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mistwalkers too powerfull

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
So your saying we have to deal with an enemy troop that is over powered for 4 chapters to save them nerfing one that we don't get until wood elves?
I don't see how they are even remotely connected, but whatever leave them or remove them totally from the game, I don't care any more. I'm tired of trying to find a solution that isn't going to cost us in the long run anyway. Guess we all just negotiate because the dev's will take something away from us, because "they" made the troop have to many movement points to begin with and call it "balanced", if that's inno's logic why bother giving any input in the first place.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I Know that the mistwalker are super annoying but I dont find them too powerfull (i dont know about chapter 1 and 2 since I never fight there)

I should not want to change them except for the always first strike part. reconnaissance is a very important technique in winning difficult battles.
With there extremly high initiative it makes this very hard to do. the only way now is to scout with something that can soak as much damage as possible.

For me not a problem, I am swamped in troops, and my troops are as strong as you can get them. and missing a few golems wont hurt me, but for people that can't build troops as efficiently as I do or as storng as mine, loosing those valuable troops just to see a map is to expensive. this way the mistwalkers kill a part of the battle system.

So I prefer having there initiative dropped.
 

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
Dropping there initiative would help, but I was just trying some fights against them and they are really too tough even at higher levels (I am in orc's on the live servers), if there are three or more of them in a battle mixed with abbots or heavy melee you are looking at large losses or even defeat, not sure how this is called balanced, I am a fairly good fighter, so average to low level fighters are just going to get defeated every time. I still think taking a movement point off them to match the Dryad is the best fix, but if the Dev's are just going to nerf a different troop on our side so they have an advantage, then just take the initiative down and I will just continue to negotiate a battle with three or more of them in it. edit : these were fights where I am in the GZ and have an advantage with troop size, so shouldn't be having this hard of time defeating them.
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
They are unlikely to tweak what is in a province just for era 1 and 2 due to how provinces work. It is more likely to adjust a stat on a 1 star mist walker or some other boost to era 1-2 towns.

My human town on the live server had a real tough time with the mist walker this tournament. It is near end of fairies and the cerberus II and mortar II for often then not lost to heavy mist walker mobs (round 5 of a tournament). While that is a harder round I would have expected to win the fights having used the right units but heavy losses due to difficulty. Even axe barbarians III could not get past some of the same fights. ow this might partly be the lack of access to the better units for my town which come in the next era but on several towns at different eras mist walkers are a real pain.

They are the only unit I find quite regularly that normal combinations don't work and I have to reconsider my approach. Take out the mist walker or if its a different light ranger unit and I get very different results. I am unsure if they are overpowered but they are very strong, have been looking for a good counter unit for them and wondering if it is yet to come (whether upgrade or something else).
I dont know about the AI they are unrolling in 1.23 but the current AI was easy to manipulate, if you added a single archer to your troops the mistwalkers would go in the first turn for them and ignore your more dangerous troops.

It was confirmed by innogames that the enemy "cerberus" (forgot his name) for example always attacks treant in round 1 if it can reach it.

Only agains the 3 star fights in the marble province I came into serous problems, and those provinces are extremly hard to win, especially when fighting the odds. (as in round 6 tournament or prvinces in which your fight vs 1.5+ times your troops)

When you meet 2 or more 3 star cannoneers with 2 or so mistwalkers the rest of the battle is a lost cause. because you need to kill those mistwalkers, but you also neet to neutrlise at least 1 of those cannoneers in the first or second round if you want to win the fight.
And at least with the elves I havent been able to achieve that.

Today I just quit the tournament at 31576 points just because I could not even be bothered by it, and you wont find many players on any server with stronger troops than I have. but the troops simply cant handle the double/triple strike combined with the -30% defence debuff the cannons give, and the mistwalkers deny you the option to rush ahead and neutralize most of the cannons power before the slowmoving heavy troops catch up.

You need to focus on there extermination to have troops to kill the other troops incl the cannons.

So to me it's not the mistwalker who is to strong at high levels but the combination of multiple mistwalkers and cannons at high levels.
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
When you meet 2 or more 3 star cannoneers with 2 or so mistwalkers the rest of the battle is a lost cause. because you need to kill those mistwalkers, but you also neet to neutrlise at least 1 of those cannoneers in the first or second round if you want to win the fight.
And at least with the elves I havent been able to achieve that.

So to me it's not the mistwalker who is to strong at high levels but the combination of multiple mistwalkers and cannons at high levels.
Yeah those fights I had to negotiate. Human's fared better than elves for sure but the era and troop technology comes into play a lot. A town with lower level or no military wonders is quite noticeable compared to one with it, specially in the recent tournament with the mist walkers. My beta town (elve era 4ish) just had no hope against the mist walkers and was forced to negotiate most of those unless only 1 mob was there or a favourable map.

