[Discussion] Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

[DeletedUser1549]

Combat difficulty for tournaments depends only on distance from your town.

the amount of provinces a player has affects the dificulty of the tournament (what i am not sure is if it is the amount of provinces descovered or the amount of provinces finished, and that is my question, @Marindor andwered in a way that i can't say i get it)

it is not the same dificulty for a player that has 3 provinces for example (just started playing the game no long ago) and a player that has been playing for over a year.

We can take firt star from the tournament (the closest to your town), the player that just started has lower enemies and lower cater costs. the player that have beem playing for a year has much bigger enemies. both are at the same distance from your town.

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

I'll check in about 16 hours, when the next round starts. But so far I see no real difference in the opponents, only in the catering costs.

 

[DeletedUser736]

It has been the first time since the new update I try my crossbow, mostly because it is the first time it is sensible to use them. It has been said before, and it has been clearly stated that they were working on improving the AI, so I won't talk about this. But fighting last tournament with my mages and now this one with a mix or crossbows and paladins, I think some of the issues about initiative could be easily solved by simply enlarging the map a little bit. Of course, I cannot "test" out an enlarged map, and by enlarged, I really mean, not by much, because the game would suffer from a much larger map. But making the map a tiny bigger could ensure that mages and crossbow cannot actually attack on the first round. That would leave units like mortar a first strike opportunity, but theses units usually suffer from really lower damage, so in the end, I think it matter less.

Preventing first strike from archer and mages, no matter from which side, would mean players would have a chance to place themselves, and plan a better defense. Of course, f you choose, on your first move, to step within range, then that would be a choice. It would also allow player to actually choose which unit will suffer from the first damage dealt.

That would add an interesting layer of strategy, and would also probably make fights a bit more easier if you play it right. Also, and more importantly, that would means unfair heavy losses on the first round would not occur ever again. Sometimes, just by the order you selected the troop you send in battle (which determines their initial placement) makes the difference between a fair fight, and your troops being needlessly slaughtered on first round.

I did not calculate by how much the map should be enlarged to prevent first round strike by mages and archers, but that would be 2 hex at most, maybe even just 1. But that would make things so much more interesting.

 

[Dony]

the amount of provinces a player has affects the dificulty of the tournament (what i am not sure is if it is the amount of provinces descovered or the amount of provinces finished, and that is my question, @Marindor andwered in a way that i can't say i get it)

it is not the same dificulty for a player that has 3 provinces for example (just started playing the game no long ago) and a player that has been playing for over a year.

We can take firt star from the tournament (the closest to your town), the player that just started has lower enemies and lower cater costs. the player that have beem playing for a year has much bigger enemies. both are at the same distance from your town.

like i said a lot of times, it doesnt matter if you are in chapter 2 or in chapter 9, all encounters are exactly the same, difference is with negotiation cost,
what marindor said is, that if you fight in 2nd, 3rd etc ring you meet bigger enemy squad size as well as yours, this is the same as it was in old system
second thing is that later in rings which are more far away you meet enemies at higher level, for example at ring 1 you meet archer I, at ring 5 you meet archer lvl3 with buff/debuff, this is a new thing in tournament, wasnt present in old system and thus making more variety for combat since you need to use different strategy against units lvl3

 

[DeletedUser651]

Noone is "blaming" anyone for that, for all you did was play the game and try to get as far ahead as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. The only thing is: We see now how this goes in practice and if we don't do something about that, it will bring even bigger balance issues in the future. If anyone is to blame for this situation, it's us. We should have seen that coming from the start and the battle balance should have been better all along. The truth is, this wasn't the case so we had to make some adjustments now. This limits the top players now and we're sincerely sorry for that but we do feel that it's necessary to restore the balance and keep the game fun and challening in the long run, which is our aim. In terms of extra World Map expansions, you're totally right because you will be limited here now until you are a bit further in your tech tree again (and the number of scouted provinces matches this progression).

