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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

galrond

Well-Known Member
I agree. This is definitely "a big step in the right direction" for the cities that never grow. It is surely a big step in the right direction for the cities that never see sentient goods. It's certainly a big step in the right direction for the cities that never experience an entire chapter with only one expansion to accommodate new, gigantic, boosted sentient goods buildings, a massive Main Hall upgrade, with a huge barracks and an entire settlement to deal with. It's a big step in the right direction ... for an event city.

For the ones that play the game as it's written ... it is the biggest step backward ever.
This is the biggest step backwards ever for players, who rely on 1-2 fully grown fire phoenixes (and maybe some brown bears) to steamroll over the provinces, gathering huge amounts of KP. Yes, they can´t do that anymore.
But to imply, that they are the only ones "who play the game as it´s written", that´s not fair :mad:

The players, who do great in the tournaments, are NOT the only ones, who have to deal with "an entire chapter with only one expansion to accommodate new, gigantic, boosted sentient goods buildings, a massive Main Hall upgrade, with a huge barracks and an entire settlement".

Maillie will maybe say: "that´s not what I said", but I fail to see how "For the ones that play the game as it's written ... it is the biggest step backward ever." can be understood in any other way. Actually I don´t think the distinction between "the smart and hardworking players, who do great in tournaments", and "the casual players, who are to lazy to play the game as it´s meant to be played" could be more grafic :rolleyes:

And yes I know, that I make a likewise sharp destinction between ppl with fire phoenixes, and ppl without. But I think it´s nearly impossible to do 80 provinces week after week without the use of phoenix (and bears).
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
And yes I know, that I make a likewise sharp destinction between ppl with fire phoenixes, and ppl without. But I think it´s nearly impossible to do 80 provinces week after week without the use of phoenix (and bears).
You're right about that. Before these things appeared the same people who were averaging 4-5,000 suddenly skyrocketed to 10-15,000 (or beyond). I was one of them and I actually think the brown bears were more key than the fire phoenixes. The final piece of the puzzle you missed, though, was the Spire of Eternity. These three things together all made it happen.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Those who do 80 provinces week after week in old mechanic would still be able to do much more than casual players in new one. They just won't have a reason to do that, since they already have all useful AWs maxed and nothing to improve in their cities...
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
About the scaling of costs (not about the changes made on catering and fighting) :

