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Why Orcs are needed after 10th provinces circle?

  • Thread starter DeletedUser1548
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DeletedUser629

Guest
Of course they're entirely locked. Without orcs, no provinces.

You don't need Orcs to scout provinces, and you can clear all encounters by fighting for them. So they're not locked entirely, they're locked for negotiations until you have Orcs.

And, with regard to the difficulty of fighting Province Encounters overall: we're forgetting about the loss of the Fairy Units. Surely, when determining the difficulty of the Ring 11 and above provinces, the developers assumed that their Fairy Units were going to be available!

No, they didn't. I've been fighting in ring 12-13 since before the Dwarves arrived, and haven't had any problems conquering provinces. Then they gave me storm barbarians and blessed paladins, and it made fighting a lot easier again. Fairies gave me priest III, and he's awesome.

Surely i'm not the only fighter in the building, so whenever people face problems defeating a certain encounter, ask for help.
 

DeletedUser283

Guest
this evening, I tried to fight an encounter in an elixir province @ ring 11
there were 2 necros, 1 golem II and the rest was a mix of treants and treants II, for a total of 8 ennemy squads;
I fought valiantly, but I lost...
I cannot win this encounter through fighting, which means I cannot complete this province;
I cannot negociate this encounter to eventually complete the province because I am still researching swamp trails : no orc-producing armouries for me yet;

regarding ring 10, I think I have cleared it way before tournaments arrived : I have cleared more than thalf of ring 11 and tournaments have greatly reduced may fighting capabilities (because barracks, blah blah blah, you know the drill )

I think orcs as a 4th type of goods to negociate the provinces is not the issue;
what goes wrong here is the way they are brought into the picture : I have cleared ring 10 at the beginning of the dwarves chapter, if not before (I lost track of all this), mostly through fighting, although I had to negociate some encounters that were too hard to be fought properly (or that I just could not fight then);
I do not think that I am such an talented fighter, I just have experience from FoE on choosing units and moving them around the battlefield, so that other players here must be way ahead of me - and this of course includes all those who cleared dozens of provinces through negociation, (which is something I do not like to do, also from FoE, because there it did not use to bring any ranking points when negociating)

IMHO, orcs should not be brought into the negociation process according to the progress of the player on the map, but rather according to his/her progress in the tech tree :
it is absurd to require players to pay orcs to negociate when they are not able to provide them, having not yet researched the armoury upgrade o_O
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
IMHO, orcs should not be brought into the negociation process according to the progress of the player on the map, but rather according to his/her progress in the tech tree :
it is absurd to require players to pay orcs to negociate when they are not able to provide them, having not yet researched the armoury upgrade o_O

I 100% agree.

You don't need Orcs to scout provinces, and you can clear all encounters by fighting for them

I 100% disagree.

English is my native language and one of the meanings of the word CAN means "able to". I am unable to win most fights in these provinces. Not even close. And if I can maybe win one of the sectors, I lose 90% of my troops and it takes days to get the next one. Maybe one of the best fighters in the game, namely you Goryn, have found a way to win all these fights with the troops you make in a few days, but I sure can't. I can't even keep trying because I lose the all the troops in one fight. Moreover, why should fighting be the only way I am now able to clear that province?

Regarding the comment on having a particular ancient wonder. That is laughable. Unless you mean buying one. Because I can't get the required number of runes to build those wonders if I can't clear the provinces! And even if I did buy that wonder, I couldn't upgrade it because I need the KP to clear the tech tree in order to get to the orcs. Not to mention, there are already numerous threads about the impossibility of getting the runes you need to build the newer wonders, even if I didn't need the kp to upgrade them that I need to clear the tech to get to the armories and the houses needed to get the orcs to clear the provinces.

Telling me that my city is poorly designed because it can't handle the new population requirements is interesting. So, the only way I can keep playing this game is to destroy most of the city I have now in order to build nothing but houses so I can support all the armories needed to play now? Then, you will blame me for not having any factories.

Talk about the Gift of the Magi catch 22!!! I will tear down my factories so I can build more houses so I can upgrade armories so I can get the orcs ne


Just once, I wish someone around here who worked for Inno tried to play this game in real time. It is exhausting trying to explain all the time how these roadblocks affect us.