The more I look at it I don't think the troop overall is overpowered but there are pockets of issues that could have multiple solutions. My era 2 town has just marched into a mob of mistwalkers so once I have more squads will see how they go. So far I was winning but they just take heavy casualties which slows you down a lot.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
From what I have encountered to many times on to many provinces is that no troop is too powerfull, but multiple wild canoneers are often the issue.
It was kinda strange that you go from all on autocombat this week (in my op unit setup) straight to no win possible even on manual mode.
There should always be a transition period. where manual prevails for a while

the -30% in combination with the way its calculated kills most enemies in a hearbeat. the first shot damages your troop "normally" the second shop pretty much neutralises your entire troop in example of blossom mage the first shot kills 7 troops, the second shot 37 troops.

The difference between the first and second shot is simply to big, especially if you have to run past a bunch of troops to get there.
Only if you are able to reduce the numbers of the second shooting cannon considerably do you have a chance to win.

On a 3 star enemy map with 7 or 8 enemies, lets say 3 wild cannoneers and a bunch of knight if you cant hit the cannons with your priests on round 1 you wont be able to tell the tale. it will just be pretty much impossible massacre. if you add some mistwalkers or bandits or enemy cerberus in the mix it becomes 100% impossible.

The main issue lies in how debuffs are calculated, a second hit should result in 10 or 11 deaths not in 25 of 30 or 37.
I case of maps with 6+ enemies of which 2 are wild cannons you can only negotiate. or if lucky win with half a troop left or so.

My experience is with tournaments, but I am sure it's worse at the world map. at a certain points all enemies become 3 star enemies. that includes plenty of maps in different type of provinces with multiple cannons. it's like always fighing agains 2 types of troops to whom your weak to, and only 1 agains whom your strong. those type of battles become imposible because of that factor, always 2 natural enemies agains you. it's like trying to bring treants and paladins down with steinlings, just because there are some archers on the battlefield.
 

Sir Squirrel

Well-Known Member
You guys keep saying that the mist walker isn't over powered, but it is the only troop that I found that if there is 3 of them in a battle, it is or can quite often be an unbeatable battle, but if you put three of any other unit into a battle this doesn't seem to be happening!!! (at least not as often) Hmmm! Must be the support troops then. (sarcasm). I guess we wait to see if the change with the next update helps, but I still have my doubts. I agree that when fighting against 8 enemy squads they tend to stack the mix so it sometimes becomes unbeatable as well, most of them battles have mist walkers in them.
Why it frustrates me when I come across a battle that is unbeatable is because if I was negotiating, no encounter is unnegotiable (or takes your goods, and then you have to fight it), and the price once set doesn't change, so why do we (those of us who like to fight) have to deal with encounters that can't be beat and will have a more expensive price to beat and then have to be negotiated? Not to mention the time it takes to manually fight a battle compared to negotiating, the game makes it way easier and saves time if you negotiate, but takes longer and costs more in the way of troops and time to fight. I had to setup my city to be able to produce troops, by cutting down on everything not battle related, just the same as someone that negotiates must setup there city for producing more goods to negotiate.
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I could only find a fight at the goldilock zone but I post it anyway.

enemy: 3 mistwalkers, 1 canon 3 knight
Since there is just 1 cannon I choose 3 archer 2 priests as my units (and place them wrong)
I did not scout the map beforehand
upload_2017-2-26_10-48-14.png

I should have placed 1 priest in the middle so it could neutrlise part of the cannoneer in round one, but since I am in the goldilock zone I placed them on the outsides to make it a tiny bit harder.
The archer are here for 2 reasons, 1 because they are neutral agains the mistwalkers and good agains the knight, the second is to make sure my priests are safe (AI always picks archers above priests)
I get lucky and the map allowes only 1 mistwalker to attack.
This makes the map easier but also nastier, now the entire fight I have to take into account that nasty 3rd mistwalker in all my actions instead of killing them first and then sleepwalk trough the rest of the fight.
upload_2017-2-26_10-50-36.png

I move the first "damaged" crossbowmen and atacks the side mistwalker. 1st to damage it and lower it's attack, and second becouse of the master crossbowmens attack reducing power.
upload_2017-2-26_10-52-4.png

The orther 2 crossbowmen attack the 1st mistwalker crippling it severly to 31 units.
upload_2017-2-26_10-53-29.png

