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mistwalkers too powerfull

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
Summary
The mistwalkers seem to be rather overpowered, whereas player units have been powered down.
Also, mistwalkers are encountered way too early in the game

Description
Mistwalkers will ALWAYS move first since there is no player unit that has an initiative that is even equal to it.
Also with their high damage they will wipe out squads in the lower chapters.

Motivation
Especially in the chapters 1-2 they will be encountered by players with no possible chance to win. The basic units are too weak and 2 squads of 24 mistwalkers will wipe out 5 squads of 9 or 15 basic troops, because their first move and high damage will ensure a player actually only has 3 squads left when starting the combat.

Personally I feel that some kind of change is needed for lower chapters, preferably eliminating mistwalkers from being encountered in the first 2-3 rings at least, or when encountered in smaller numbers.

Even in later chapters the mistwalkers seem to be overpowered when compared to any kind of unit a player can field. Meaning that in battles that are still in the normal range of provinces a player will face not only superior units, but also in (far) superior numbers, making it an unbalancing factor.
 

shadowblack

Well-Known Member
Thank you, @Dhurrin

A couple of things to add:
- Mist Walkers have 4 movement while Dryads have just 3 movement. This makes them a lot more useful in combat and makes it easier for them to stay away from melee attackers (especially if there are obstacles in the way).
- Mist Walkers have Strike Back so they will retaliate if the attacker is within range. This means additional losses for our units in the early game. Elves have no unit with range above 4 until Fairies, when they get the Blossom Mage, while Humans are a little better - they get the Priest and the Mortar in Chapter III.

Personal opinion: Mist Walkers should not be encountered AT ALL in the first 4 (four) rings - in other words the first two chapters. Chapter II requires 10 Provinces while Chapter III requires 30 Provinces. The first ring has just 6 provinces, the second has another 6 (plus 6 player cities), and the third ring has 12 more provinces (and 6 more player cities). A total of 24 provinces in the first three rings, yet payers need 30. That means another 6 provicnes in ring 4 must be completed before unlocking chapter III, when we finally get Golems for Elves and Priest/Mortar for Humans. That's why I beleive Mist Walkers should appear in Ring 5 at the earliest.
 

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
Thank you, @Dhurrin

A couple of things to add:
- Mist Walkers have 4 movement while Dryads have just 3 movement. This makes them a lot more useful in combat and makes it easier for them to stay away from melee attackers (especially if there are obstacles in the way).
I didn't realize this, if true then I agree Dryads should have 4 as well. When they changed the range of the enchantress for the enemy they said that the sorceress had to be changed as well for "balance" , it would seem that only counts when its on our side. lol.
Although I am sure this is just an oversight.:rolleyes:
I totally agree that lower levels should not run into mist walker troops, they are over powering at the early stages, when we don't have the troops to deal with them.
@Mykan suggested in another post, maybe adding some mage\heavy range troops to beginning players, to maybe level the playing field, and that way not having to recode the first two chapter enemies. I thought this was a very good idea.
 
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Dony

King of Bugs
the problem you are describing here is more about tuning first 2-3 chapters then mistwalkers itself
personally i dont think units should be balanced around early chapters at all, on the end of tech tree now there is no issue with mistwalkers
easy fix to that is to replace mistwalker in chapter 1-2 (3) with either bandit or wild archer

also you are comapring wrong units
dryad is not counterpart to mistwalker, ranger is, and he has 4 movement, 4 range and strike back ability, which both races got later on

its obvious that not every province will be same difficulty, some of them will be harder, but even fighters can negotiate first chapters since its so cheap and fast compared to producing units
 

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
@Dony Ok if the mist walker is the ranger counterpart, what unit is the dryad's counterpart?
As far as I have seen so far every troops counterpart looks like it's counterpart, ex. archer \wild archer, priest\abbot, paladin\knight, orc warrior\orc general ect.
 
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shadowblack

Well-Known Member
To me it seems the Mist Walker is the counterpart to the Dryad, just like the Thornrose Mage is the counterpart to the Blossom Mage. Fun fact: Thornrose Mage has Strike Back while Blossom Mage does not.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
To me it seems the Mist Walker is the counterpart to the Dryad, just like the Thornrose Mage is the counterpart to the Blossom Mage. Fun fact: Thornrose Mage has Strike Back while Blossom Mage does not.
level 3 of thornrose doesnt have retaliation tho
 

shadowblack

Well-Known Member
level 3 of thornrose doesnt have retaliation tho
I just learned something new. I don't think there's another unit that loses an ability upon reaching the highest level.