The bottom line was put very succinctly by CrazyWizard:
I simply do not understand the game designers point in creating doors that slam shut in front of there customers. this aint a traffic jam, but a brick wall that takes ages to bring down.
 
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DeletedUser629

Guest
Just once, I wish someone around here who worked for Inno tried to play this game in real time. It is exhausting trying to explain all the time how these roadblocks affect us.

I work for Inno, as does the rest of the team. I've been playing this game since its launch back in January 2015.

It's a strategy game and sometimes you will have to demolish something to make room for things you need more. The game brings new features, and we simply have to adapt to the new situation. Fighting is the only way to conquer provinces until you can breed Orcs.

Runes are hard to get if you're not willing to buy them. That's everyone's personal choice to make.

As i have said before, players who are having problems with fighting can ask for help on the forum.
 

DeletedUser629

Guest
this evening, I tried to fight an encounter in an elixir province @ ring 11
there were 2 necros, 1 golem II and the rest was a mix of treants and treants II, for a total of 8 ennemy squads;
I fought valiantly, but I lost...
I cannot win this encounter through fighting, which means I cannot complete this province;

Which units did you bring to battle?
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
8 sets of enemies. 6 thieves. 2 bandits. All of them 739 each.

Row 1: ttbt
Row 2: tttb

or:

2 thieves 2235 each.

I tried using granite golems. Every one is dead.

or
131 cannoneer 784 bandit and 4 troops of knights 196 each.

I just realized I can delete the mercenary camp! That thing is dead space now. That helps!

But nothing is different. The requirement for orcs needs to be tied to where you are in the tech tree, not the world map.
 
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DeletedUser629

Guest
8 sets of enemies. 6 thieves. 2 bandits. All of them 739 each.

Row 1: ttbt
Row 2: tttb

or:

2 thieves 2235 each.

I tried using granite golems. Every one is dead.

or
131 cannoneer 784 bandit and 4 troops of knights 196 each.

I just realized I can delete the mercenary camp! That thing is dead space now. That helps!

Granite golems do not have a bonus vs light melee. Treants will die easily at the hands of the bandits. What i would do vs 6 squads of thieves and 2 squads of bandits, is use 5 squads of sorceress III. You'd be surprised how many thieves they can kill with that 70% bonus vs light melee. Focus on the thieves first, the bandits will hardly do any damage cause sorceress III has a 90% defense bonus vs short ranged. 5 squads out of the 6 thieves can be cursed by your 5 squads of sorceress III, making sure their damage is reduced by 80%

2 squads of thieves? use 3 squads of treant II, and have them flanked by 2 squads of sorceress III. Because the treant has an 80% defense bonus vs light melee, the curse of the sorceress will make sure the treants become immune.

The last 1 i'd bring 2 squads of granite golems and 3 squads of sorceress III. have 1 sorceress focus on the cannoneers, the other one on the bandits. The curse will reduce the cannoneers damage, and cursing the bandits means they can't do any damage anymore. The golems and 1 sorceress will focus on the knights. Both have a huge bonus vs heavy melee. When the cannoneers are dead, have the other sorceress focus on the knights as well.
 

DeletedUser283

Guest
Which units did you bring to battle?
3 squads of golems and 2 squads of sorceresses
lost by a short margin (2 badly wounded squads of necros remaining); those sets of 8 enemy squads are very hard to defeat, because they hurt our troops multiple times while we are limited to 5 squads, which is totally stupid by the way;
I can understand this limit in the tournaments were enemy strength is never much higher than ours, but it becomes ridiculous in provinces on the map were enemy squads are not only almost twice as powerful as ours but can come in greater amounts;

in any case, I could not win this encounter, and up till now everytime it happened I have negociated to clear it :
I have to wait for almost 3 days until troops are properly restored due to these losses and those suffered during last week tournament;
I will not try this fight again, I have better things to do.

I am not complaining about not winning the fight, I know that it may happen

I am complaining because I cannot negociate the encounter instead because the game is asking for orcs that I cannot provide, and I think whoever thought of arranging things this way is a bonehead.
 
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DeletedUser651

Guest
I have to wait for almost 3 days until troops are properly restored due to these losses and those suffered during last week tournament;
I will not try this fight again, I have better things to do.