The lower priest attacks the mistwalker how already had his strikeback on the crossbowmen, this kills his defence and assuresa guaranteed kill in the next round.
upload_2017-2-26_10-58-17.png

The priest kills the other mistwalker. I like to not that the priest can never move into a position of the 3rd mistwalker UNLESS ther eis also a crossbowmen in range. as long as there is also a crossbowmen in range she will go for him instead keeping your priests out of harms way.
So always looks at what the movement of the mistwalker can be and make sure that if she can reach your priest that you move your crossbowmen in such way they are also in range.
upload_2017-2-26_11-0-25.png

The enemy makes his moves. and the mistwalker decides to attack another crossbowman with a lower initiative, no clue why but thats fine.

upload_2017-2-26_11-3-54.png

2 crossbowmen move and attack the knight, and kill the mistwalker (remember you knicked his defense with priest)
upload_2017-2-26_11-6-52.png

I now move the crossbowman into this postition and attack the knight, this move is important because it brings the crossbowmen in the mistwalkers range. this allows my priest to move freely. the crosbowmens power also kill some of the knights attack.
upload_2017-2-26_11-9-33.png

Priest goes in for some damage, reducing the damage on the vunerable crosbowmen in the knights round.
upload_2017-2-26_11-13-3.png

The priest can now safely move into this vunerable position and decides to attack the other knight who can hit a crossbowman.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
upload_2017-2-26_11-16-11.png

Now the lower crossbowman gets most of the blows directed from him, he is attacked by the fully powered mistwalker, the cannoneer and the knight. the upper crossbowmen ket a smal kick. and good to see the 3rd knight decides to be stupid and moves away to make roomm for the mistwalkers attack on the badly damaged crosbowman.
upload_2017-2-26_11-18-54.png

since I never neutrlised the cannon the damaged crosbowmen wont be able to live till the next round and decides to take the retalliation of the mistwalker.
upload_2017-2-26_11-20-43.png

the other 2 crossbowman move in for the kill, only 3 mistwalkers left, few neough to ignore them for now.
upload_2017-2-26_11-24-56.png

The priest now makes a move with the attamp to get that nasty cannon into range and neutralise it (it would have been so much easier to have dont that in round 1 but so be it)
upload_2017-2-26_11-26-45.png

the second priest makes a similar move
upload_2017-2-26_11-38-54.png

The enemy made his moves and the 1st troop of crossbowmen is gone.
The knight now block my way to the canonneer so I kill him first.
I made a circling move to get the crossbowman out of my way.
the second crosbowman makes his move and start with neutralising the fully sized knight.
The 1st priest will move into position and attacks the strongest knight of the 2.
The second one will make his move and start pounding at the cannoneer.
upload_2017-2-26_11-40-26.png

The enemy made his moves and you can already see how much the cannon was damges, if this was done on the first round by better placement the fight would have been already over.
It's just a matter of killing of the last bits of resistance.
upload_2017-2-26_11-42-36.png

Victory the hard way. it could have been done with maybe half a troop lost.
 

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Dony

King of Bugs
It was confirmed by innogames that the enemy "cerberus" (forgot his name) for example always attacks treant in round 1 if it can reach it.
It was confirmed on this forums or somewhere else? I may have missed that.
if there are three or more of them in a battle mixed with abbots or heavy melee you are looking at large losses or even defeat, not sure how this is called balanced
i would not call that the goal here is to have every battle balanced, first 4 levels in tournament are more or less balanced, 5-6 are challenging for people who likes challenge
also we are in a spot where fights are the hardest possible and it will be easier over time (upgraded units, better AW, bug fixes, unit tuning) and once we will have all 15 units on level 3 it should not be so hard or impossible, we just need to wait and while giving feedback look at this point of view
Only agains the 3 star fights in the marble province I came into serous problems, and those provinces are extremly hard to win, especially when fighting the odds. (as in round 6 tournament or prvinces in which your fight vs 1.5+ times your troops)
I actually thought this was one of the easiest tournament (for elf), 95% of battles i won on first try with random setup i have choosed and the rest was my missplay, i have recorded province clear 9-12 and uploaded it on my youtube channel, maybe you overlooked something (granted i used sorcs a lot which you are not a big fan of)
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I actually thought this was one of the easiest tournament (for elf), 95% of battles i won on first try with random setup i have choosed and the rest was my missplay, i have recorded province clear 9-12 and uploaded it on my youtube channel, maybe you overlooked something (granted i used sorcs a lot which you are not a big fan of)
You most likely forgot to read the 3 star part.
I autocombatted my way trough the entire tournament.