I think this outrage you're referring to is mostly caused by assumptions about the difficulty formula that are not correct, which is logical since we're not able to share the exact formula.
Rethinking of it, I think it might actually be our assumptions about how Inno wants to balance the game that are not correct, which would be logical since they're possibly lying (one more time) about it.
  • Either they want tournaments to be available for everyone no matter of their progress. Then Tournament performances mainly depends of what we choose to put in our city rather than in our progress. This means, a city that doesn't focus in Tournaments exclusively will have a harder time in Tournaments than a city that does, even if the first one is higher advanced.
  • Or they want tournaments to reward progress, and thus make so that an advanced city can do much more tournaments than a beginner/mid-game city.
We assumed the latter as it's what they said in the announcement : "while the progression in the Tournaments becomes more costly as your city grows over time, the increase is nowhere near the amount of resources the progressed city will be able to produce extra thanks to the progress made.", but let's assume the former. After all, they also said :
Let's say player A produces 2000 crystals a day and needs to pay 200 for catering 1 province, player B who produces 20.000 crystals a day should need to pay 2000 for that province, to make it relatively just as challenging. Once again, that's of course oversimplifying it, but that's the basic of this idea.
When they said it, I pointed out that
This is a contradiction... if you're making cost proportional to production, then progression gives you as much benefit as negative effects, not more.
In other words, one of the quotes was wrong, and we assumed the wrong one was this sentence quoted above in the middle of a long post :
I believe you used simple numbers for the sake of simplicity, but I'd like to confim:
Player B should pay ~1800 crystals, not 2,000, right? Because you still want to reward progress and "Progression should always give you more benefit than the negative impact it has on difficulty "
The goal is not to make it "relatively just as challenging", is it?
But I think they really meant Player B should pay 2000, and they actually lied in the announcement. Else, why would they have ever made tournament costs depending on the city ? Even before the changes, they made Tournament costs increasing with chapter progress by linking them with squad size, to ensure that players from all chapters roughly have the same difficulty to get the resources needed for the tournament. But, squad size didn't estimate overall city progress very well, as two cities with the same progress could have very different tournament costs depending on optional squad size upgrades they took, and it didn't take into account important parts of progress which are AWs and expansions from map scouting (which are even the only thing that make yor city progress past end-game). So they improved the formula, and the new formula actually works well, giving numbers close to squad size for most of cities and better estimating power of very powerful cities like @CrazyWizard's. And taking into account wonders that doesn't help with tournament is fine too : you choose which wonders you level, if you focus on ranking points you could level Thrones that will on the other side make your tournaments harder than some who focused on Tournaments and leveled Monastery instead, even if you have more overall AW levels :
This I already explained :
About how the formula should be reworked :
We can approximate the total production of a city by B×Q×E where B = 1+production boost, E = number of expansions, and Q = base production per square. Q is depending on chapter progress (unlocking upgrades) and AW levels (allowing cheaper upgrades, better production,...). And the AW power acts mostly as a multiplicator (as most of AW powers are calculated as a % of something which increases as you advance.) So the multiplication of factors is not what's wrong with this formula.
The first issue is that Q doesn't grow exponentially with chapter. Actually it looks closer to linear. (Else the B×Q×E would have grown much faster than the former squad size roughly proprtional to Chapter^2.)
Thus a (1+Boost)×f(Techs)×(1+x×AW levels)×Expansions sounds right to estimate production of a city if AW are well balanced (although the f(Techs) shouldn't be exponential, or productions should be rebalanced). And if AW are not well balanced, the problem doesn't come from the formula. And about "end-chain" AWs that give e.g. KP or ranking points and doesn't help tournaments, they give the rewards you'd lose due to tournament costs increased, so it sounds right to put them into the tournament cost formula considering INNO's goals. (Although the ×Expansions doesn't work well with fighting, as you can't use a lot of your city space to produce troops.)
So, if they lied about their intentions and actually don't want progress to help much in Spire/Tournaments, then the scaling of Spire/Tournament costs is well-balanced. Else they'd better make costs not depending on city at all.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
(Not following the post above)
I think there are currently 3 main concerns/complaints about tournament changes (which are also relevant for Spire as now they are very similar) :
  1. The scaling of costs/squad size : see my post above about this. Summary : the formula is right if they don't want progress to influence a lot in Tournaments. But in this case, say "we think the new Tournament costs will better fit with City progress" (i.e. "the increase [in Spire/Tournament costs] is SIMILAR tp the amount of resources the progressed city will be able to produce extra thanks to the progress made") instead of the "the increase [in Spire/Tournament costs] is nowhere near the amount of resources the progressed city will be able to produce extra thanks to the progress made" lie, and anyway stop the "numbers lie" lie because numbers never lie.
  2. The changes made in catering (both the new catering cost balance that asks for much more coins, supplies, mana and orcs than before and the increased randomization of the types of goods asked for each encounter (no more asking for all types in all encounters). They did a step back about the increase of orcs/mana/coins/supplies needed, but still didn't give any official motivation to these changes.
  3. The too steep difficulty increase in Tournaments : Enemy squad size being 1.6× ours (old 6* difficulty) is already very hard and very few people will be able to go so far, yet we face it way too soon. A small increase in difficulty per province is fine to avoid the 1-2 players able to do these (old 6*) fights with low losses being able to do nearly infinite tournaments, but it should remain nowhere near as the increase in difficulty per star level are province numbers vary within a much wider range than 1-6. On the other side, the first encounters don't need to be so easy. If anyone can easily do 1600 and even the top Tournament players can't go above 2500, improving our city for Tournaments will really not be worth, and Tournaments will mostly be about fitting 6 rounds with 16 hours intervals in a 4-day schedule. I think @edeba's suggestion would be better balanced.
 
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galrond

Well-Known Member
Those who do 80 provinces week after week in old mechanic would still be able to do much more than casual players in new one. They just won't have a reason to do that, since they already have all useful AWs maxed and nothing to improve in their cities...
Yes ofc they will, and so should they :cool:
I´ve never bought in on the notion "now it´ll be impossible for end-game players to compete in the tournaments".
The difference will become much smaller though.

