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[Discussion] Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

Muf-Muf

Elvenar Team
Dear Humans and Elves,

Please use this thread to discuss our latest announcement: the Battle Redesign.

We're looking forward to your feedback and are here to answer your questions!

Kind regards,
Your Elvenar Team
 

Dony

King of Bugs
I still dont understand why i should use all my units before change. We will have 2 types of same units after change? 1 old and 1 new with different stats? As far as tournaments go this shouldnt affect it at all, since size is set in every same ring/difficulty.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
few advices:
1. start of the battle: when you press fight it should load map with all obstacles and all enemy units and AFTER that we should choose our own setup.
This should remove the need for starting battle with 1 squad of first type unit to see map and enemy movements, then leave battle and choose our own setup.

2. make another option in battle for fight without any animation, let all units just jump per tile, no movement animation, no dead animation, no damage animation, no bottom bar animation
I am a fighter person i spend 8 hours daily in tournamnets, where actual my strategy and movements take 20% of that time and all other time its just useless animation for me, loading every map 2 times etc.

3. make combat log in some corner (make that optional for people who wants that) so everybody can see what caused damage and what reduced damage, what debuff was applied by who and on who, it should be easy for everybody to see that something is wrong, even for developers. After turn end, in combat log should be noticed which debuff ended on who.
I could even give you example how that line in combat log should look if you care

4. let assign all my units with numbers 1-5 so i know which one is going next, in current system and with current bug its sometime impossible after 4-5 turns to see my units order if i use all same types, and just for the record my max turns are around 80 (EIGHTY), or fix the bug and let me see my unit highlighted on bottom bar when i mouse hover on them on battlefield (i dont know why this was removed few months back), it works for enemy units it doesnt work for our own

5. make shortcut for skipping turn with my unit (like D - defense or W - wait or S - skip)

6. and firtly remove that stupid rounding you are using for calculating damage its horrible and wrong, it doesnt make sence when 0 (ZERO) damage is not zero and you are taking damage behind the scene while showing 0.

I will write more later.
 

spinster

Well-Known Member
If I am reading the release correctly, the stats on the units will change, to balance out that the overall power of squads will increase with their size. Are squad sizes for tournaments going to be changed as well? Otherwise, the battle will get long and dull as the units will attack each other in the same way, but just have to do it more often or maybe it will stay the same if attack and health are changed in a balancing way.
I will wait and see how these changes work before deciding how I feel about them.
I will admit that I am confused about how issues involving the movement of fairy units are being addressed by changing the dynamic of squad sizes and the stats of the current units.
 
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ketjatekos

Well-Known Member
I still dont understand why i should use all my units before change. We will have 2 types of same units after change? 1 old and 1 new with different stats? As far as tournaments go this shouldnt affect it at all, since size is set in every same ring/difficulty.
If you have advanced units, the cost that you pay now, is bigger then the costs you will pay after the update (at least thats what I think, reading this through). Therefor it is wiser to use your troops and not building more of them, IF you have a huge army left.
This is not working if you are already short on units, since you have to constantly make new and new units.

So for example, I have 70 squads of Golems in my main world, which I made before upgrading to Golem II. For me it would be now wise to not produce more Golems before the update, and use what I created, because after the update I can create my Golems faster and cheaper then I can now.
On the other hand I have little to no Sworld Dancers (<10 squads), which I have to constantly create, because I use them as bate in several occasions.

Edit: That still not mean, you have to slaughter your units... they can be used after the update, the key is recreating them (or not recreating them)
 

ketjatekos

Well-Known Member
Yeah... everyone should decide whether they want to wait or not. We dont know yet, but you might even have a headstart if you have a huge army left... (since you can jumpstart with the encounters with new amounts and things)
But look at the bright side... They did tell us in forward.
 

Muf-Muf

Elvenar Team
If you have advanced units, the cost that you pay now, is bigger then the costs you will pay after the update (at least thats what I think, reading this through).
Yes, this is exactly right. :)

well that only apply to people with supply problems, which i dont have at all, and for me it doesnt make any sence to wait even if it will be cheaper/faster.
Yeah... everyone should decide whether they want to wait or not. We dont know yet, but you might even have a headstart if you have a huge army left...
This is a choice everyone will have to make for themselves. You will of course still be able to use any units you "have left" from before the rebalancing, so in absolute numbers you are not losing anything there. Still, they will be slightly devalued (more so for upgraded units), which is why we give this advice right now. But of course you are right when you say that you can still use them later on, too. :)
 

ag123

Well-Known Member
Cost does not matter when we speak about current army at hand.
I would think that we should not keep the army because, i.e. our 10 squads of Treants would become 5 new squads when all will be rebalanced. Or I misunderstood something? ;)
 

bobbipiazza

Guest
First, thank you for the spirit of giving us this advance notice. Please accept my comments or questions below in the same spirit.