I am not complaining about not winning the fight, I know that it may happen

I am complaining because I cannot negociate the encounter instead because the game is asking for orcs that I cannot provide, and I think whoever thought of arranging things this way is a bonehead.

I have to say I couldn't have said it better. I did try your combinations Goryn, and while I was able to win some of those battles, I suffered losses that equates to 20 hours of training in one battle. That isn't fun, and it means I won't be able to participate in the tournaments, or I just have to wait days to train troops to clear a sector.

I don't find this fun. I hate orcs.
 
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DeletedUser1548

Guest
We are drifting to off-topic... So I would like to remind I still did not get my answer to my "WHY" question. ;)

These fights you mentioned could be won and @Goryn did gave you good advices here but it only proves my previous point.
Fights in a city builder is not what people want and making it more and more important is a mistake... And what? We got the option to fight milion times in tournaments. If I would fight it instead of auto-fighting I would go mad in no time. ;)
Now, again, we need to fight in provinces because we have no Orcs yet.

I remember when I started fighting. It was really difficult for me back then. Now I think the mechanism is quite simple but at first sight I had problems with it. Maybe it's because units bonuses are crucial very early and mistake costs you a day of training... idk.
I will said it thrice.. I am a fighter but to be honest I would like to stop fighting and focus on producing goods and stare at my imaginary aquarium (thank you @Katwijk , you made my day).

There are fights you cannot win, no matter how good are you.
Deadly combination is 8 squad of: Necromancers (at least 2) + Golems + Treants.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
We will, of course, monitor this situation. If ring 10 proves to be too soon to have Orcs, and many players who haven't reached chapter VIII won't be able to negotiate anymore, chances are, it will be changed. Negotiating can be made harder, but should not become impossible.

Sounds like my boss,
In one case I was sitting outside on a friday after a work increase and noticed they were barely able to handle the inflow of goods.
When I talked to my boss he said that in the weekend they would haul in 50% more goods and at monday they were gonna do 50% more work. (with the same people)

I told him if you are barely hanging in there how can you do 50% more on monday, should you not cancel that move and reconsider your plans first?
No he told me they had calculated it and they are confident they could do it. (ostrich behavior).
Off course on monday the inflow increased with 50% and they entire company came to a halt. and due to ignorance (gave them plenty of solutions) and executive decisions it took them 8!!! weeks to recover from this fiasco.

Worst part they claimed they never saw it comming, for all sakes even a blind horse could have seen this one. and I warned them upfront.
This is a 8+ billion euro company I am talking about.

they ones paying the most for games like this are the active players, the one who log in once a week arent the ones getting in trouble here but neither are they paying customers, but are the active ones who are most likely to buy expansions, workers and diamond goods just because they enjoy the game,
Putting up literally roadbloks for them aint a smart idea. even a blind horse could see this one comming as well, just as we could forsee the trouble that took my employers 8 weeks to recover from.

I also gave you an alternate solution, at least for the chest who were introduced according to jirro to ensure fair catering costs at the tournaments.
Orcs could become mandatory somewhere halfway the orc research tree at a place where you are already producing them for a short while, but before a point where someone would ignore the rest of the tree to avoid it. (for now)

an alternate solution could be found in at least making those orcs tradable for the other "goods" so not a single player should be put into a position where they is no solution to there problem for a long while and they have a workaround to get an alternative aource of orcs. every lost customer due to this action is lost money.

and since you are payed by Inno so it's indirectly your money/income I would use more caution and overthink it once again before using the we shall see approach and we fix it after we lost to many customers
How many customers do you need to loose before the developers are forced to put down there pride and use reason instead.

Again for me I don't care, I dont have this problem anyway and as long as inno doesnt pull the plug on this game I am fine.
 
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DeletedUser651

Guest
an alternate solution could be found in at least making those orcs tradable for the other "goods" so not a single player should be put into a position where they is no solution to there problem for a long while. every lost customer due to this action is lost money.

CrazyWizard has made excellent points. In case you think any of what he said isn't incredibly important, I have citations for you to back up every one of his concepts.

It is 6-7 times more expensive to acquire a new customer than it is to keep a current one.

ch1-6.png
Source: White House Office of Consumer Affairs

And once you lose a customer, you lose them for good.