Anyway, another reason I think Mist Walker is the counterpart to Dryad: Both Mist Walker and Dryad have size 2, while Rangers have size 1.
 

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
EDIT : I think that the mist walkers are a little to over powered even in higher levels (mostly just be there movement points) as the troops we have to use against them don't work to good, the mortar takes the hit from all the mist walkers before getting a shot off and the same with light melee, (axe and sword) then they can't even reach the mist walkers on there first turn, and then they (mist walkers) will pull back even further and you run into the other enemies (Knight and orc general) trying to get to them and get killed. The dogs can reach them though, but still take the hit in the first round.
I still think it's counterpart is Dyads though, and if it is, then they should have the same abilities.
The Thornrose retaliation must be an over sight as well if the blossom mage doesn't have retaliation. IMO
@Marindor do you know if the dryad is the mist walker counter part?
I am thinking we havn't met the rangers counter part yet:eek:, but I might be wrong, wouldn't be the first time or the last I would imagine.
 
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Dony

King of Bugs
well size doesnt matter at all, you can do all math based on size 1 and go from there

confusion comes from a fact that we have 4 light ranged units on our side (human+elf) and only 3 on enemy side
 

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
Another reason why I don't think the ranger is the mist walkers counter part is, it doesn't make since, seeing that we come across the mist walker so early in the chapters (chapter 1 or 2) to have the counter part not available until wood elves!
 
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Mykan

Well-Known Member
They are unlikely to tweak what is in a province just for era 1 and 2 due to how provinces work. It is more likely to adjust a stat on a 1 star mist walker or some other boost to era 1-2 towns.

My human town on the live server had a real tough time with the mist walker this tournament. It is near end of fairies and the cerberus II and mortar II for often then not lost to heavy mist walker mobs (round 5 of a tournament). While that is a harder round I would have expected to win the fights having used the right units but heavy losses due to difficulty. Even axe barbarians III could not get past some of the same fights. ow this might partly be the lack of access to the better units for my town which come in the next era but on several towns at different eras mist walkers are a real pain.

They are the only unit I find quite regularly that normal combinations don't work and I have to reconsider my approach. Take out the mist walker or if its a different light ranger unit and I get very different results. I am unsure if they are overpowered but they are very strong, have been looking for a good counter unit for them and wondering if it is yet to come (whether upgrade or something else).
 

Dony

King of Bugs
They are unlikely to tweak what is in a province just for era 1 and 2 due to how provinces work. It is more likely to adjust a stat on a 1 star mist walker or some other boost to era 1-2 towns.
this is already done in a tournament so i dont see a big problem to implement it in rings as well
what i mean is in first 12 provinces in tournament you have easier units, later/deeper in a tournament some units are replaced with stronger version for example light melee units with movement 3 are replaced with light units with movement 4, which increase difficulty even further and this is based on the distance from your town same as rings are, so switching exactly this mechanic to ring 1-2 (3) but other way around (units with movement 4 replaced with units with movement 3) should be possible
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
@Dony If your referring to the star rating (1-3) doesn't this already occur in provinces? You don't get level 3 troops they appear eventually which I assume is related to province and/or era which with chest locks kinda relate.

The basic level mist walker is appearing as normal in its provinces which is very hard for early towns. They could of course lower a level 1s power but but I can't see them putting entirely different troops in unless they did this for everyone.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
no i mean different unit
thief till level 12 province after that ancient orc (same stars)
 

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
I agree that mist walkers should not be in the battles for the first 2 and a half chapters, not sure if they can change this, but they changed them for archers and bandits that were the troops that were there before they added mist walkers.
Also I think they should take a movement point away from the mist walker so it couldn't quite get to our troops in the first round, I think then we wouldn't have such heavy losses against the mist walker even at higher levels where we should be able to win fights against her.
If what was said earlier by shadowblack is true, about mist walkers having an extra movement then the dryad (that I still assume is the counter part of the mist walker) then the mist walker shouldn't have an extra movement point then them anyway.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
then the mist walker shouldn't have an extra movement point then them anyway.
with that logic they can then remove that movement point from ranger and we will have similar thread called ranger underpowered please buff
we need to look at it from both sides not only from ours