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Elvenar, now what?

DeletedUser1596

Guest
I want to continue to play for a long time and I do not mind spending my money but I want a little value for my hard earned monies. Not spend $70.00 and receive one premium building and one expansion....REALLY.....and in the end after spending that monies what do I really get? A few colored pixels on a monitor. Your product has gotten much too expensive for what you are offering us.

The price of these colored pixels does not come from their beauty. It comes from their power. Those buildings are usually about twice as powerful as nonpremium ones and they are meant for power-buyers to make their way up in a global ladder. And that's exactly how it should be, because those people run this game. If anyone things that "free to play" just happens, than no, it does not. Someone has to pay a horrible sum of money for the athers to play for free. Droping the prices of premium buildings would cut the income and that would be bad for everyone.
 

DeletedUser736

Guest
The price of these colored pixels does not come from their beauty. It comes from their power. Those buildings are usually about twice as powerful as nonpremium ones and they are meant for power-buyers to make their way up in a global ladder. And that's exactly how it should be, because those people run this game. If anyone things that "free to play" just happens, than no, it does not. Someone has to pay a horrible sum of money for the athers to play for free. Droping the prices of premium buildings would cut the income and that would be bad for everyone.
I am not saying you are wrong, but as I said, I play or played lots of other "free" game including games by Inno, and in every single "free" game I played, I always spent at least over 100$, and in the case of a particular one, I even went up in the 4 figures (over a thousand... In Euros, which, in my case ended up making it an even more "impressive" figure).

In a nutshell, I guess you could consider me being one of those player who usually make free games live. But I do not feel I would get my money's worth in Elvenar, which is the only reason I did'nt fall in the spending pattern I usually fall into when I play theses "free" games.

Maybe you are right, and things are not as overpriced as I think. Maybe it's just a problem of perception, but it is definitely here. I definitely feel like I would'nt get my money's worth if I compare this to other games I play or played in the past.

That being said, I'm not saying it's an urgent problem Inno must fix. If they are happy with their current income from the game and satisfied with their pricing so be it, I will continue to play the free version. Does not matter much to me.
 

DeletedUser1933

Guest
The price of these colored pixels does not come from their beauty. It comes from their power. Those buildings are usually about twice as powerful as nonpremium ones and they are meant for power-buyers to make their way up in a global ladder. And that's exactly how it should be, because those people run this game. If anyone things that "free to play" just happens, than no, it does not. Someone has to pay a horrible sum of money for the athers to play for free. Droping the prices of premium buildings would cut the income and that would be bad for everyone.

So spending MASSIVE sums of monies to get very little value is your idea of a well designed game....Brother I have a bridge for sale, and it's a great deal......:)

6000 = ONE EXPANSION......Insane

Over priced premium buildings and massively sized buildings are forcing this game into bankruptcy. Plain and simple the economic model of Elvenar has gotten utterly ridiculous.

Our game has gotten bloated.
Our game has gotten too complex.
Military building with little purpose.
Totally broken Trader.

ON and on and on.

Elvenar started out great until the developers decided to Constantly Balance things to their favor of course and to the detriment of it's paying customers. We live in a age of Amazon.com, walmart, alibaba.com where goods are shipped for free, quickly and quite inexpensive and easy to buy. But Innogames has taken a different tactic, make our game hideously expensive, a level of complexity that it has ruined the game, a fighting system beyond belief.....etc etc etc.

I am a businessman, I understand business principles, but driving away good paying customers is not good fiscal management. It is hard to get good paying customers, but to then drive them away is more than idiotic it is a economic model that will ruin this game like, Rising General, Karuga and Lagoonia.....3 failed games that had promise but they fell flat on their faces...

This game is 2 years old, not a new game anymore.....But looking at the new race it has gotten beyond bloated.......:(
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
I agree with @Treanty as well.
Especially the point about the communication is a hot item.
No copy/paste in messages is really not acceptable anymore. And the messages arent kept very long either. I wrote a short quick-guide for each of the guestraces for the newer members so they could prepare a bit, now they are already deleted. And it's not as if I have huge amounts of messages saved, but apparently its not only a very limited number one can save, they also automatically disappear after a while unless you keep bumping them. Good grief, then I prefer to have space for 100 messages indefinitely with a warning that I can't receive new ones if I don't delete some again. Now I have to type the whole stuff again.
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
I am not saying you are wrong, but as I said, I play or played lots of other "free" game including games by Inno, and in every single "free" game I played, I always spent at least over 100$, and in the case of a particular one, I even went up in the 4 figures (over a thousand... In Euros, which, in my case ended up making it an even more "impressive" figure).

