Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[Potvorisko]

Hi guys,

Thank you for sharing your experiences so far. We are still looking into all account details, but what might be good to already emphasize, is that in this new setup, it will generally be more rewarding to play the provinces on higher levels, instead of e.g. 20 provinces on level 1. As said, we're still investigating the details and first analytics, but just wanted to let you know this already. Please keep sharing your experiences and thoughts. Thank you!

I am sorry Marindor, but on this new tournamet is nothing more rewarding. We did provinces on higher levels before as well, but now we will make generaly less provinces and players who have time for tuournamet just maybe two times in week will be hardly discriminated. This will least to situation, where players will gain less KP, spells...from individual rewards and it will be harder for fellowships to make 10 (or less) chest in general.

The only ones, who will profit from this, will be those who play for dead accounts, for them, it will be easier to make 10 chests, because they will be making just first easy provinces.

Secondly, there will be raised even more pusching accounts, because KP will be again more precious.

For new players, it will be really rard to gain enought relic for their boosted manufactories.

And i could go on with bad impact on and on...

 

[DeletedUser2954]

That would be nice to know, what troop types won’t appear?

 

[Marindor]

Ma siete veramente convinti di tutto questo ????????
Sapete cosa succederà? Che molti abbandoneranno il gioco una volta x tutte
Ma chi e` il GENIO che ha studiato sta cosa ????
A chi sta bene questa castrazione significa che non ha mai ottenuto punti decenti nei tornei, CAPITO?
Se volete migliorare cambiate strada!
Ci va una marea di truppe x realizzare un 30% di quello che stiamo facendo adesso
Siete sicuri ????
Pensateci bene xke TUTTI i giocatori con cui sono confrontati in queste poche ore vogliono abbandonare il gioco.
Non vi capiamo !!!!!!!!!

Translation:


But are you really convinced of all this ????????
Do you know what will happen? That many will quit the game once for all
But who is the GENIUS who studied is what ????
Who is this castration good for means that he never got decent tournament points, CAPITO?
If you want to improve change your way!
It takes a lot of troops to realize 30% of what we are doing now
Are you sure ????
Think about it xke ALL players they are confronted with in these few hours want to quit the game.
We don't understand you !!!!!!!!!


@Mr.Vain Please remember: English only here on Beta. Thank you.

@Marindor
are we really going to do the whole week with this insane setting?

I have no idea if anything will be changed directly in this first test round. I do know that these first few hours are probably not enough to collect all data and analytics to make that decision yet. We're gathering your feedback, experiences and examples, as well as the actual game data, our teams are investigating the accounts, comparing things to Live setups etc etc, so please allow us some time to process all that while you guys are testing this and of course when we have any news to share, we will.

 

[DeletedUser3314]

Who's the *bleep* without a math degree who thinks that solving things must always be done by using an exponential formula, making it impossible hard for the advanced player ? Doesn't he know that instead of making things exponentially harder it would be better to use a logarithmic curve to balance the rewards. How do you expect us to get enough goods/supplies/troops when a fight cost more then we can make in a day ?

 

[DeletedUser2798]

Only for help you in translation

Xke = Why

 

[PaNonymeB]

OK, I have no idea how this fight resulted in a loss. So you had 5x 1* LR vs 4x 1* mage and HM (which LR are good against) and only 1 counterunit. You had 2x squad size vs your enemies. LR units have highest initiative in the game, so you'd poo-poo them first. LR is, well, ranged.

This loss makes no sense whatsoever. If in addition to all other things these kinds of fights will result in losses, than might as well stop playing tournaments completely, at least on autofight.

I think I know why it resulted in a loss... The enemy has in this fight units that are counting 2-6 squad size per unit. So with a squad size of 1 these enemies should be <1/2 units, which is rounded to 1. Therefore the enemy is playing with squad size of 2-6 instead oc 1. Before, squad sizes couldn't go below 6 to prevent this issue.

 

[Pauly7]

I liked @SoggyShorts description of the whole package in the US forum "Are they giving us what they perceive as healthy Brussel sprouts and tying it together with ice cream in an attempt to avoid an all-out revolt?"

Exactly! Nail. Head. Hit.

