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Trader Solving the cross tier trade permanently

Discussion in 'Archive: Ideas and Suggestions' started by CrazyWizard, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016
    On the international forums I have recalculated what should be the "best" trade ratio for 2 star trades.

    It would be great if we can finally get rid of that insane 1:4:16 ratio.
    This calculation is based on how much goods per square you produce. this does not look at just the factory level but it's entire chain from supply production to required workers for the chain ect.

    Could we now pretty please have this changed?

    Conclusion was: 1-2-4 or 1:2:3 So I like to suggest a change in trade ratio from 1:4:16 to 1:2:4 or 1:2:3 (or 1-2-3.5 for better accuracy)



    Calculation:
     
  2. Gandolfus

    Gandolfus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    This calculation is based on a high level players perspective and abilities, and completely disregards anyone who is years away from those level 19 manufactories.
     
  3. Heymrdiedier

    Heymrdiedier Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016
    as it is now i agree something has to change.

    i love it when i put up an unfair trade: for example 1000 silk for 3500 marble. that it gets a 3 star rating. That usually means someone picks it up quite fast because they believe they are getting a good trade.

    However this is misleading to the low level players. they also think they are putting up a fair trade when they offer 100 silk for 400 marble, and are very surprised to see that its not getting accepted.
     
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  4. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Not true,
    I grabbed an insertion point at that level because at that point all factories are the same.
    If culture between humans and elves would have been equal I would have grabbed the lvl 15 factories.
    Unfortunatly the devs decided a on the first 5 chapters and b on the other ones.

    The moment I start comparing apples with pears it wont work so I first needed a point were all factories are either apples or pears. I found this point at the orcs and then worked backwards. If I had grabbed the woodelves chapter then I would have compared 1 apple with 2 pears again.

    So even at those lower levels it should be close enough to match this calculation, and should surely be closer to the truth than 1:4:16.
    Only will the humans be at a slight disadvantage due to the skightly higher cost of culture, but thats not something we can fix anymore.

    edit: it seems I was wrong the building sizes differ but the culture per square is the same.
    to be continued

    edit2: it's not the culture but the factories themselves that arent "fair" if you were lucky 1 type was better than the other at level 15, for the best rating for example you needed the "gems" factory as the elixer and the magic dust factory had different building costs. they have straigtened that out in the past few chapters.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
    thedarkboo and SoggyShorts like this.
  5. Gandolfus

    Gandolfus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    So you agree, your comparison is "true"at a particular time. Yet, it disregards the players abilities and values in chapters 1, 2, 3.... the player who can build a T1 factory no larger than 8. At that players point, all factories are not the same, and your comparison becomes invalid.
     
  6. Heymrdiedier

    Heymrdiedier Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016

    i dont agree its invalid. you compare all lvl 8 factories ofcourse with each other or all lvl 10 or all lvl 15 i dont care.
    Theres no point in comparing a lvl 15 factory with a lvl 19 one of another type just because your tech tree allows you to build a lvl 19 one at that point but only a lvl 15 of the other type. You know thats changing again in the next research chapter. and you cant change the ratio every guestrace that just doesnt make sense.
     
  7. Gandolfus

    Gandolfus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    But fair must be measured at the point of the trade. Knowing my factory size will change later, doesn't change anything NOW.

    You are right, the set ratio cannot change each chapter, and yet, the comparative values do change. And, nowhere in this discussion is mentioned a basic tenet of any economy - Return on investment. The higher cost of building a facility should indeed give it's output an increased value, otherwise why build it?

    If the ratio is 1:4:16 is cut, it becomes a better deal to make all T1's and trade for those cheap T2, T3s.... then suddenly, people start selling thei T3s and replacing them with maxed T1s.... and we are all screaming for high level goods.
     
    Mykan likes this.
  8. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    @Gandolfus
    I've run those calculations using chapter 4,5,6,8 max buildings, and it's almost exactly the same results as above. 1:2:4, or 1,2:5 at most.
    No one would sell off the T3s to make just T1 because they would not become more efficient space or time-wise than T3s, they would become equal.

    As far as ROI, if you are refering to T3s being more expensive to upgrade or build than t1s, that is very minor, maybe 1 days production difference. Compare to a lifetime of 400% over-valuation, I think it can be ignored.

    And for players in Chapter 1,2,3, they don't really matter in cross tier trades because they don't need any T3 goods, nor can they produce them.
     
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  9. lynxze

    lynxze Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2016
    I calculated the ratios for chapter 3 (humans/marble/silk/gems): 2,4 : 2,2 : 1 with lvl 8 residences and 2,9 : 2,5 : 1 with lvl 15 residences.

    I can make a list from chapter 3 (first chapter where its possible to produce T3) and onwards if you want, but I can promise that the current crosstrade ratios (16:4:1) are completely off for each chapter no matter goods composition and race.
     
  10. Gandolfus

    Gandolfus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    Best revisit your tree. I have not opened ch 4 in any of my cities, and have 3 cities ready to build or having T3 factories. But my production of T3 goods and my need of them in opening provs as well as tournament participation "don't really matter".

    As to your statement that no one would go all T1 as oppose to a T1,T2,T3 configuration.... there are hundreds of posts that make that doubtful. How many people are screaming for T1 goods? Complaining there aren't enough? So, supply and demand..... if the premium for T3 goes away, everyone will build T1, plenty of demand for it.
     