In a nutshell, I guess you could consider me being one of those player who usually make free games live. But I do not feel I would get my money's worth in Elvenar, which is the only reason I did'nt fall in the spending pattern I usually fall into when I play theses "free" games.

Maybe you are right, and things are not as overpriced as I think. Maybe it's just a problem of perception, but it is definitely here. I definitely feel like I would'nt get my money's worth if I compare this to other games I play or played in the past.

That being said, I'm not saying it's an urgent problem Inno must fix. If they are happy with their current income from the game and satisfied with their pricing so be it, I will continue to play the free version. Does not matter much to me.


same here. I never had a problem paying for games, since I know developping costs money. And as long as I feel I get something worthwhile I'm fine with that. And yes, I too have spent my first 12-14 months on different servers, using premium functions and spent over 1000 euro on the game.
I quit paying after they messed up the battlesystem and left me out to dry. We're almost 6 months further ahead now and STILL NOTHING has been done for the players who are deemed to be too far out. Those players have pretty much been left to rot in a place where they cant advance.

And looking at the prices they charge now for things, its extremely unlikely I will start paying again. The prices are completely unrealistic for what is being offered.
 

DeletedUser1933

Guest
Innogames has lost touch with it's paying customers. Give them what they want and at a reasonable price. Not force them to take what is given them and then charge a fortune. If Walmart or Amazon started out that way they would be dead in the water.

When I first started Tribal Wars the battle map used to be huge encompassing a vast territory to fight in. But Tribal Wars is now a fraction of it's original Highly active size. Elvenar is the same but we now have a complicated game and getting more so as time goes by.

Customers want easy to use, fun, imaginative games to waste their money on. I enjoy paying and playing as long as I am not being gouged and getting almost nothing in return. I hate the mail and chat. It is totally useless. Fellowship communication is a disaster especially if the fellowship has a multi-national membership. In order to translate I am forced to rewrite their mail into google translator....Gets very tiring.

Almost every aspect of game is or has been ruined slowly over time. Functionality of some parts worked perfectly fine until yet again more changes....Perfect example is the Trader...The new system was supposed to fix the old one....Simplify it. make trading easier....But instead they broke it much worse than before, so basically they went backwards. When I trade I want to set the amount and hit enter, not over and over and over 60 times.....10 X 1000 Silk for 1000 gems....hit enter done.....
 

DeletedUser1657

Guest
I am not saying you are wrong, but as I said, I play or played lots of other "free" game including games by Inno, and in every single "free" game I played, I always spent at least over 100$, and in the case of a particular one, I even went up in the 4 figures (over a thousand... In Euros, which, in my case ended up making it an even more "impressive" figure).

And looking at the prices they charge now for things, its extremely unlikely I will start paying again. The prices are completely unrealistic for what is being offered.

One of the things I am hearing is there is a lack of low cost long lasting things to spend money on. In the past I spent money on expansions, less because I needed the space but more because I felt it was good value for money. Any culture building obsoletes in time and therefore to me is a poor purchase for my budget. The change in expansions priced me out of them leaving only MA and builder upgrades which are only mildly tempting and if I get super lucky I can get a handful of free diamonds to get 1 level and be set for "life".

I think if there was more low-cost options that lasted it would make a difference. One of the biggest thing people would likely pay for is customisations of their portraits/town so it has a level of uniqueness.
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
@Treanty
I've set up a suggestion about the trader here on beta earlier. Please feel free re respond to that with some more ideas. https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/more-trading-features.7249/#post-45154

I've also set up a suggestion about the ingame messages because I have encountered exactly the same problem
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...e-messages-accept-copy-paste.7363/#post-45843

@Mykan
Agreed. Some longer lasting low-budget features would be nice.
Before, I didn't even mind the premium buildings, though I bought them sparingly because it was obvious they would have to be sold again at some point. I was EXTREMELY annoyed when I noticed one gets nothing at all in return. I'd say that even if one got like 25% , or even 10% of the diamonds back, along with some supplies it would be much more likely I'd buy them more often. I've never played a game where one gets nothing in return for selling premium stuff, even if it only is a small amount.