91% of unhappy customers will not willingly do business with you again.Source: Lee Resources

Top two reasons for customer loss:

1. Customers feel poorly treated

2. Failure to solve a problem in a timely manner

Source: Customer Experience Impact Report by Harris Interactive/RightNow,

We all warn you about many things that make customers unhappy and we watch them leave this game. Will this chapter be another instance of that? We TELL you the problems with the game and we get ignored and players leave because we are ignored.

I am curious about something though, seriously. We get so much flack and push back when we explain things are wrong. Why? Are you more interested in being right and defending the game than listening to great suggestions. When we say that it is a mistake to force the orc requirement on players before they have researched it, we aren't wrong. When we say we are bored because of a new feature, why argue? When we say we don't like to be forced to try to fight a province, there is nothing to argue about. We don't want to be forced to do those things. It honestly doesn't matter why. We don't like it. End of story.

It is SO disrespectful to attack anyone for letting you know how they think about the game. And basically all these threads are any more is mods trying to convince the players that we don't think how we think. You offer us a game, we tell you what is fun about it and what isn't, and instead of trying to fix the part that isn't fun, you argue with us about it. How insane! Why even ask?

You've had a lot of great feedback on this topic. Either fix it or don't.
 

DeletedUser629

Guest
Sounds like my boss,
In one case I was sitting outside on a friday after a work increase and noticed they were barely able to handle the inflow of goods.
When I talked to my boss he said that in the weekend they would haul in 50% more goods and at monday they were gonna do 50% more work. (with the same people)

I told him if you are barely hanging in there how can you do 50% more on monday, should you not cancel that move and reconsider your plans first?
No he told me they had calculated it and they are confident they could do it. (ostrich behavior).
Off course on monday the inflow increased with 50% and they entire company came to a halt. and due to ignorance (gave them plenty of solutions) and executive decisions it took them 8!!! weeks to recover from this fiasco.

Worst part they claimed they never saw it comming, for all sakes even a blind horse could have seen this one. and I warned them upfront.
This is a 8+ billion euro company I am talking about.

they ones paying the most for games like this are the active players, the one who log in once a week arent the ones getting in trouble here but neither are they paying customers, but are the active ones who are most likely to buy expansions, workers and diamond goods just because they enjoy the game,
Putting up literally roadbloks for them aint a smart idea. even a blind horse could see this one comming as well, just as we could forsee the trouble that took my employers 8 weeks to recover from.

I also gave you an alternate solution, at least for the chest who were introduced according to jirro to ensure fair catering costs at the tournaments.
Orcs could become mandatory somewhere halfway the orc research tree at a place where you are already producing them for a short while, but before a point where someone would ignore the rest of the tree to avoid it. (for now)

an alternate solution could be found in at least making those orcs tradable for the other "goods" so not a single player should be put into a position where they is no solution to there problem for a long while and they have a workaround to get an alternative aource of orcs. every lost customer due to this action is lost money.

and since you are payed by Inno so it's indirectly your money/income I would use more caution and overthink it once again before using the we shall see approach and we fix it after we lost to many customers
How many customers do you need to loose before the developers are forced to put down there pride and use reason instead.

Again for me I don't care, I dont have this problem anyway and as long as inno doesnt pull the plug on this game I am fine.


I'm sure your boss was told to go look for another job then ;)

This has been calculated upfront, just as the chest were calculated. Sure, some players didn't have enough provinces to open the chest, but the vast majority did.

The active players who spend diamonds will most likely do this again when the guest races are released to the live servers. You play on NL as well and you know how the top players there play the game. Those who are at the end of the fairies will only have to research the advanced scouts and portal to be able to research the orcs breeding ground. The only thing we need to look at, is whether we have many players who have reached ring 11 while still being in the fairies chapter, or even the dwarves chapter. Again, the developer team has calculated this. Most players who have reached this so called ''wall'' are the early adopters, the ones who have been playing this game when there weren't any guest races, or other features, so the only thing they could do was conquer provinces. New players have a lot more to do, and they can certainly cruise through the research tree with all the kp's they can get now. Something we didn't have when we started playing this game.

As this is Beta, we will of course use this feedback and discuss whether or not something should change.
 

DeletedUser629

Guest
CrazyWizard has made excellent points. In case you think any of what he said isn't incredibly important, I have citations for you to back up every one of his concepts.