 

[DeletedUser2630]

I wanted to write a logical comment as to why it is wrong for it to rise so sharply. That a lot of people are not interested in making 6 stars but two are enough. But such a change as I see it completely took away my desire to play today's tournament on a live server. And I'll have to force myself.

If it will not be possible to get the same thing from the tournament as before (with the same or lower losses), it really makes no sense to play.

 

[DeletedUser3341]

I had bad results with starting city. i do not have screenshot, but the first province i lost (autofighting) a fight that in my experience i normally win easy. second province fight won but with more then half army lost. i do not think that this is encouraging for new players. On live i am pretty experienced fighter.

 

[baypen]

Also if now everybody here will hate me, but I really enjoy the fact, that it´s now the first time, that I am ranked on the 1st day of tourney under the top 50 , that´s really nice !
Of course I will stay there only for a short time, but however, I like this changement, that it will be much more difficult to get 10000+ points every week even for hard core players with several bears and phoenix, that still a lot of players don´t have. AND Elvenar is NOT a pure game for fighters, it´s a game also for traders, who, until now. never had a chance to enter the top ranking in tournament. Now, maybe they will also get a small chance and maybe a good mixture of fighting and trading will equalize this game again a bit more.

 

[FieryArien]

I think I know why it resulted in a loss... The enemy has in this fight units that are counting 2-6 squad size per unit. So with a squad size of 1 these enemies should be <1/2 units, which is rounded to 1. Therefore the enemy is playing with squad size of 2-6 instead oc 1. Before, squad sizes couldn't go below 6 to prevent this issue.

Wow, this aspect didn't cross my mind. Thanks!

@Marindor, I think this issue should definitely find its way into the feedback for developers. My original post is here and the explanation of the problem is quoted just above.

 

[Marindor]

@FieryArien Already forwarded, but thanks for the extra head's up

 

[T6583]

I was a bit surprised when I played today. I recently started a Beta City. I'm in Chapter 1, have 2 squad size upgrades completed, a squad size of 15, and 2 proviences unlocked. So not much to go off of. I will preface this by saying I am well aware that fighting is typically hard for early level players. I specifically choose to fight my first tourney encounter. I was up against 2 mages, 2 treants, and 1 heavy range. I don't remember what the enemy squad size was but I remember thinking that with that troop mix it should be a win. I went in with 5 light range units and was completely slaughtered. I don't remember troops being this weak in the beginning. Maybe I was wrong. I've had no issue fighting for provience expansions so I was a bit taken back as to how that loss happened in tourney. However I will say it was extremely easy to cater, which was to be expected since catering is typically easier for a small. city. In reading the comments it seems that I'm not the only one who experienced a loss with a smiliar troop mix. I don't know if its due to being such a young city or if there is something else here but figured I would mention it.

 

[maxiqbert]

I was a bit surprised when I played today. I recently started a Beta City. I'm in Chapter 1, have 2 squad size upgrades completed, a squad size of 15, and 2 proviences unlocked. So not much to go off of. I will preface this by saying I am well aware that fighting is typically hard for early level players. I specifically choose to fight my first tourney encounter. I was up against 2 mages, 2 treants, and 1 heavy range. I don't remember what the enemy squad size was but I remember thinking that with that troop mix it should be a win. I went in with 5 light range units and was completely slaughtered. I don't remember troops being this weak in the beginning. Maybe I was wrong. I've had no issue fighting for provience expansions so I was a bit taken back as to how that loss happened in tourney. However I will say it was extremely easy to cater, which was to be expected since catering is typically easier for a small. city. In reading the comments it seems that I'm not the only one who experienced a loss with a smiliar troop mix. I don't know if its due to being such a young city or if there is something else here but figured I would mention it.

it's a calculation bug (see above)

 

[chris0707070707]

Dear Inno. I am shocked and seriously concerned. I can not say how the new system will impact my 2 cities on live servers (I don't care, I will adapt anyway eventually), but I can definitely say what it will be like for the beginners. Fighting will become nearly impossible,

Chapter IV city, Squad Size=93

Province nr 20.