I don´t think, that the "high scorers" "won´t have a reason" to do well in tournament. The competiton to score most will still be there. The numerical values will just be lower. But maybe ppl won´t "go for it" quite so often.

I also find it hard to belive, that they´ll have no use for KP. Many of the previous posts complain about projected shortage of KP ;)
Ofc the question, "Does the benefit of doing this province outweight the costs?", becomes more relevant.
 

Maillie

Well-Known Member
This is the biggest step backwards ever for players, who rely on 1-2 fully grown fire phoenixes (and maybe some brown bears) to steamroll over the provinces, gathering huge amounts of KP. Yes, they can´t do that anymore.
But to imply, that they are the only ones "who play the game as it´s written", that´s not fair :mad:
Playing the game as written had nothing whatsoever to do with having multiple brown bears or more than one phoenix, you misunderstood. I have multiples of nothing. Playing the game as written means you finish a chapter and go on to the next chapter, then work your way through that chapter, constantly learning and growing your city. Not everyone does that, and it's ok that they don't. Some get to a specific chapter and stop, making it an event city with no intentions of ever moving beyond there. They never experience sentient goods. They have no clue about the different settlements. They are able to do well in the tournaments, since they've never even seen the AW's that we have needed to build to lessen decay, etc.

So how is it fair that these event cities can do quite well, while the ones that go through the chapters to the end, (as the game is written) building AW's, adding expansions, etc., can't do nearly as well? The ones that are at the end of the chapters are not all steamrolling over the provinces, that is quite time consuming and I would really not have time to do it. I just want a fair chance to earn the scores and the kp that the event cities earn. Particularly considering that my techs in the research tree cost over 200 kp each. How long do I really want to be stuck in the tech tree?

And I never implied that having multiples of phoenixes and bears are the only ones who play the game as written. I applaud the ones that can afford to do that, they keep our game alive, but anyone that grows and experiences the game in all of its varieties of chapters and difficulties are my true heroes. Now they're being punished for doing so.
 

spennyit

Well-Known Member
I also find it hard to belive, that they´ll have no use for KP. Many of the previous posts complain about projected shortage of KP ;)
Ofc the question, "Does the benefit of doing this province outweight the costs?", becomes more relevant.

KPs are used in researches and AWs growing.
For people like me that get about 200 KPs a week in tournament, it is already difficult to do both things (as last chapter demonstrated) and reducing this ability will further aggravate this shortage. My AWs are way to low to be really beneficial so they would need to be grown, but this is almost impossible (I hope to get about 10 levels (in total, NOT per AW!!!) in the current 6 months period for chapter 16).
For they who have already level 30 AWs, there is no more the need to grow them further since they are just negatively affecting the tournament results, but I would add more: they even don't need anymore to do tournaments for KPs unless they want to continue to do races in a fast way (but is there any motivation to do the races since they give no more benefits toward the tournaments and/or the tournaments are no more needed to be done?).
Summing up: just they who don't get blueprints now have an interest in doing tournaments since they will get the blueprint easier, but all other ... they can stop playing the game at all :)

Of course I have intentionally exagerated the situation just to show that nerfing too much the tournaments will not be a positive change. Reducing the top openers from 80 to 60 (maybe) may have a positive effect (but top people should say if this is the case), but increasing the costs for the first 30 provinces doesn't seem a good nerf. We strongly need these KPs :) Of course, if they foresee new ways to give us these KPs (reducing researches KP cost and/or new functionalities) they could have just told us how and we would have saved 60+ pages of complaints :)

Anyway:
- there is no reason to put real money in the formula (i.e. AWs levels and premium expansions)
- there is no reason to increase the costs for the first 30 provinces
- there is no reason to make so steep the costs for they who want to compete in tournaments (they can just change the rewards for provinces 61 on as the new 9 chests have already really poor rewards)
- they should not take away too much interest from tournaments that is one of the major aspects of this game

That said let's see how the test in EN server will be "judged": for sure the people there has a greater interest in the game since, probably, they have put more real money and time in the game than beta people (just guessing) ;-)
 

ErestorX

Well-Known Member
I also find it hard to belive, that they´ll have no use for KP. Many of the previous posts complain about projected shortage of KP

Thats no contradiction. There are some people who feel they might have a hard time getting enough KP to play a new chapter with KP requirements similar to or even higher than those in Chapter 16.

