Karvest
Well-Known Member
@TomatoeHu
raw data in the bottom can be copy-pasted into excel sheet
https://pastebin.com/Xh8Cy9Ld
https://pastebin.com/Xh8Cy9Ld
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Discussion Crafting on Beta
- Thread starter Muf-Muf
- Start date
Deleted User - 60107
Guest
On the topic of disadvantages:
- Initially the Humans have a bigger Main Hall - but eventually both races have the same size of Main Hall
- Initially Humans have a bigger Trader - but starting with Halflings both races have the same size
- Humans have a smaller Magic Academy - 5x4 for them vs 5x5 for Elves
- Humans have a smaller Builders' Hut - 2x3 vs 3x3 for Elves
Elves have smaller Planks Manufactory at level 1 - 2x1 vs the Humans' 2x2. The Marble and Steel ones are the same size.
Anyway, I hope the issue with refreshing the Crafting recipes is fixed some time soon, preferably BEFORE this feature reaches the live worlds - it's really annoying having to open the MA twice just to see the new recipes.
- Initially the Humans have a bigger Main Hall - but eventually both races have the same size of Main Hall
- Initially Humans have a bigger Trader - but starting with Halflings both races have the same size
- Humans have a smaller Magic Academy - 5x4 for them vs 5x5 for Elves
- Humans have a smaller Builders' Hut - 2x3 vs 3x3 for Elves
Elves have smaller Planks Manufactory at level 1 - 2x1 vs the Humans' 2x2. The Marble and Steel ones are the same size.
Anyway, I hope the issue with refreshing the Crafting recipes is fixed some time soon, preferably BEFORE this feature reaches the live worlds - it's really annoying having to open the MA twice just to see the new recipes.
TomatoeHu
Well-Known Member
edeba
Well-Known Member
No way, a chapter 6 player could NEVER scout 240+ provinces if they had an orc's nest that made orcs.
Based on it taking 4 provinces to increase by 100k of coin, maximum would be 112 provinces because the main hall would stop you because of not having enough coin. But after 42 provinces you get a jump in cost because of a ring, which I think would be 400k, so that would mean 16 provinces less, so maximum would be 96 provinces. I think you'd even hit another 400k jump at another 48 provinces, which would mean 90 provinces would be the maximum that you could scout with the main hall restriction and the ability to get orcs at chapter 6.
The cost of completing those 90 provinces is very high both in terms of having pretty low level t2 and t3 manufacturies and they use a lot goods.
I was going to suggest based on the orcs from the orc nest for the later chapters 120 orcs for a chapter 6 orc nest, but it could be half that or 1/3rd that. I think at 120 orcs/day it would take a couple years to get enough orcs for 90 provinces.
You could make it that at chapter 6 you are only allowed one orcs nest, and chapter 7 only allowed 2, although main hall upgrades would enable the ability to scout more provinces than you could at chapter 6.
I don't see why the game has to be so set in stone for a single strategy for how to play the game.
Based on it taking 4 provinces to increase by 100k of coin, maximum would be 112 provinces because the main hall would stop you because of not having enough coin. But after 42 provinces you get a jump in cost because of a ring, which I think would be 400k, so that would mean 16 provinces less, so maximum would be 96 provinces. I think you'd even hit another 400k jump at another 48 provinces, which would mean 90 provinces would be the maximum that you could scout with the main hall restriction and the ability to get orcs at chapter 6.
The cost of completing those 90 provinces is very high both in terms of having pretty low level t2 and t3 manufacturies and they use a lot goods.
I was going to suggest based on the orcs from the orc nest for the later chapters 120 orcs for a chapter 6 orc nest, but it could be half that or 1/3rd that. I think at 120 orcs/day it would take a couple years to get enough orcs for 90 provinces.
You could make it that at chapter 6 you are only allowed one orcs nest, and chapter 7 only allowed 2, although main hall upgrades would enable the ability to scout more provinces than you could at chapter 6.
I don't see why the game has to be so set in stone for a single strategy for how to play the game.
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
This is completely wrong. You need a minimum of 130 provinces cleared to get out of chapter 6, so clearly the max possible is more than 112.
Province scouting cost in coins does not go up 100K per 4 provinces. Not even close.
My FS member is in early dwarf chapter with 107 provinces cleared and the next one costs 440K
When the orc limit was added to the game there were players in chapter 6 who had already cleared passed the 222 provinces no-orc limit. Far more in chapter 7.
This is simply a fact.
The reason for the orc limit is human nature.
Players will "over scout" to get more expansions. It makes sense, expansions are good. However, they eventually get addicted to getting 10+ expansions per chapter and never learn how to be efficient. This leads to frustration down the line, and there is no fix because the developers simply can't give unlimited space without ruining the game.