In practice, many players, from every level are being limited. This was presented as something done to "limit the top players" but it is affecting every player. So, I don't know why top players were singled out since all players have been limited. I resent that they were because it has pitted player against player on the US forums. Some players started attacking everyone for not playing correctly and not being smart enough to see this coming and other such nasty things. Rather than being buried in this forum where almost none of the US players see it, it would be nice if there could be an official statement that the top players are not to be blamed for having played the game. (Something like what you posted in this thread a while back) According to the rules, I am not even allowed to post your apology there.

And btw, the newbies aren't finding this challenging or fun either, they are just unhappy. You have these tiny, tiny windows where people are not too far behind or too far ahead. They are just as limited as we are. More actually.

I tried these tournaments today. On level 1, the easy baby round where I have much bigger troop sizes than the opponent, by province 5 I am losing great numbers of troops. I was able to do provinces of 30+ in the old system with the same amount of actual time in training troops (I know the new troops are faster, I am talking about the amount of real time it takes to train the troops I lost). I can't play this game as much as I could before. I was able to play 30 fights, and now I can play 5 fights. That is a lot less playing time. I assume as game sellers that you want people playing the game and not off doing something else or finding some other game to take up their interest. If that is the case, then something is wrong. You have less of a game here for people to play.

Let me be clear, I am not saying I can't win a battle in province 6 on level 1, but it takes time and resources to train troops. Time and resources that cost me a great deal less before for the same amount of playing time.

 

[DeletedUser736]

Here is a suggestion for the dev Marindor. For starter, I'd like to say I am happy with the 1.17 update on the aspect of battles. I still think the game would benefit from a slightly bigger map, but with this new update, there is another thing I'd love to see implemented. Stackable debuffs. It annoys me to no end, for instance, that I would use a priest to soften up an opponent, but end up having a worse debuff placed on the target by the attacking Paladin just afterward. With update 1.17, that should now be possible since now, you cannot break the battle by reducing damage to 0

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

the amount of provinces a player has affects the dificulty of the tournament (what i am not sure is if it is the amount of provinces descovered or the amount of provinces finished, and that is my question, @Marindor andwered in a way that i can't say i get it)

it is not the same dificulty for a player that has 3 provinces for example (just started playing the game no long ago) and a player that has been playing for over a year.

We can take firt star from the tournament (the closest to your town), the player that just started has lower enemies and lower cater costs. the player that have beem playing for a year has much bigger enemies. both are at the same distance from your town.

In all three worlds I have Steel as a boosted good, so I have a Steel province right next to my town. All provinces are at 1 star

World: Beta, 27 completed provinces
- 860 Coins, 120 Supplies, 2 Steel / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 16 Orc Warrior, 16 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 290 Coins, 150 Supplies / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 16 Orc Warrior, 16 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage, 11 Thornrose Mage (exactly the same opponents as the above encounter)
- 290 Coins, 150 Supplies, 3 Steel / 7 Swamp Monster, 44 Thieves, 22 Orc Warrior, 15 Thornrose Mage
- 430 Coins, 49 Supplies, 3 Steel / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 32 Thieves, 16 Orc Warrior, 16 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 98 Supplies, 5 Steel / 36 Thieves, 36 Thieves, 18 Orc Warrior, 12 Thornrose Mage, 12 Thornrose Mage
- 860 Coins, 2 Steel / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 16 Orc Warrior, 16 Orc Warrior, 16 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 710 Coins, 98 Supplies, 1 Steel / 44 Thieves, 22 Orc Warrior, 22 Orc Warrior, 15 Thornrose Mage
- 570 Coins, 73 Supplies, 1 Steel / 6 Swamp Monster, 18 Orc Warrior, 18 Orc Warrior, 12 Thornrose Mage, 12 Thornrose Mage

