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Trader Solving the cross tier trade permanently

Discussion in 'Archive: Ideas and Suggestions' started by CrazyWizard, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

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    Because it's not in game you cannot compare them, that why in my calculations I used a different chapter.

    Once we are to the race after the dragons, we can compare the lvl 23's. and if properly designed the rate will be about the same.

    thats why I named 1:2:4 , it's slightly "unfair" according to the calculations I made, but it are whole numbers, and because new factories are introduces in a tier 1, 2,3 manner, it somewhat compensates for the fact the other 2 "run ahead"

    In my opinion it's the closest you can get to a "fair" distribution.
     
  2. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

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    Whether you compare lvl 19 to lvl 19 or 23 to 23 doesnt matter.
    I still feel 4-2-1 would make the tier3 goods too cheap. A bit of an extra value shouldnt be a problem, which is why I feel more for 9-3-1.
    This already nearly halves the value of the present ratio.
     
  3. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    9:3:1 is still too high imo, the 9:1 portion still makes an all T3 player twice as efficient as a T1 player (better than 4x I guess)

    When I imagine seeing a bunch of 9:1 trades, I cannot see myself taking any of them.
     
  4. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

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    *grins*...right now I just might. But then again, I don't take cross-tier trades at all at this moment, as a matter of principle, with the only exception of a few players who are just entering into needing the next tier goods and just don't have enough of a production yet.

    But 4-2-1 seems far too cheap for me, even 5-2-1 seems rather cheap.
     
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  5. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

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    You can't balance stuff on gut feelings. balance is essentialy a boring math equasion.

    Right now the math used in the system uses the coins/supplies equasion
    I propose a space based equasion instead since I consider the current equasion more than flawed.. the math will then tell what the numbers should be.

    As long as the math is flawed or flain wrong the "fair" part wont be reached.
    Just like people now are using plain math to determine that cross tier trades are more favorable.
     
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  6. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

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    Everyone agrees that the present system is hopelessly flawed...except Inno I guess
     
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  7. Mykan

    Mykan Well-Known Member

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    Actually I don't agree its flawed, they have just used a different measure, one based on coins/supplies rather than space. If they switch to space there will still be people complaining how it is unfair but then for those to post "fair" trade they will be forced into 0/1 star trades and ridiculed for it rather than as now they just adjust to a 3 star trade and appear generous.

    One of the reason there are so many cross tier trades even at the current 2 star ratio is there is obviously a supply for them that people are willing to meet so a lot of people are happy with the way it works otherwise they would not be accepting the trades.

    I think a button default on the trader tab so you can select the current ratio or an alternate as your default for posting trades would be handy. Then a person can post based on their preference of coin/supply cost or on space cost. They also need to add more filter options too.

    Edit: The 1:4:16 ratio is integrated in other areas of the game like production which is why the cost ratio used there is used in trading. Be extremely careful for what we are asking as one way of viewing this request is to fix the ratios of production so support usage is the same and then suddenly we have less output of tier 2 and 3 goods but for the same people, culture, goods and supplies. This is a fairly core fundamental to the game that I suspect many things are balanced on. Tweaking only one small part of that could have large consequences many of which we may not like. The more I look at this the more I am convinced the only safe request is to have more functionality in the trading system rather than change the star rating.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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  8. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

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    I doubt so many people are happy to take the trades. I can see trades from the same players day in-day out until they expire.

    And considering the very low number of active people on the map who are also able to take trades, giving 32K tier1 goods for 2K tier3 goods on a regular basis it's safe to say that there just isn't a lot of such trades being accepted.
    Even more so since I've been getting messages with the question to take some of them since I used to take some at times, but I've quit doing that since its just not possible to keep up.
     
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  9. ketjatekos

    ketjatekos Well-Known Member

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    I highly agree with adjusting the numbers, I have calculated the amount of place required to produce x steel, scrolls and magic dust in the beginning of fairies. (That means possibility for lvl 19 steel but no scrolls, but possibility for fairy residence and workshop.
    (As a note, it does NOT worth to upgrade from lvl 16 steel to higher until a much later point in game in term of production/square)
    So i used lvl 15/16 steel (15 optimal, but 16 needs less road), 14 scroll, 13 dust, as these were the OPTIMAL ones. The compared values are 1 : 1,7 : 4,3.