It is 6-7 times more expensive to acquire a new customer than it is to keep a current one.

ch1-6.png
Source: White House Office of Consumer Affairs

And once you lose a customer, you lose them for good.

91% of unhappy customers will not willingly do business with you again.Source: Lee Resources

Top two reasons for customer loss:

1. Customers feel poorly treated

2. Failure to solve a problem in a timely manner

Source: Customer Experience Impact Report by Harris Interactive/RightNow,

We all warn you about many things that make customers unhappy and we watch them leave this game. Will this chapter be another instance of that? We TELL you the problems with the game and we get ignored and players leave because we are ignored.

I am curious about something though, seriously. We get so much flack and push back when we explain things are wrong. Why? Are you more interested in being right and defending the game than listening to great suggestions. When we say that it is a mistake to force the orc requirement on players before they have researched it, we aren't wrong. When we say we are bored because of a new feature, why argue? When we say we don't like to be forced to try to fight a province, there is nothing to argue about. We don't want to be forced to do those things. It honestly doesn't matter why. We don't like it. End of story.

It is SO disrespectful to attack anyone for letting you know how they think about the game. And basically all these threads are any more is mods trying to convince the players that we don't think how we think. You offer us a game, we tell you what is fun about it and what isn't, and instead of trying to fix the part that isn't fun, you argue with us about it. How insane! Why even ask?

You've had a lot of great feedback on this topic. Either fix it or don't.

There is always the risk to lose customers, because some customers will never be happy no matter what you do.

The majority of customers are still very satisfied, and the game is doing well.

We always try to solve problems as quickly as possible, but sometimes it takes more time to solve a problem because of the complexity of the issue.

We have always listened to players suggestions, and will continue to do so. However, the Inno Elvenar team knows what it wants, and has many experienced people working on the game, so sometimes this means suggestions are put aside because they know what they want will work. Remember that time when we removed the decline button on the quests? Players were very unhappy when we did that, we saw the mistake, and we changed it back to the way it was. Many player ideas have been implemented because we thought it would really make the game better.

The forum is meant to have discussions, this also goes for threads where we ask players about new features. By telling us we can't argue with you, and instead, should change all the things that aren't fun according to you, you are placing yourself in a higher position than the tens of thousands of other players who are enjoying this game, including the things you're not having fun with. Personally, i've dealt with thousands of players in the past 18 months, and though some weren't happy, the vast majority was, and still is.
 

Lissona

Well-Known Member
One question: a player, who has reached the Chapter 5 with the Superior Gem/Dust/Elixier Upgrade (which makes the manufactories most efficient per square, if nothing has changed meanwehile), should be allowed to stop researching the tech tree and should be able to reach all available expansions just by scouting/catering?

Just once, I wish someone around here who worked for Inno tried to play this game in real time. It is exhausting trying to explain all the time how these roadblocks affect us.

Well, I wonder how I already could build 2x barracks 21 and 20 mushroom farms with all these roadblocks... I must be cheating...

BTW: and please stop posting the HelpScout statistics unless you wrote all the sources behind it completely (I didn't, but as you cite them for your needs, you should be sure they fit here).
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
You suggest to keep expanding you should stop research? and ignore 3 more chapters because it might be easier to keep scouting your provinces since you dont need orcs?

A unique way to play, that I am sure that won't pay off in the long run, you ignore a mere 14 research tree expansions improved amount of workers and everything else.

if you have build all that stuff then you are at least not the pearson I am referring to, if you are already at the end of the fairy chapter then there is no issue whatsoever. since within a few days of tournament and free KP and maybe some bought you have already unlocked all you need. if your scouting time is already 3-4 days. those KP can be easily ignored.

I fear more for the player who is halfway the dwarf chapter and reaches this treshhold.
 

DeletedUser1548

Guest
@Goryn, I see you are very active here so maybe you can explain "why" it was set that way? If it does not matter for most players than why do it that way? Stopping better players from progress? I don't understand it even more.
@Lord Jirre explained chests. Will you provide the explanation for Orcs? Or only @Muf-Muf is able to do that? Or no one can...?