  11. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016
    I have looked up a random picture from the net.
    [​IMG]
    What you are referring to are the dots that you see here, you pick out a single dot and base your reply on this dot
    I have calculated the black line. as it's the closes as you can get to being "fair"
     
    Wild As Fire likes this.
  12. Gandolfus

    Gandolfus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    So, I presume all of you are happy to trade your tier 3 to me at 1:3?
     
  13. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    right, I forgot you get T3 in chapter 3 not 4.

    There is artificial demand for T1 because T3 buildings are WAY more space efficient, so players building extra T1 cannot possibly keep up with T3 builders in a 16:1 environment.
    At 4:1 my gems/elix/dust, for your planks/steel/marble, yes. As much as you want, up to a few million of each today.
    Or the other way around, if you like. because it takes the same space/time to produce the goods either way.(which is the point we are all trying to make clear)

    Another huge benefit to the playerbase if the ratio is fixed would be that many large players would clear out all of the trades in their area. If the ratio was set to 1:2:4, and a 2 star only filter was added, I would blindly accept all trades I could see that were under 50,000, just to help out players in my area.(I already take all same-tier trades like that)
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
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  14. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016
    if the value is somewhat similar I have no problems with crosstrading, because what I get is "worth" the same effort as what it takes me to get it.

    Just to note I do not have an issue with crosstrading itself, I have an issue with the star system.
    The devs have stated before the star system only takes into account the amount of supplies and the amount fo gold coins, it ignores every other factor of the game.

    If a town producing soley marble, and I produce soley gems and we trade with eachother his weeks production for mine, thats what I call a fair deal.
    If we follow the current star system. you need 13.5 towns producing soley marble to to feed that 1 town of gems.

    Thats the defenition of imbalance.

    The only thing I want is to "modify" the star formula so that +-1 town of gems == +- 1 town of marble.
    It doesnt have to be exact but is has to be as close as possible, since both towns do there best to produce the biggest amount possible it's only fair that both get the same reward for there effort.
     
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  15. Wild As Fire

    Wild As Fire Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    I love that idea. We are already switching over to 1:2:4 within FS, and encourage building more T1 as apposed to relying on T3 to fill up T1 stocks with fair-looking but very FS draining trades. I'm not a big advocate to cross tier anyway, but at the current rate I'm not even looking at them (especially T3 -> T1) unless it's actual emergency for a fellow. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who automatically disregards 2 star cross trades.
     
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  16. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2017
    9:3:1 would be ok
     
  17. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Could you build a case on what these numbers are based?
     
  18. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2017
    First I use it as a given that 16-4-1 is an incorrect ratio.

    I've mentioned it somewhere else on the crosstrades as an example, but I'll post it here as well
    (my main city, end of woodelves chapter, all factories maxed, all boosts maxed)
    1 gem factory lvl 19 takes up 5x4=20 squares, produces 3328 gems/3 hours and uses 2048 pop
    1 planksfactory lvl 23 takes up 6x3-18 squares, produces 3317 planks/3 hours and uses 2405 pop

    So 1 lvl 19 gemsfactory needs about 13 lvl 23 planksfactories if one wanted to trade the production in the 1-16 ratio. So far so good, as it might make it worth 1:16 value. However, that 1 gemsfactory has nowhere near as much pop (about the same, NOT 16X as much or even 4X as much) or space tied up as 13 planksfactories would need, even if one considers the amount of supplies needed.
    So from a pure economical point of view, its far more interesting to put up only tier3 factories and let some other sucker try to fullfill your demand for tier 1 goods, which he won't be able to do even if he only builds that kind of factory. And with space becoming more and more an issue because fighting for expansions is pretty much ground down and premiumexpansions need some kind of Rockefeller-support to get, quite some people are economising their available space.
    Also, if you're interested in ranking points, the tier3 factories are far more interesting than the tier1 factories
    Which is one reason one sees so many crosstier-trades now.

    However, if one takes into account the supplies, it would probably end up around 5-2,5-1. My suggestion of 9-3-1 is close enough to that ratio and it also uses whole numbers AND in a straightforward ratio.

    Edit: oops...edited the output, I'd put down the pop there as well. I hope no-one is quoting already.
    Also edited the size...my bad.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  19. CrazyWizard

    CrazyWizard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016

    I have 2 problems with your case.
    First of all the a planks factory is 18x3 not 5x3, second one is that your are comparing an apple to a pear. a lvl 19 factory should be compared to a lvl 19 factory not to a lvl 23 just as we are not comparing a lvl 1 factory to a lvl 15..

    I would like to advise you to read the calculations from the original post first. and then build a new case.
     
  20. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2017
    I'm very sure my planks factory IS NOT 18x3, but you are correct, it's 6x3. (I'll edit that)

    As for comparing a lvl 23 planksfactory to a lvl 19 gemsfactory...there is no lvl 23 gemsfactory yet.

    However, this makes it even worse, since the space needed for the tier1 factories is even more out of sync than before, as is the output.
    As I said, it's 13 factories to 1, but I also stated that the ratio is ok, which is because the lvls aren't quite the same.

    At lvl 19 a woodfactory is 5x2, 1153 pop, so not even close to being as efficient as a tier3 factory of the same lvl, making a 1-2-4 ratio even more likely.
    But I dont mind tier3 being more expensive than tier1. The 16-1 is however grossly overrated
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017

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