Then along came the events. Those made me feel really ripped off. The event-buildings are not only free and relatively easy to get (though I tend to have bad luck getting them with the random factor), they also often outperform the paid-for premiumbuildings.
Don't get me wrong, I think the events and their rewards were a nice idea, but there is no balance at all in having free buildings outperfom the paid ones, except pissing off the players who did invest their hard-earned money that way.
 

Hugs

Active Member
@Dhurrin : Please keep your contributions constructive, like you've done before. Feedback is very valuable, also when it's not positive but being sarcastic brings us nowhere, thank you :)

Isn't it interesting... - when we are frustrated, and actually tell we are, then we get a sharp correction from community manager. When we change and try to be constructive.... - we get ..... no reaction at all...

So, the message I receive are: If you are kind and nice, and try to be constructive, you will be ignored. If you are more critical, you will be corrected.
- but, no "constructive contributions" or "constructive feedback" comes the other way...

Sad, because I actually hoped there would be a future with some nice game play for me in Elvenar... - if I was only allowed to play the game.
Seems that is not what Innogame intend me to be allowed to do. I will have to play a little bit, then wait until InnoGame figures out they will give me another bread crumb, then I can do a little bit, and then wait again.... - oh, and if I think I will be smart, and wait a bit longer, hoping to be allowed to do more.... FAIL... I can still only do a little bit before I need to wait again...
 

Dony

King of Bugs
no reaction at all.
you are not supposed to get reaction here, community manager is here to pass our feedback to developers, not to endlessly chat with players who ask same question for 2 years, if we as community stop giving constructive feedback in treads and just flaming here and there, then there is nothing to be passed to devs and that is the point where community manager appears
 

Marindor

Well-Known Member
you are not supposed to get reaction here, community manager is here to pass our feedback to developers, not to endlessly chat with players who ask same question for 2 years, if we as community stop giving constructive feedback in treads and just flaming here and there, then there is nothing to be passed to devs and that is the point where community manager appears

Indeed, you can be assured that we read all feedback and forward it, but we don't want to color it too much with our own thoughts because it should be your feedback, not ours. When you have direct questions, I'll try to answer them and when things are unclear, I will ask you for clarification but as long as what I read from you is clear (be it positive or negative), I'll not mingle too much in the conversation :)
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
you are not supposed to get reaction here, community manager is here to pass our feedback to developers, not to endlessly chat with players who ask same question for 2 years, if we as community stop giving constructive feedback in treads and just flaming here and there, then there is nothing to be passed to devs and that is the point where community manager appears

Oh, I agree that the community-managers shouldn't put up too much personal feedback (same goes for the forummods) and @Marindor is doing just that. I just happen not to agree with many of his points (or rather the companies points) most of the time. And that's because they often seem to solve something now, without looking 3 steps ahead to the results in a bit longer a time.

However, @Hugs does have a point in that much of the positive/constructive feedback is filed as 'sent on to the dev team' and then is never heard of again. Just SOME bits of regular info on that feedback would be appreciated. Even if it was something like:
'planned to be discussed in july 2017 for later implementation' or
'planned to be implemented in autumn 2017' (or spring 2018 for all I care) or
'planned to be refined, betaplayers will be sent a questionair for more input' or even
'rejected for now for lack of time/low priority/not fitting in the longterm strategy/whatever reason but will be looked at again at a later date' or just
'rejected because off...'

The problem is that constructive feedback from the community needs to get some constructive feedback from the company. And what we get is an earshattering silence. So its not exactly strange that people get acidic about that.
Even simple things, that don't need a lot of programming time just seem to disappear in a huge bottomless drawer marked 'forwarded to dev team'. But it doesn't mean anything because for all I know they could just wipe their asses with those ideas. Its not stated anywhere they actually do look at it, only that it has been forwarded.

And the other point is pretty much true as well...sarcasm gets one slapped down. Other stuff gets one infraction points awarded/temporarily banned/permanently banned. All fine and good, except that there doesn't seem to be any interest in, nor research into, what is the CAUSE for those reactions and the increasing amount of them.
Sure, negative feedback never is nice. And the tone in which it is delivered may not be either. But it's more important to try and take it to heart than preventing people from giving that feedback. If you only want to hear positive feedback and come down hard on everyone who gives negative feedback you will end up wallowing in your own stink, with only some cronies and slaves left to nod appreciatively, because the rest will be gone.