Let's do some basic math.
Tournament old: Tournament SS in province nr. 20 = 93
Tournament new: Tournament SS in province nr. 20 =1018

1018 / 93 = 10.94

Of course one has to divide it by 4 (1 fight instead of 4)

10.94 / 4 = 2.73
This is the factor by which my Tournament SS effectively grew, even taking into account 1 conflict instead of 4.

You could say that province nr. 20 is a "high" province for a chapter IV player. I disagree, but let's put my objection aside.
Let's take province nr. 10 !

Tournament old: Tournament SS in province nr. 10 = 47 (the half of my province nr.20 SS)
Tournament new: Tournament SS in province nr. 10 =533

533 / 47 = 11.3
11.3 / 4 = 2.83
So assuming I will lose 1 squad/fight, in the new system I will lose 2.83 times more troops than in the old system. In province number 10 ! Not even taking into account, that enemy's SS is already bigger than mine.

Dear Inno, I was one of the few who was really looking forward to your announced changes. Progressive difficulty level - great thing, at least that's what I thought until today. I expected province nr 20 to be a break even point. I personally would prefer province nr. 40 to be such a point, but I could live with nr. 20. Please go through the data I provided and consider the impact of your changes on new players/beginners. As an advanced player I can live with every difficulty level, but from what I understood tournaments should become easier for the beginners. You made them almost unplayable instead, at least as far as fighting option is concerned.

We definitely needed some changes in tournaments, but your new formulas need some serious balancing before going live.

 

[DeletedUser1657]

When trying to decide if its harder or easier now, do not forget to take into account that previously 4 fights, is now 1 fight. So i don't think you can look at the base numbers and compare them, it would be better to compare your total losses/costs.

Difficulty and cost are not the same, so base numbers comparing the ratio for difficulty is still valid. Losses of course will vary based on the changed squad size formula, single encounter and difficulty. There are other matters impacting difficulty but they tend to be less noticeable than the ratio of squad sizes. Where this gets very concerning is in dony's chart below.

Difficulties

Spoiler: Difficulties

View attachment 7550
after province 33 its 1% for every other

I have not done as many provinces but my numbers are coming out very similar, minor variance. What concerns me is inno has told us that they designed the fights to be impossible when our units are outnumbered 2 to 1. This table would indicate that barring buffs we (avg player) are not expected to get past approx province 30.

Once upon a time province 6 was 1.85 difficulty and it got reduced to 1.6. Granted buff buildings have come into play but there is complexities to that discussion. So around province 20 (give or take a bit for round you are in) we are experiencing the same difficulty we currently face at round 6

Has anyone run the maths on what this means for a fellowship in achieving 10 chests but also if they wanted to try and get the 9 bonus chests? Is it even possible to get the 9 bonus ones if players are stopped around province 30? what about province 20 for a more avg player?

Regardless the message seems to be clear, we are not supposed to get the amount of KP, relics and runes that we currently are. Time will tell what is considered reasonable.

 

[T6583]

it's a calculation bug (see above)

I missed that. Thanks.

 

[DeletedUser3340]

Wrong wrong wrong
it's a big delusion to see your "new idea" of tournamet.
For what strange reason u go to change the most funny part of this game? and absolutely in BAD.
Someone sayd that is to buy more diamonds .... what?? haha , forget it !
U want to sell more diamonds? sell new instants of productions to make more goods ,
sell new building to customize the cities and make them unique and different from all the others... sell new avatar limited edition for players
sell differnt landscape around the cities , sell new multplicators more strong than the others , sell new songs for the cities ... etc etc etc
Be creative plz ....mooore!
it's only the fist day and i lost all soldiers , but wanna see , want to understand and i used bear and enhancements to make new soldiers ....
BEEEP ... not enought , not possible to do what i did till this moment and SURE not possible to help my fellowship to conquer the tenth chest in arendyll.
Not possible to make a right combo against the enemies....
But most of all NOT POSSIBLE TO HAVE FUN !
Because we are here to have fun, to have a break from the rest and not cursing at the computer like lots of us do every days at work...
IS A WRONG STRATEGY , u start to lost lots of player believe me.
CHANGE , GO BACK isnt "just an opinon" but the direct result of an unfortunate choice.
I spent years playing this game, I had fun but I will never be able to accept a situation like this,
where until yesterday I made a difference and from tomorrow I will be mr.nobody and like me, all those who made the greatest contribution to their guild...
I can't believe it.
Regards

