? Because you cannot win. I lost 500 troops today because an Enchantress can cast deadly spells, and one hit from a Cannoneer killed off all my Cerberuses. It seems whoever can strike first wins. My troops are never within range but the enemy's troops always are. This is a terrible new Battle System.

I wish the game developers would sit down, go to a Crystal Province or wherever the Orcs and their three-headed beasties have moved to, and try to defeat the Orcs and Cerberus there, using only human or elven units. It is extremely difficult. Please redo the Battle System so the game becomes fun again. I'm off to mourn my 500 brave elven troops.
 

DeletedUser1657

Guest
Sure... He is playing in GOD mode so no big deal for him.
That quote of his was prior to the update on beta, the one below is a more recent quote

I was excited about this change because i'm a hardcore fighter. truth is though, that my units are dying faster than i can blink my eyes. Will do some more testing tomorrow. So far, it seems the enemy does a lot more damage than before the update while my units do little damage in return. The fact that the priest now has a range of only 5 instead of being able to hit the enemy on the entire field is something i don't like, and i say this a Goryn the player, not Goryn the moderator.

So even in GOD mode he is struggling. We should be grateful for the fact that someone as skilled as Goryn is trying to to learn the new system to help the rest of us.
 

DeletedUser240

Guest
Additional space ??? Do you know what you are talking about Mykan??
 

DeletedUser1657

Guest
Additional space ??? Do you know what you are talking about Mykan??
Under this combat system (and likely changes negotiation changes that will follow) a person new to the game today will never have the same space as a current end game player right now, all other things been equal. So a person at end of orcs now might have 300+ provinces but with new fight system a new(er) will only have around 190-200 provinces. Therefore players now have a 100 province advantage, and the space that comes with that, over someone not there yet.

This is not discounting any of the angst or other things that come with this update it is simply an alternate perspective to the same challenge we are all facing.
 

DeletedUser1548

Guest
Under this combat system (and likely changes negotiation changes that will follow) a person new to the game today will never have the same space as a current end game player right now, all other things been equal. So a person at end of orcs now might have 300+ provinces but with new fight system a new(er) will only have around 190-200 provinces. Therefore players now have a 100 province advantage, and the space that comes with that, over someone not there yet.

This is not discounting any of the angst or other things that come with this update it is simply an alternate perspective to the same challenge we are all facing.
True but accents are elsewhere.
Advanced players are advanced because of the time they play Elvenar. Scouting time is a main blocker and discrepancy between a chapter and no. of provinces cleared has it's source in waiting time for another guest race. Space is just a side effect here.
 

DeletedUser1681

Guest
Under this combat system (and likely changes negotiation changes that will follow) a person new to the game today will never have the same space as a current end game player right now, all other things been equal. So a person at end of orcs now might have 300+ provinces but with new fight system a new(er) will only have around 190-200 provinces. Therefore players now have a 100 province advantage, and the space that comes with that, over someone not there yet.

This is not discounting any of the angst or other things that come with this update it is simply an alternate perspective to the same challenge we are all facing.
I must say that I take this post at face value - what I mean is that a player who is starting now, or was unlucky enough to have just started before the update (like a friend of mine) will struggle to ever have the space that advanced players of today have.

My friend is not a complete newbie, but he has built a weakling army again and again - only to have it quickly killed. He says he's tried different combinations to no avail. So he sees himself in the position where his only option is just wait for kp's slowly add up so that his economy can upgrade and that way he might be able to buy/negotiate his way forward maybe getting military upgrades too that would change the situation. That was not the situation when he started in our local server half a year ago, he then felt that he had a chance even with a weaker army. He's not very motivated right now and fears that a newbie who's starting now won't bother for long.
Ok, that's his opinion - maybe he would be better off being a complete newbie without expectations. But I must agree with him, a player from our local server asked if I'd care to join another server where he and a cpl of friends were starting and I absolutely refused feeling that I would certainly find myself in the very same situation where my friend is - even if I would play 24/7.
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
So he sees himself in the position where his only option is just wait for kp's slowly add up so that his economy can upgrade and that way he might be able to buy/negotiate his way forward maybe getting military upgrades too that would change the situation.

Except that he will need factories to make goods to be able to clear the tech tree. In order to have those factories, you need houses for the population and workshops for the supplies. In order to have workshops you need more houses. In order to have both you need culture. And don't forget he needs ALL the ancient wonders, apparently upgraded pretty severely (or they aren't much good).

Of course he can't do any of that without space. Which you need in order to play this game!