And there are other people who already have all the wonderlevels that will help more than harm in the future. For people in this group the only reason to put KP into their wonders will be the ranking points. The success in tournaments will suffer if they continue filling wonders. Typically players in this group have no problem at all with the KP requirements of research. And most of the time they aren't researching anyway.
 

Maillie

Well-Known Member
No matter what size players are, they are always sure that the players lower or higher than them have it way easier. The game isn't really made that way. Elvenar is made to be challenging at any level.

In tournaments a lot is said about the higher level players earning a lot of kp. Perhaps the smaller players don't realize this, but in Chapter 16 each level of an upgrade gets its own tech. I have to research level 36 of the Main Hall, then later I have to research level 37 of the Main Hall. Those two techs combined cost around 420 kp, just to upgrade the Main Hall. Upgrades to manufactories are the same, more than one tech, same with houses or workshops.

In the second round of the tournament you can earn 5 kp for each province from Page 2 on. There are 9 provinces on each page. There were 4 fights in each province, so it was a total of 36 provinces to fight (or cater) to earn 45 kp. Let's keep in mind that we need over 400 kp to fully upgrade our Main Hall. We built AW's to help us get troops, have better health, etc., so that we could do the tournaments, and it was time consuming to do.

Yes, we had it easier with our AW's. Yes, we could do a lot of provinces. We did them because we needed them, not because we liked the sound of clicking a mouse. Now the players that need 80 kp to fully upgrade their Main Hall are going to be able to earn more kp than the ones that need over 400 for the same thing.

Why does that make sense?
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
On the other side, the first encounters don't need to be so easy. If anyone can easily do 1600 and even the top Tournament players can't go above 2500
I agree that this window is way too small. It's really strange, with my small city, how 6 rounds of 10 provinces can be so painfully easy, but then 13 provinces is virtually impossible.

However, for me you missed the most important problem from your list and that's still the affect of certain AWs on the tournament formula. They shouldn't put us in the position of wanting to delete Wonders. I think this contradicts everything they told us about AWs in the first place and is sickening for the people who invested in them... Everything else I can hope for improvement tweaks or learn to live with it.
 

spennyit

Well-Known Member
@Maillie, I read also your comments in the EN forum and it seems we play almost the same way and have almost the same problems :)

Luckily I am in the "vacation period" (chapter 16 finished) and can organize the village before next race comes. I hope you can do the same and enjoy it :)

I look forward to reading your comments on the new tournament hitting EN server this week so to be prepared when it comes to me in a month ;-)
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
The increase from chapter 15 to 16 in the spire costs were astronomical. I wonder how well balanced what they are doing at the high end when lower chapters give several upgrades with a technology and the high end it is one level per tech. I also put down 3 premium expansions. For sure going from chapter 15 to 16 is considerably more difficult relative to resources and I bet this double counting on the technology to increase difficulty is not sustainable.

Chapter 16 each level of an upgrade gets its own tech. I have to research level 36 of the Main Hall, then later I have to research level 37 of the Main Hall.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Just looking at where I am and the techs coming up....

A grave, a fountain and a turtle - harm
Ranger - don't use, harm
Forest stream - harm
Squad size upgrade - tiny increase in military from AW
The habitat and playground - harm
Mercenary camp improvements - don't use, harm
Forest fabrications - harm
greenery street - harm
squad size upgrade - tiny increase in military from AW
Marble grading site - harm
Planks grading site -harm
Drone rider promotion - harm
AW of the woodelves - flying academy very helpful, eventually...
Advanced scouts - a small benefit
5 tech for sorcerers guest race - all harm
A market, chess pieces and a seal - harm
Optional city expansion - ?
Optional SS upgrade - ?
A library and a broomstick - harm

Finally residence, workshop and armory upgrades.

That's 22-24 technology before any upgrades that actually help with the spire or tournament, but how much harder does it get doing 24 tech without any meaningful improvements? Well, the fly academy once leveled would be very helpful, 13 tech to it...
 