You will of course still be able to use any units you "have left" from before the rebalancing, so in absolute numbers you are not losing anything there. Still, they will be slightly devalued (more so for upgraded units),
Based on the numbers in the release:

"For example: for 'Squad Size Upgrade 17' you would now get +12 on your maximum Squad Size. In the future, this would be +51 (3 x 17 = 51). "​

This means that a player with Squad Size 26, which is current 300 units, will convert to a squad size of 990. On face value, this isn't "slight devalued". In the interest of fair play, and to ensure that this new formation gets the warm welcome you'd like to see, please ask the Devs to update our existing armies according to their new values. We welcome beneficial changes, but don't appreciate them when they come with associated penalties. We'd all love to see this release begin in an unalloyed positive environment.

In this release: will units of type 1 and 2 become more useful? We noticed that the Bulwark was upgraded, and the Orc Wonder produces type 2 units. Should we consider this an indicator that the units will indeed be needed? As of now, Elven players use type 1 for cannon fodder, and type 2 almost never.

Sweeping changes like this can tend to make us apprehensive. The release mentions that the units will produce somewhat faster...but with a Squad Size of 990, how do we keep up with these kinds of numbers? If the production rate isn't increased at the 3:10 rate, will we instead see a decreased percentage of losses in our battles to compensate for the inability to reproduce?

Those of us playing Tournaments have an idea of how many Provinces / levels we can win via manual fighting - and how long it takes to replace those units so we can replenish our losses. This is the bottom line we value (the supply costs can be worked around). I hope this is a primary factor that the devs are taking into account. No matter how good it seems in theory, if the end result means that we see a reduction in our ability to win KP/Relics/Runes every week, fairy units et all will seem like a $100 rebate on a $1000 tax bill.
Consider what Dony said above: "...I am a fighter person i spend 8 hours daily in tournaments....." This is how much we'll do in order to gain the Tournament results.

I can't emphasize how much we'd appreciate Dony's suggestion "2. make another option in battle for fight without any animation, let all units just jump per tile, no movement animation, no dead animation, no damage animation, no bottom bar animation.." Player participation would increase, too, because sometimes fighting is just a chore we need to get out of the way, like collecting goods.

Will the Merc Camp still function as a placeholder or will it offer its own queue?



Grazie
 
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Muf-Muf

Elvenar Team
Thanks for the many questions and feedback already, it's a pleasure to read!

I would think that we should not keep the army because, i.e. our 10 squads of Treants would become 5 new squads when all will be rebalanced. Or I misunderstood something? ;)
While the numbers you mention are of course just examples and not real values (have to say it), the general idea is indeed correct. :)

please ask the Devs to update our existing armies according to their new values
Unfortunately this is not possible, which is partly why we now give this advance notice now. ;)

In this release: will units of type 1 and 2 become more useful? We noticed that the Bulwark was upgraded, and the Orc Wonder produces type 2 units. Should we consider this an indicator that the units will indeed be needed? As of now, Elven players use type 1 for cannon fodder, and type 2 almost never.
We will give you more information about the relations between units very soon. Stay tuned for that! :)

Sweeping changes like this can tend to make us apprehensive. The release mentions that the units will produce somewhat faster...but with a Squad Size of 990, how do we keep up with these kinds of numbers? If the production rate isn't increased at the 3:10 rate, will we instead see a decreased percentage of losses in our battles to compensate for the inability to reproduce?
The training speed and training sizes will be rebalanced accordingly. We balance the game to have it in a way where you would be able to make X squads per day on average - that number will not change. So, if that means you need more units to fill a squad, we will make sure that you are able to recruit enough units in that time to fill the squads.

Lastly, will the Merc Camp still function as a placeholder or will it offer its own queue?
It will not remain a placeholder, and it will become useful. Also for that goes - more information will follow soon! :)
 

Jouchka

Well-Known Member
And how will these updates be rolled out?
- All together, or in the new way favourites first...
 

Muf-Muf

Elvenar Team
Currently we plan on releasing all changes (more details are still coming) in three packages, the first of which we'll see in several weeks on Beta.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
just a quick questions:
Enemy units will be rebalanced aswell?
Our units will have rebalanced damage and HP or HP stays the same as now?
Because if enemy units will stay the same and our HP is lowered then there is no difference on ring 11+, squad of cerberus will one shot archers/sorceresses same way as they do now in first round, regardless if we have 300 units with 4.8k hp or 900 units with 4.8k hp total
And it will devalue monastery a bit aswell, unless we get rid of rounding
 

Lord Jirre

Well-Known Member
Enemy units will be rebalanced as well. They're based on our units, sometime even use the same units, so it makes sense that they'll be rebalanced.
As for Cereberii instantly killing Archers/Sorceresses, they're kinda supposed to do that. I doubt that changes much.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
I wouldnt be so sure about that, some units have different stats/mechanic in tournament then in province
 

DeletedUser629

Guest
As a hardcore fighter myself, i can only applaud these changes :)