    I took in calculation: culture, residences, squares to produce the needed supplies, squares to produce the leftover coins witch do not come from the residences already built.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  10. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure this is the case. Remember when we had to explain to the mods why it is impossible for a player to produce 16 times as much T1 as T3?
    They had no idea that cross tier trades weren't completly fair to both parties. Granted, mods aren't coders, but I truly believe the 16:1 default was an oversight, and not a standard that other aspects of the game are balanced around.

    I suppose it is possible that the developers would change the actual output of the buildings to reflect the 16:1 ratio, but that seems like a lot more work, and the outcry would be intense.
     
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  11. Mykan

    Mykan Well-Known Member

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    The game already reflects this in its costs to produce. While I have not yet taken every single factory and every single level the ones I have done have a clear pattern. Regardless of factory level it costs
    • 2 supplies and 20 coins for 1 basic good
    • 8 supplies and 80 coins for 1 crafted good
    • 32 supplies and 320 coins for 1 magic good
    They can change the output without changing that ratio. What would change is whatever ratios they have used in terms of people/culture for buildings and goods. If they turned down the amount of output of a magic factory so it is equal in space to a basic factory they could still keep the coin/supply ratio but your magic factory then produces 1/3 of what it does now (guessing I haven't done the maths).

    Not saying the devs will do this but they have stated and for good reason they look to see the cause of a problem that we raise and try to address it not its effect (symptom). While we say the solution is X we may yet find they fix it with Y but we don't like Y. They may not have used X because they believe it won't solve the problem just a symptom while they feel Y solves the problem.
     
  12. eformo

    eformo Active Member

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    The most efficient means for producing dust is not a L19 dust factory though. Has anyone done this with max efficiency level factories yet? I know that optimal level of manufactory especially is different for humans and elves, but also that it is never later than 15th level. Sorry I don't have my spreadsheet on efficiency here to look up specifics though
     
  13. Gandolfus

    Gandolfus Well-Known Member

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    Eformo - interesting statement, and I am not in a position to dispute it. Rather, I'd like to hear more as to what you mean. Would you expand on it please?
     
  14. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    level 19 makes the most dust per square, do you mean dust per population or culture? Those would be interesting comparisons.
     
  15. Buttrflwr

    Buttrflwr Well-Known Member

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    I know I haven't been on forum much lately, but did ANYTHING ever come out of this? Have the devs ever mentioned this again since Muf-muf was schooled in the mathematics of how asinine the current ratio system is? (I have that post bookmarked, LOVED @SoggyShorts visuals.) :p
     
  16. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK, nothing.
    I believe that all of the evidence has been dismissed, and the devs are holding onto the idea that space and time to produce goods is not relevant, only supplies are.:rolleyes:
    Lol link pls?
     
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  17. Mykan

    Mykan Well-Known Member

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    Its possible they consider other things the root cause of the problem. Many people have little issue with cross tier trades in certain circumstances. Most have big problems with players who put a heavy or complete reliance on it.

    You also have to realise that changing the basis of a fair trade from cost to produce to something else would have significant ramifications on different parts of the game. The game has been balanced, as far as I can tell, based on the cost to produce and rates of production, etc. It is by no means as simple as change the formula in the trader.

    Your best bet would be to request a way to flip the star rating based on player choice between cost to produce to something else. Ether way the trader needs more filtering options to help it be easier to use. Especially if Timmon gets his wish and those 200 people start posting trades.
     
  18. Buttrflwr

    Buttrflwr Well-Known Member

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  19. Sir Squirrel

    Sir Squirrel Well-Known Member

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    I think I am with Mykan on this one, as much as I would like to see it changed, I am very afraid about how they might decide to do that. I agree they would not likely just change the ratios in the trader (that would be too easy). Not to mention all the players that have built their cities to take advantage of the cross-tier trades would freak out and quit the game (just like when they tried to get rid of the quest cycling)!!
    It's not a big deal to me, I would say glad to see you go, but the Dev's might not want to see any more players leave.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  20. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

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    I think you are at the heart of the real problem several of us have with the devs, if we ask something as simple as a viaual change to what a fair trade is, the devs always find a way to screw up everything by starting from scratch and make it even worse. unfortunatly that seems to be there trademark for a while.

    My main problem with the current rating system for trades it that it gives some players a sense of fairness in there trade when in reality it just ain't. we even had fights with players who demanded from us we cross downtraded because the trader said it was fair so it was fair. even if we explained it wasnt.
     

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