LOKINHO

Well-Known Member
I can think of a "SOLUTION" to try to counteract this ... and that at least the players who love to battle, are not so upset:
I keep insisting on lowering a lot, or eliminating the level of wonders from the equation ... but hey, I'm going to give the solution that I think is appropriate ...
And if, in the tournaments, as a reward for reaching the chest 5,10,15,20, you add a 2x2 building, which increases the attack of all troops by 25-50% for 5 days?
In this way, those who love battle will be able to continue fighting every week, and will get one, two or three buildings of this type, which would benefit our armies, solve the problem of the difficulty to be able to go further, and also solve the problem of fighting against 5 different or mixed troops, since ours could always be stronger ... it is A GREAT REMEDY, and I do not see it at all disproportionate, in fact this could make the brotherhoods or TOP players, fight for get more buildings of this type !! Or what is the same, go for the chests 5,10, 15 ... (I leave the 20th because it seems very difficult hahaha)
What do you say to me?
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Training speed on it is 98 compared to 320 on the barracks. It has 4 upgrades with that tech, the first of which brings it to 113. If they all do about the same I suspect it would be at 158-160. If the flying academy was fully leveled, 40% would bring it to about 220-225. I know the units from here are great in Chapter 16, but I do not know how good they are in woodelves.

Judging by Karvest's message, I think they aren't that strong yet, so lower production...

Maybe you should reevaluate the MC ;-)
She need to go through 6 chapters before reevaluating would make sense...
 

FieryArien

Well-Known Member
Training speed on it is 98 compared to 320 on the barracks. It has 4 upgrades with that tech, the first of which brings it to 113. If they all do about the same I suspect it would be at 158-160. If the flying academy was fully leveled, 40% would bring it to about 220-225. I know the units from here are great in Chapter 16, but I do not know how good they are in woodelves.

Judging by Karvest's message, I think they aren't that strong yet, so lower production...
It depends so much on your choice of human vs. elves.

In my elven city I built MC only when I was about to get 2 stars blossom mages. Never looked at the sorceress in the barracks again. Currently that city is in the first quarter of Halflings chapter and fully upgraded Barracks has the same speed as fully upgraded Mercenary Camp as long as I keep Needles and Flying Academy on the same levels. (Analogous claim about the speed is true for my last chapter human city. Barracks and MC get upgrades in same chapters, so their speed can be kept about the same.)
In my human city I didn't bother with MC until most of the units were on 3 stars. Now I'm in love with Frog Prince. ;-)
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
No sense of the bottom line...

My suggestion about being able to purchase a specialty item from each level of the spire, where it is cheapest from the top, and in the price range covered by potential diamond earnings from the spire gives a weekly place for diamonds to go to, and with the prices I suggested, 300 at the top, 400 at laboratory level and 500 at high hall, and it could even be added to the builder for 700 diamonds means that everyone can obtain them for free at least sometimes, but the players like me who really don't want to spend hours on manual battles can spend net 400-900 diamonds each week and auto-battle much closer to our heart's content. And seriously, most things for purchase at this point really are outrageously priced. Lots of people don't think too much about spending a few dollars, but current pricing for a lot of things people can't justify.

The difficulty curve is too steep.

Constantly it is hinted about not killing the finances from another area, but it seems to me that right now the spire is giving diamonds that are going to extra blueprint purchases for diamond players that have been using all of their blueprints all along. Non-diamond players have tons of blueprints, but they aren't the financial base of the game so their diamonds are going to land expansions.

I can think of a "SOLUTION" to try to counteract this ... and that at least the players who love to battle, are not so upset:
I keep insisting on lowering a lot, or eliminating the level of wonders from the equation ... but hey, I'm going to give the solution that I think is appropriate ...
And if, in the tournaments, as a reward for reaching the chest 5,10,15,20, you add a 2x2 building, which increases the attack of all troops by 25-50% for 5 days?
In this way, those who love battle will be able to continue fighting every week, and will get one, two or three buildings of this type, which would benefit our armies, solve the problem of the difficulty to be able to go further, and also solve the problem of fighting against 5 different or mixed troops, since ours could always be stronger ... it is A GREAT REMEDY, and I do not see it at all disproportionate, in fact this could make the brotherhoods or TOP players, fight for get more buildings of this type !! Or what is the same, go for the chests 5,10, 15 ... (I leave the 20th because it seems very difficult hahaha)
What do you say to me?
 
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