So, Mykan, you can call it an "advantage" but without space there is no dang game! Heffernan's friend is completely SOL. If you are new you can't win because your army isn't big enough. If you have been here a long time, you can't win because the enemy is too big. I suppose there is some sweet spot where ONE player, somewhere, might be able to win a battle, but is that really on what they want to base an entire game? A teeny tiny sweet spot where you might be able to win a battle once? Just don't get too much space in order to build all those battle buildings you need, or you will be locked out of battles because you got too much space.

We won't be seen as the players with an advantage, we will be seen as the last players this game ever had.

Do you get my point? None of us are "fortunate" we don't have to "thank our lucky stars". This game is either playable or it isn't. There were so few of us who stuck around as the game was, and now they are going to cut that number even further? That is a foolish business decision. You need customers in order to have a game, don't you know? If this many people are telling the devs the battle situation is broken, it would behoove them to fix the dang thing! There isn't one solitary positive comment about the battle changes on the world map. Not a single one.
 

DeletedUser736

Guest
I run a small fellowship of not "hardcore" player. I built this fellowship for peoples like me who did'nt want to spend hours visiting cities andfollowing fellowship rules. It's really relaxed. And most of thoses non hardcore players are considering quitting the game since last update. I just got a message from my friend who said she consider the game broken, both because of the battles and the truckload of bugs introduced in the latest update.

My point is, you usually cannot use only the forums to determine what the majority thinks, because usually, only peoples who don't like something will bother to write about it on the forums. But in that case, if I take in consideration what my fellowship think about this, it appears the forum is correct. They are alienating players all over the place.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
That quote of his was prior to the update on beta, the one below is a more recent quote



So even in GOD mode he is struggling. We should be grateful for the fact that someone as skilled as Goryn is trying to to learn the new system to help the rest of us.
You are kidding right? I should be grateful that inno messed up the game totally? Now someone from inno is gonna help me figure it out?

That's like junkie stealing purse from an old lady and then he or his friend "volunteer" to help her finding the purse. ;)
 
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DeletedUser736

Guest
I just got my latest Cerberus upgrade (I'm not completely at the end of orcs yet, I've been focusing on wonders)

Well, upgrade is kind of ironic. They gained a 20% debuff on enemy armor wich means that now, my cerberus cancel the better debuff of my priests. In a nutshell, the Cercerus upgrade #3 is actually a downgrade.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I have an important question. We were told we would be getting an orc unit and that we would most likely need orc goods to unlock that tech. Now, we are told that the 2nd and 3rd part of the battle redesign aren't coming until AFTER the next guest race arrives. Do you expect us to keep farms for both guest races then??? Or has the orc unit been transformed into a unit for the new guest race?

Lots of ppl both on beta and in live servers have finished the orc race already and they are selling all the orc buildings, so I think it is very important to clarify this question.

Can someone tell please what's happening with the new unit and if we can safely sell our orc buildings?
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
I have an important question. We were told we would be getting an orc unit and that we would most likely need orc goods to unlock that tech. Now, we are told that the 2nd and 3rd part of the battle redesign aren't coming until AFTER the next guest race arrives. Do you expect us to keep farms for both guest races then??? Or has the orc unit been transformed into a unit for the new guest race?

Lots of ppl both on beta and in live servers have finished the orc race already and they are selling all the orc buildings, so I think it is very important to clarify this question.

Can someone tell please what's happening with the new unit and if we can safely sell our orc buildings?
I filled my portal with 2200 wisdom and 3300 loot before i trashed all the orc things. I hope it will be enough but i kinda fear it. I think we will not only get the orc unit in the research tree, but also a mercenary camp upgrade. and i'm not sure a full portal will be enough.

Also its pretty clear we will need orc goods for the unit, see mufmufs reaction about the question on page 7 of this thread
 
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DeletedUser629

Guest
I have an important question. We were told we would be getting an orc unit and that we would most likely need orc goods to unlock that tech. Now, we are told that the 2nd and 3rd part of the battle redesign aren't coming until AFTER the next guest race arrives. Do you expect us to keep farms for both guest races then??? Or has the orc unit been transformed into a unit for the new guest race?

Lots of ppl both on beta and in live servers have finished the orc race already and they are selling all the orc buildings, so I think it is very important to clarify this question.

Can someone tell please what's happening with the new unit and if we can safely sell our orc buildings?

As with the previous guest races, it is not wise to start selling your buildings yet until it's 100% sure you no longer need them.
 
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