So they put gates in. Force players to spread out their expansion acquisition a little bit. Orcs isn't even halfway through the game, so players need to learn to play with half the endgame space or else they are doomed.
BTW, if you thought that scouting past 220 provinces was impossible in chapter 6, why would you want orc nests to give you orcs in chapter 6? Just so you could stockpile for 2-3 months until you hit chapter 8?
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edeba
Well-Known Member
The 240+ provinces past the orc ring is pretty close to the maximum scouting provinces for all available expansions. The context of the original discussion was about creating access to the provinces with orcs...
I don't even begin to understand why you would use a 240+ number of provinces reference when you would have 222 before the first orc ring and with my looking at restrictions, 90 more provinces would be available, 312 possible with access to orcs in chapter 6 with coin restrictions from the main hall.
So now the argument is not that the game is unbalanced and people will stop playing the tech tree but it is because players don't learn to be efficient and will be frustrated later?
I can scout even though I can't complete provinces, so on chapter 6 province 224 cost 2.9 million coin. I can scout and keep track of how much the cost is going up. It sure looked like it was going up by 100k every 4 provinces, but I can test that out since you disagree. 37 more hours until that scout finishes.
I don't even begin to understand why you would use a 240+ number of provinces reference when you would have 222 before the first orc ring and with my looking at restrictions, 90 more provinces would be available, 312 possible with access to orcs in chapter 6 with coin restrictions from the main hall.
So now the argument is not that the game is unbalanced and people will stop playing the tech tree but it is because players don't learn to be efficient and will be frustrated later?
I can scout even though I can't complete provinces, so on chapter 6 province 224 cost 2.9 million coin. I can scout and keep track of how much the cost is going up. It sure looked like it was going up by 100k every 4 provinces, but I can test that out since you disagree. 37 more hours until that scout finishes.
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
Looks like we have a failure in understanding. I said "240+" as in "over 240" meaning 3 or more expansion beyond what is currently possible due to the orc limit.
I did not say"+240" as in "they could clear 462" total..
When asked why it was undesirable, the learning curve and efficiency lessons etc were given as an explanation.
I, for one, completely agree with the developer's decision. In fact, I wish they had gone further and added more roadblocks as well as gated limits on premium expansions so that I wouldn't have to read complaints every single chapter and every single event from players who never learned how to manage space.
By far those who complain the most about space are those who gained ~80% of available expansions in the first half of the game.
My main point though is that there is really no need at all to gain orcs in chapter 6. If you have cleared nearly 100 more provinces than needed, then using those extra ~11 expansions you should be in chapter 8 in a matter of weeks.
If you want to do some strange strategy where you stay in chapter 6 on purpose for 3 years instead of 1 month, expect some set backs.
I did not say"+240" as in "they could clear 462" total..
Again, you misunderstood me. I was saying that allowing a player to go over 222 up to 240 and beyond is bad, and is possible without MH coins issues.
It's not an argument at all, the developers straight up told us that players becoming unbalanced and relying on a massive number of expansions in the early chapters due to focusing on the world map instead of techs is not desirable.
When asked why it was undesirable, the learning curve and efficiency lessons etc were given as an explanation.
I, for one, completely agree with the developer's decision. In fact, I wish they had gone further and added more roadblocks as well as gated limits on premium expansions so that I wouldn't have to read complaints every single chapter and every single event from players who never learned how to manage space.
By far those who complain the most about space are those who gained ~80% of available expansions in the first half of the game.
My main point though is that there is really no need at all to gain orcs in chapter 6. If you have cleared nearly 100 more provinces than needed, then using those extra ~11 expansions you should be in chapter 8 in a matter of weeks.
If you want to do some strange strategy where you stay in chapter 6 on purpose for 3 years instead of 1 month, expect some set backs.
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DeletedUser2576
Guest
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
Losing a few squares is balanced out in that elves have 2/3 small tier one buildings for events, and humans only have marble.So in conclusion elves in Lategame are even more in disadvantage
It doesn't matter what your boost is, if you are elf, then 1 planks+1 steel+1 marble is smaller than if you are human.
The really unfair part is that some players get a 1x2 building for "Produce 48 Tier one 12 times" quests and other players get 2x2 buildings.
Deleted User - 86059
Guest
Still not about Crafting on Beta guys
Heymrdiedier
Well-Known Member
i tought the size difference of the buildershut compensated for that
i dont think theres much to say about crafting now untill some changes have been implementedStill not about Crafting on Beta guys
DeletedUser2378
Guest
My fellowship is trying to figure out, with Supports help, if we're all receiving different offers every 8 hours. It seems like we're not all receiving the same offers, which is fine. We'd just like to know if this is suppose to happen. Also, the timer seems different for everyone.