The company would do well to remember that the players giving negative feeedback do not do so to cut them down, or want to humiliate them, but because they see a game they invested much time, effort and money in take a road they do not want it to go, or foresee serious problems. If the company then goes on regardless, forcing their way heedlessly ahead, what do they expect? And some people who do take the time to give feedback will then be not so amused when they see their predictions come true AND get shushed over it afterwards.
 
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DeletedUser1657

Guest
The problem is that constructive feedback from the community needs to get some constructive feedback from the company. And what we get is an earshattering silence.

The thing I don't get is when I started over 18 months ago there was already a culture of acidity among the payer base on the forums. Something I never really got. I had just come from another game I had played for 7 years and the company treated its players much worse in many ways (far less responses, poor support, completely re-wrote the entire game), yet their player base was generally more civil.

That culture has become more in-grained since then. A lot of changes are a reason for that but they aren't necessarily bad changes, in fact I have come to appreciate a number of them in time, MA for example. One of the saddest things I am noticing from my perspective is the acidic culture is shooting ourselves as players in the foot. I know of people who won't send their fellowship members to the forums as they quit once they read all the negativity. I also notice that fellowships who get upset at changes tend to lose a lot of players at those times while others that try to adapt have much less to no turnover. We then wonder why there are more empty towns in the map. I am not saying people don't have a right to be upset or express that, as they do. But we also need to recognise we are not blameless for our own negative impact on the game, something we as a player base have more control over than what the devs do.

Some of the threads you have started Dhurrin have some very civilized discussions which I think is a great step towards a different approach from the player base as the concerns and frustrations are still expressed but with generally less acidity then I have seen in other places.

The company would do well to remember that the players giving negative feeedback do not do so to cut them down, or want to humiliate them, but because they see a game they invested much time, effort and money in take a road they do not want it to go, or foresee serious problems. If the company then goes on regardless, forcing their way heedlessly ahead, what do they expect? And some people who do take the time to give feedback will then be not so amused when they see their predictions come true AND get shushed over it afterwards.

I am sure the devs recognise this already. While normally a small minority for most updates that have caused a lot of complaints there are often players who have being able to see closer to what the devs see and being ok with things. There are many different perspectives in this world and while the devs have not always being willing to change theirs I regularly feel it is because as a players base we often write off their perspective and want to replace it with our own. Rather than accepting it and trying to either work with it or identify where it is flawed (can be hard to do without the analytical data) or identify alternative ways to address the same problems we tend to be dismissive. I constantly see us as a player base attack the devs for being blind and not listening but do we as a player base not do exactly the same things to them?
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
@Mykan
*grins*...blame it on the youth, or the educational system. I kinda blame the cultural influence of the internet/pc/smartphone. Fact is, over the years the people in general have lost the ability to focus and concentrate and have definitely lost any sense of patience.
And I know it is affecting me too.

But to start with your last remark, I'm not sure. I think I'm not turning a a blind eye to the dev-team. I really, really, from the depth of my heart feel there is a very deep gap between defs and players and that has a lot to do with a decided lack of information/communication.

Let me give an example by using the latest releasenotes:

  • The AI for battle has received a major update and should now be a lot smarter in battles. This will affect the enemy units, but of course also your own when you use auto-fight to complete a battle.
This was followed by:
  • In order to improve your chances on the battlefield in especially the earlier chapters, we will give your units more power on their first and second level. This will be done by moving the attack and defense bonuses to the previous level. That means that on the first and second levels of the unit, the attack and defense bonuses will be higher than before. The third level of the unit then unlocks a unit's (extra) ability, but does not increase the attack and defense bonus again. So, the third level of the unit remains unchanged, while the first and second level's strength are increased.

This is nice, but it doesn's say much. And yes, the AI definitely got smarter. Problem is, that makes battles much harder since our troops are always outnumbered.
Also, once again, players who already are 'too far out' or at least far enough advanced are being ignored, since the 3rd lvl troops arent getting any improvements, but players are still going to face a smarter AI.
The 'balancing' that was done before was based on an AI with a certain performance. To counter the players better playing abilities the opponents pretty much got larger squads and more of them. Now though the AI has gotten smarter they still have that advantage, that should be rebalanced as well.