World: Arendyll on EN server, 130 completed provinces
- 1900 Coins, 320 Supplies, 61 Steel / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 640 Coins, 390 Supplies / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 640 Coins, 390 Supplies, 77 Marble / 7 Swamp Monster, 44 Thieves, 7 Orc Warrior, 15 Thornrose Mage
- 970 Coins, 130 Supplies, 92 Steel / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 32 Thieves, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 260 Supplies, 120 Steel / 36 Thieves, 36 Thieves, 6 Orc Warrior, 12 Thornrose Mage, 12 Thornrose Mage
- 1900 Coins, 61 Steel / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 1600 Coins, 260 Supplies, 46 Steel / 44 Thieves, 7 Orc Warrior, 7 Orc Warrior, 15 Thornrose Mage
- 1300 Coins, 190 Supplies, 31 Steel / 6 Swamp Monster, 6 Orc Warrior, 6 Orc Warrior, 12 Thornrose Mage, 12 Thornrose Mage


World: Winyandor on EN server, 197 completed provinces
- 610 Supplies, 300 Steel, 100 Scrolls / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 730 Supplies, 130 Scrolls / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 730 Supplies, 380 Steel, 130 Scrolls / 7 Swamp Monster, 44 Thieves, 7 Orc Warrior, 15 Thornrose Mage
- 240 Supplies, 450 Steel, 170 Scrolls / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 32 Thieves, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 480 Supplies, 610 Steel, 67 Scrolls / 36 Thieves, 36 Thieves, 6 Orc Warrior, 12 Thornrose Mage, 12 Thornrose Mage
- 300 Steel, 270 Scrolls / 5 Swamp Monster, 32 Thieves, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 5 Orc Warrior, 11 Thornrose Mage
- 480 Supplies, 230 Steel, 67 Scrolls / 44 Thieves, 7 Orc Warrior, 7 Orc Warrior, 15 Thornrose Mage
- 360 Supplies, 150 Steel, 200 Scrolls / 6 Swamp Monster, 6 Orc Warrior, 6 Orc Warrior, 12 Thornrose Mage, 12 Thornrose Mage


Orc Warrior's stats were changed it 1.17. It had its size decreased from 6 to 2, and most likely the other stats were changed as well. That is why there are fewer Orc Warriors per group on EN server. Apart from that no difference in the enemies between Beta and the EN server.

I admit I forgot to make a note if the enemies are Swamp Monster I or Swamp Monster II, and Thief I or Thief II, but considering that on both Beta and Arendyll I face Thief II, Swamp Monster II and Knight II in the fourth tournament province I think the opponents are exactly the same, only the catering cost is different.

 

[DeletedUser1548]

In short words...
Steel Tournament - first province - third star.
Auto-fight ends up in losing everything.
Need to cater.

I am in Dwarves chapter and have 166 provinces cleared.

 

[DeletedUser1657]

In short words...
Steel Tournament - first province - third star.
Auto-fight ends up in losing everything.
Need to cater.

I am in Dwarves chapter and have 166 provinces cleared.

This must vary by place in tech tree or something. I have a couple towns in orcs and auto-fight works 9/10 times, reasonable for a town in fairies. I have a town entering dwarves, provinces on track and all techs current (except cerberus) and it failed on auto-fight every time.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I forget the chart, 3rd star is 120% your size?

 

[Dony]

I forget the chart, 3rd star is 120% your size?

yes

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

Here's a battle that I find EXTREMELY annoying:

As you can see my Treants are blocked by the Hellhouds, and since Treants have no attack bonus against Light Melee it took a few turns to kill the stupid dogs and clear the way. End result:


Treants are supposed to be the best units for this battle, as they have high bonuses against Heavy Ranged and decent defense bonus against Light Melee. I could have sent Light Ranged and/or Light Melee, which would have cost me a lot more units due to enemy bonuses.

This type of map, where my units are on the left side behind a wall and only one enemy group can reach them at a time, is great if there are many enemy Melee units but is quite annoying in cases like the above, where the enemy has multiple ranged attackers that I can't even reach for several turns.