DeletedUser2586
Guest
Hello,
First of all sorry if I repeat elements already mentioned because I did not read the 12 pages post. I stopped at the 6th.
However I also wanted to give my opinion to participate in the community as a young member of the beta because I am currently in Chapter III.
The positive points :
-The idea is great!
- The possibility to choose the reward you want
- The diversity of rewards (good for a chapter III)
The negative points :
- It's expensive !!! By reading your comments, some of you are happy because you have elements in excess but as a small player, the resources available are not as important. So, disenchanting some resources is really a choice that must be reflected. And still despite that the benefit is sometimes much less.
Personal review :
This is an excellent idea that I would have liked accessible to all but in the end is rather reserved for former players who already have a good reserve useless.
Hoping that you will take into account this small point of view of low level player in order to be able to involve and interress all the players to this evolution of the MA which has a big potential.
Thanks to you for the work done anyway!
Shlaag
First of all sorry if I repeat elements already mentioned because I did not read the 12 pages post. I stopped at the 6th.
However I also wanted to give my opinion to participate in the community as a young member of the beta because I am currently in Chapter III.
The positive points :
-The idea is great!
- The possibility to choose the reward you want
- The diversity of rewards (good for a chapter III)
The negative points :
- It's expensive !!! By reading your comments, some of you are happy because you have elements in excess but as a small player, the resources available are not as important. So, disenchanting some resources is really a choice that must be reflected. And still despite that the benefit is sometimes much less.
Personal review :
This is an excellent idea that I would have liked accessible to all but in the end is rather reserved for former players who already have a good reserve useless.
Hoping that you will take into account this small point of view of low level player in order to be able to involve and interress all the players to this evolution of the MA which has a big potential.
Thanks to you for the work done anyway!
Shlaag
SoggyShorts
Well-Known Member
Like @Heymrdiedier said we're kinda waiting to see what gets implemented from the latest round of suggestions and feedback.Still not about Crafting on Beta guys
The lowering of the costs for TM1&2 is a welcome tweak thanks@inno for hearing us, and @Karvest for letting us know. @devs- when you implement something that we ask for, you should be the ones to tell us! Soak in that player love when you can! LoL
Summary of feedback that hasn't been implemented/addressed since latest tweaks:
- Disenchanting event buildings in our city: Once our supply of old inventory buildings is gone, there is no steady source of Spell Fragments. For newer players, there is really no significant source at all. Getting something back for older event buildings is an excellent way to encourage a player to keep their city fresh while giving access to the new crafting feature.
- Disenchanting Relics: Many players gain more relics each week than the MA can consume, and there really isn't anything you can do with your boosted ones after 500.
- Disenchanting Broken Runes: This one is something the player base has been asking for for years, and crafting is the perfect chance for inno to do it. There are recipes for getting Broken Rune Shards, so if disenchanting BR gave close to enough SF to make a BRS then we could stop building wonders that we don't want just to delete them and smash runes on the wheel repeatedly.
- Broken Rune Shards Another issue (always having 10/10) that can be fixed with crafting. Either a special recipe that costs 10 BRS, or let us disenchant them.
- New building ideas for crafting - Light melee, Light range and Mage versions of the Vallorian Vallor and Grounds of the Orc Strategist.
- Set Buildings as a recipe Only the most recent set buildings should be offered so as not to flood the list.
- Unique crafting set: A set of buildings that are only available through crafting.
- Other sources of Combining Catalyst spells: Tournament rewards, visit chests etc.
- A way to see all possible recipes This list exists in the database and is how our 5 recipes are generated, it just needs to be displayed to the player
- The overflow of "same" recipes. Having 8 Coin rains and 8 supply windfalls is overly redundant. 5%, 25%, and 50% is enough variety of those. 2x5KP instant and a 10 KP instant is also unnecessary, lose the 10 KP one. The 3 codices, 4 Flames, and observatory that are all 2x2 pure culture might be a little much as well.
- Relic recipes These have some major flaws. If a player needs relics from crafting, there is only a ~1% chance of the right recipe appearing, but for players who don't need them, the recipes take up 10% of their slots. Using these recipes as a way to get Vision Vapor offers some functionality, but the cost of 300 SF and a CC makes most of the other recipes better for farming VV.
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CrazyWizard
Well-Known Member
and off course only daily set buildings.
Good way to have players who somehow failed to still complete there set.
Heymrdiedier
Well-Known Member
im not sure about that, would you still spend diamonds during the event, if you knew you could get the buildings afterwards by crafting?
ofcourse as a player i would love this, but im not sure its good for inno business.