 

[DeletedUser2705]

Guys, I don’t understand this, how many years, despite the fact that pushing is prohibited by the rules, you turned a blind eye to it. People stuffed KP in packs. The players wrote complaints, sent a screen, you did not respond to this. Now the players who play by the rules, by your rules, try to catch up with them and you cut them KP?
Fine!
Why are you adding 9 chests? Do you complicate the tournament and add chests at the same time ?! It is not normal. Where is the logic?
No one will fight for allied chests in which 10 KP, if there are no personal KP along the way.
If you want to slow down the development of miracles in this way, then you have been fooled a long time ago by anyone who wanted to. You punish players who adhere to the rules.

 

[edeba]

This is a problem, but for some reason I just couldn't stop laughing at it. All this talk about making it easier for players like you... It sure doesn't look easier... I just find the irony hilarious.

Hi all, I joined beta today because of the tournament changes. Obviously I only have one province to play with. This was my result:
View attachment 7559
My squad size was 2, enemy’s was just 1. Somehow I fail to understand how this tournament rebalance is supposed to make the entry easier for small/new players. If I were new and if I had such cruel first experience, it certainly wouldn’t help with getting me hooked to the game.

The vote was to reduce tournament encounters. I am in total agreement that your arguments against the idea were totally disconnected from the idea. Crazyhorse argued you couldn't trust inno to not screw up a good thing by other choices they would make, which makes sense. I argued for some trust, which at this point was misplaced, but it isn't over yet.

Going from 4 to 1 clicks is great, but they did a whole bunch of other stuff that no one voted for and they ignored the comments about keeping the existing balance, which was slaughtered. I lost 29% of my troops and I only battled to province 20. Level 1 is still easier. I was losing far less going out 40+ provinces. I probably only got to around province 16 to match troops required to go out 45 provinces before the change, so in the range of a 60-65% reduction.

On beta I went from not needing orcs in the tournament to having insanely high catering requirements. With not doing the optional squad size upgrades I think the orc requirement came in later. No one asked to have their coin and supplies wiped out so the ability to negotiate the spire is harmed, and actually, I had other resources to do what I normally do except the coin and supplies ran out. I am not sure at this point if what I did is sustainable, going to province 43. I currently go a full 50% further on live (around province 65) and that is for sure impossible for me with this new set up.

People did ask to have the squad size benefit from not doing the optional squad size upgrades dealt with, and that was addressed. The insanely high catering costs and gross imbalance with goods was dealt with. I'm not sure that I can take advantage of it because of the supply and coin costs. I am sure that on live I won't be able to take advantage because supplies, coin, mana and orc costs. It seemed to me that catering was only giving 5-6 net extra province at the higher province levels, like province 40+.

Absolutely, I remember I was sort of insulted when I voted against it in the last poll here on beta. If you want to have fun take a look at the whole thread. I really don't like to have been right about what would happen...

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/tournaments-reduce-tournament-encounters.12885/page-8#post-80083

That's a good point about how it will really cut into people that are not able to do more levels. I was doing my best to go all the way on the first two levels and just do other levels as time allowed and there's been lots of weeks that I haven't done the last level or two.

I am sorry Marindor, but on this new tournamet is nothing more rewarding. We did provinces on higher levels before as well, but now we will make generaly less provinces and players who have time for tuournamet just maybe two times in week will be hardly discriminated. This will least to situation, where players will gain less KP, spells...from individual rewards and it will be harder for fellowships to make 10 (or less) chest in general.

The only ones, who will profit from this, will be those who play for dead accounts, for them, it will be easier to make 10 chests, because they will be making just first easy provinces.

Secondly, there will be raised even more pusching accounts, because KP will be again more precious.

For new players, it will be really rard to gain enought relic for their boosted manufactories.

And i could go on with bad impact on and on...

Totally agree. My losses were massive. I completely drained my coin and supplies and I did not get as far as last week, close, but I didn't have my resources slaughter going as far as I did last week.

If it will not be possible to get the same thing from the tournament as before (with the same or lower losses), it really makes no sense to play.