 

[DeletedUser1345]

I understand how far we are allowed to fight in the provinces. What we need to know is how far we are allowed to fight in the tournaments. At what point are the units stacked against us to the point of impossibility in the tournament battles? Units can't even do well against opponents that they are supposed to have an advantage against in tournaments, just like the provinces. We are supposed to fail, so it seems fair that we should know at what point we are supposed to fail.
There are no upgrades of current units, and squad size upgrades do not help in the tournaments. The merc units are unimpressive.
Too many players have been playing this game wrong. We need instructions in how to play it right. Lack of these instructions many are coming to the conclusion that we are not meant to enjoy the gaming experience the way we have, so a little clarity would help us know if we are supposed to enjoy it at all.
Now you are working on the battle graphics. Does the Hindenburg really need a new paint job?

 

[DeletedUser1548]

About new units...
I find it difficult to use them. It's not about their strength it's about their number.

They are all pretty the same. Why should I take any effort to learn when should I use Sword Dancer, when Cerberus and when Drone Rider?
Result is always the same. Units are the same. Only appearance vary.
I know Cerberus should run to kill mages or something but I have no idea what Drone Rider should do. I could think of something but honestly... Is it worth it?

And this jumping between three army buildings, in an army setup going between tabs just to see the same units everywhere. And it seems every guest race will add even more units.

We have 9 basic goods and so far: 5 basic soldiers + Cerberus + 2 Fairy + 1 Woodelves = 9 units already and it's not the end. More complicated battle system, battle Tournaments, battles in provinces and less and less options to actually build a city. We can't even build anything together with other players (except of wonders, but that's not what I meant).

I'm not sure we should call Elvenar city builder right now.

 

[DeletedUser]

I quit fighting all together, even auto fighting. It's no fun and most of the time you can't win. Soon we will have 15 different units and probably the enemy will also have as many, that's 15 vs 15 units ! And don't forget about all the special buffs each units will have. How do they expect us to keep track which units/buffs are good against others and which are not ?? Sorry, but I simply won't do that. If I could sell my barrack I would have because it's totally useless for me now.

 

[DeletedUser1665]

I just started my Beta account back up. I'm on the 3rd ring out and my research has gone as far as squad size 3, Seriously I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag at this point and with only 4 level 3 plank manufactory negotiations are all but impossible now.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I just started my Beta account back up. I'm on the 3rd ring out and my research has gone as far as squad size 3, Seriously I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag at this point and with only 4 level 3 plank manufactory negotiations are all but impossible now.

My beta has squad upgrade #5, and ring 3 are winnable with autofight losing 1-1.5 stacks.
every squad size upgrade makes a HUGE difference now, your 24 vs my 51 stacks.

 

[DeletedUser736]

I made it to the last star of the tournament in one province this morning, and I found the fights very doable. Losses depend a lot on the terrain, but the worse it got was about 75% of my troop, with an average of about 50% of my troop loss, which is'nt much since it was the first province. I think theses are reasonable losses considering that this is the last rank of the tournament and it should be tough.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I made it to the last star of the tournament in one province this morning, and I found the fights very doable. Losses depend a lot on the terrain, but the worse it got was about 75% of my troop, with an average of about 50% of my troop loss, which is'nt much since it was the first province. I think theses are reasonable losses considering that this is the last rank of the tournament and it should be tough.

Ok, so if you lost 75% of your troops on star 6 of province #1, what losses would you expect on provinces 2 through 6? I'm too lazy to put the time in, but I assume it gets harder

EDIT: I just saw this:

Now you are working on the battle graphics. Does the Hindenburg really need a new paint job?

LMAO, thank you

 

[DeletedUser1657]

Ok, so if you lost 75% of your troops on star 6 of province #1, what losses would you expect on provinces 2 through 6? I'm too lazy to put the time in, but I assume it gets harder

Tournament difficulty doesn't get harder the further out you go its just the squad sizes get bigger. You are still out numbered 1 to 1.8, due to the larger squads though losing 50% of your troops can be the difference between losing 20 archers or 100 archers.