Second I just checked all your fights on the 12th province and none of them were the ones I described and and even the hard ones had a great map layout that helped you out a lot.

It seems that the orc warrior has been modified since it's first introduction(he now has attack lowering properties instead of defence). making him not an sorcerer killer anymore.
that was one of the things I noticed this tournament as well,
I could have sleepwalked your province as well, unfortunatly mine was 3 mistwalkers 2 cannons and 3 knights intead of 2 mistwalkers 2 cannons and 1 knight and a perfect map layout.

Same with the 3 cannon 1!!!!(not multiple) mistwalker fight the map layout was perfect for you to be able to get to 2 of the cannons on the right without being pounded by the nearby 2 heavy melee units. and as long as there is only 1 cannon left there isn't much of a problem.

you could see your damage, the first cannon killed 4 sorceres, the second 21!!!!!. if you dan not been able to reach them the way you did you would have been killed in an instant.

That 4:21 difference makes the cannoneer a real pain in the butt.
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
upload_2017-2-26_12-14-9.png

Talk about the perfect map layout, and then that dumb orc warrior walking as a bonus in the way of the knight. saving you another pounding.
in the first 2 rounds you were able to dismantle 2 of the cannoneers, you wont be this lucky every time.
 

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Dony

King of Bugs
thats why i recorded 4 provinces in a row to include as many maps and setups as possible (3 of them are 3star i have read that )

but there is another question why this big disparity in enemy setups between people
 

Dony

King of Bugs
View attachment 2245
Talk about the perfect map layout, and then that dumb orc warrior walking as a bonus in the way of the knight. saving you another pounding.
in the first 2 rounds you were able to dismantle 2 of the cannoneers, you wont be this lucky every time.
regarding that move, i have tried it plenty of times on that map and it still moved that way, so i was sure it wont hit me, but thats about it, we just watch behaviours of our enemies and use it to our advantage, same will be with new update
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
thats why i recorded 4 provinces in a row to include as many maps and setups as possible (3 of them are 3star i have read that )

but there is another question why this big disparity in enemy setups between people
It would be great if they stopped using the "province" you are in approach , and instead made the encounters numbered.
So that the 1st province is the same for everyone, and then just paste that first province (including it's reward) on the closes province, and the second on the second closest, ect.

But since we all have different provinces in different rings we get different map setups.

But if you have the same bonusgoods everything except the negotioation price is exactly the same.
I have proven that here a long long time ago, both accounts had kristal/marble/elixer as bonus provinces so they were at an interchangable spot (like for the move script)
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
I encountered mistwalkers in chapter 1, so stating the ranger would be a counter is utterly ridiculous.
Also, my archers do NOT have a strikeback against meleeunits who attack them, mistwalkers do. So especially in the lower chapters these units are way overpowered when measured agains the units a player can field
And was stated above, with their high movement rate they can stay out of range most of the time while killing off the player units

@Dony If your referring to the star rating (1-3) doesn't this already occur in provinces? You don't get level 3 troops they appear eventually which I assume is related to province and/or era which with chest locks kinda relate.

The basic level mist walker is appearing as normal in its provinces which is very hard for early towns. They could of course lower a level 1s power but but I can't see them putting entirely different troops in unless they did this for everyone.
I beg to differ. They managed to add an additional requirement to the rings, when the added the need for orcs to negotiate from ring 11 and up.
So they CAN influence things per ring. In that case it should be possible as well to tie some units to different rings, making sure that the overpowered units don't appear too early in the game.
Personally I've pretty much given up trying to fight in my low chapter cities when I see those mistwalkers. And I know of several newer players who feel the same. However, it pushes players to just negotiate no matter what and that takes away from the game
 
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Dony

King of Bugs
I encountered mistwalkers in chapter 1, so stating the ranger would be a counter is utterly ridiculous.
I think you have misunderstood me here, i didnt said that rangers are good against mist walkers in battle, i said that mist walker is "renamed" ranger for us, while others thinks its dryad.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I think you have misunderstood me here, i didnt said that rangers are good against mist walkers in battle, i said that mist walker is "renamed" ranger for us, while others thinks its dryad.
mist_n_dryads.png


Lets have no misunderstandings, mistwalker is the enemy counterpart of the dryad.
Left is the mistwalker, middle is the dryad and the right one is dryad II.
The fact that the mistwalker has 1 more walking range doesnt make him a ranger.

Just like the orc genaral is the evil counterpart of the orc warrior (tho I think there both evil but who cares)
 

Dony

King of Bugs
i am judging units based on their stats and not their visuals, they can look however you want