Not getting this answer makes me curious even more. :)
 

DeletedUser629

Guest
6 squads of bandits, 2 squads of thieves. And as a human, it's supposed to be harder for me to win fights compared to the Elves. At least, that's what some people keep saying ^^

Sure, you'll lose troops, but no fight is impossible to win.
297e906c63e04776bfa4ad0033c6c11f.png


a8cd4f8fb4d14895a047d1b5c4cd0b0a.png

This is ring 13 by the way
 

Lissona

Well-Known Member
You suggest to keep expanding you should stop research? and ignore 3 more chapters because it might be easier to keep scouting your provinces since you dont need orcs?
I do not suggest anything. But if people say orcs should not be an obstacle für catering provinces - wouldn't it be possible for people in the lower chapters to scout and cater all provinces? Would that be okay/fair? But wouldn't be at some time the scouting costs too high that they can't afford it anymore (because they don't fit in the main hall)? What is the difference between orcs, which you have to research in the higher chapters and a mainhall, which you have to research in the higher chapters, where you can store enough coins für scouting?
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
wouldn't it be possible for people in the lower chapters to scout and cater all provinces?

No. They get too expensive for one. At some point the main hall doesn't hold enough coins. For another thing, they take simply forever. At more than 3 days a piece. The difference with the Orcs is that they could be a barrier to you for several chapters.

Remember that time when we removed the decline button on the quests? Players were very unhappy when we did that, we saw the mistake, and we changed it back to the way it was. Many player ideas have been implemented because we thought it would really make the game better.

I do. We all told you ahead of time you would kill the game. You ignored us. The game stopped cold for a week. That's when the game lost tons of players. Then there was a mad scramble to put it back the way it was. But by then, many people had quit. You brought back the quests but you kept tweaking the quests a little after that and you lost tons more players. It was so bad, I was in an active thriving fellowship on Winyandor and one day when the quests changed I got bored with it and left. I went back to look there recently since my city will never be purged, and the entire fellowship is still together and not one person plays. That is 25 people who all quit the game together. Sure, that's a small sample, but it is telling you something. It is a full fellowship ghost town and has been like that for at least 6 months. We should rename it Pompeii.

And I didn't say you HAD to change all the things we think aren't fun. I said you shouldn't argue with players about it. Either it is fun for whoever says it is, or it isn't fun for whoever says it isn't. There is nothing to argue about. They are telling you how they feel. Their feelings are never wrong. That is how they feel. End of story. For them, something isn't fun.

That means you are trying to sell a game to players that has parts that some players have said are not fun. You can't argue your way into it being fun for them. We tell you WILL lose players. This is too much of a brick wall too early. Do what you want with that information. I don't make money at Inno. Obviously, you won't lose all players, but you will lose some. And the players you will lose will be players who have been here a long time. Some will stay...but you will lose long time players: Players that are the most expensive for a company to lose.

I can't see any player saying...oh thank heavens the orcs are needed to negotiate things now! That makes it so much more fun for me! I really hated being able to get expansions. But if you think on balance a lot more players will see this change as being great and adding more fun, I guess that is Inno's dice to roll.

Oh, and by the way, some changes are so tiny, such minute changes, it doesn't make any sense not to change them. This is a global game yet you ignore various cultures. Americans have told you that the whole selling orcs concept makes them uncomfortable. They see it as slavery. We have a different history and a different sensitivity to things than others do right now. Many of us come from families that were owned as slaves. Our cities are being shot up right now and police murdered because of the past we have with slavery. Citizens are being murdered by police because of the past history we have with slavery. Our streets are filled with protesters and tensions are higher than in even the 1960s. The fix is a text fix. Call it something else. Orc clubs, or whatever. And even that simple suggestion is fought.

Let me tell you a story every first year marketing student learns: In America some brilliant engineers thought they had a great name for a car. It was the Chevy Nova. No one bothered to test the idea with anyone outside the country even though the car would be sold worldwide. No, the brilliant guys at the top had their name and they had tested it with Americans, and Americans liked the name so that is the name they went with!! Funny thing happened. The car didn't sell in Mexico. No one knew why. They tweaked it here and tweaked it there and changed colors and changed engines and changed how loud the engine was. They were baffled. The car sold so well in America. Until one day someone finally listened. You see the word Va in spanish means go. They had just named a car the No Go.
 
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