(As a couple of remarks :
1 - I feel that the AI on the opposing side is acting much, much smarter than the one on my side. Trying to do autobattle with ranged units against heavy melee, my ranged units try to stay out of range of their target, completely ignoring other units and getting slaughtered because of it
2 - Having gotten 150 squads to start sounds nice, but having to face mistwalkers in chapter 1 is ridiculous. 1 or 2 large squads of mistwalkers eliminate any 5 squads the player can bring into the field.
3 - overall, in the worlds where I still am in the GZ zone I've noticed that my losses have hugely increased when autobattling. IF the AI was raised on both sides that should not be the case. So I'm wondering what's causing that.)
  • Several questgiver portraits have received a graphical improvement.
I'm sure that's nice. Like the atmospheric haze was no doubt a nice idea. But those are things nobody asked for and only interesting at the fringe at best, while there are tons of ideas and suggestions that have been laying around for half a year or more and do not get adressed.
Also, no citybuilding stuff again in this update. Or the previous one. Or the one before that. Or the one before that one.

Personally I am getting really sick of the battlestuff. And many other players too. And all that is communicated is an empty word 'balance' which is never explained, never balanced towards the player and without any kind of glimpse into what the goal is.

I know I have said people are less patient, but I have been waiting for 6 months now to see something positive and haven't seen it yet. That's long enough I think, so yes, my patience is pretty much gone and that will be reflected in my posts.
 
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DeletedUser1933

Guest
Indeed, you can be assured that we read all feedback and forward it, but we don't want to color it too much with our own thoughts because it should be your feedback, not ours. When you have direct questions, I'll try to answer them and when things are unclear, I will ask you for clarification but as long as what I read from you is clear (be it positive or negative), I'll not mingle too much in the conversation :)

Simply put and well said. Too bad the developers are not listening or paying any attention, because if they were this game would be vastly different. The developers say one thing then do the exact polar opposite. The developers tell us we should develop our own style of play then they FORCE us to play there way. It is their hand on the steering wheel making us believe we can play our way. Classic example is forcing players to join dysfunctional uncommunicative fellowships. Why uncommunicative, because the total communication system is a nightmare, stupid and ill designed. So forcing players to join fellowships is not allowing us much freedom to play our own particular style of play. It is do this or else...

I do not believe for a micro-second the Developer team is paying any attention. They have their own agenda and ignore 95% of our suggestions.
 

Hugs

Active Member
Sure, negative feedback never is nice.

But, honestly, it is MUCH better that we actually give feedback, even when it is bad. It means that we are engaged and interested in the game. Even if it might feel nicer for the receiver, leaving no feedback, and only leave the game for something else we find more attractive should be regarded as worse. Hate and love are two feelings that are actually close to each other. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. As long as we take the effort to give feedback, we are not indifferent. We offer the ability to be won over to the loving side. It might take effort to do so, but way less effort than winning us over were we indifferent.

And, the way to win us, is mostly to get a feeling that we are being heard, and taken serious, and maybe get some feedback from the company on what they are thinking. Not the direct feedback that a community manager can give, but, feedback from the devs everything is said to be forwarded to. If they feel that there is something wrong with our suggestions, or that there needs another approach to make it good, we will gladly hear about it and discuss it. Everyone knows that the good solutions does not normally come at first try, but when it has been approached by questioning and discussion and maybe tossed up a few times.

-------------------------------------
Some times I have started wondering: what kind of game is this actually meant to be? It's called a Fantasy City Builder... - and while we do work on building a city, most of my game time is spent on waiting... - waiting for 5 minutes, 15 minutes, 1 hour, 3 hours or 9 hours or even more, until I have gotten something I can work a bit with... - but, unfortunately what I manage to do before there is more waiting, is actually quite little. Only thing I can do that really takes some time is to visit my neighbors, and give them some help, but, the main part of the time it takes are to have my screen load with information enough for me to do one action, before I try to move on to the next city, which also takes time because of loading screen issues.... - is that what is meant to be the main entertaining game experience?
 

Dony

King of Bugs
IF the AI was raised on both sides that should not be the case. So I'm wondering what's causing that.
thats wrong statement, i explained in another thread
i personally really love whole combat redesign, i love challenge it gives me, i am even sharing last round of tournament on this forums every week with youtube video, the map i cant manage to win i just post on the forums for other opinions, maybe i overlooked something, but thats minority

i am still saying this game is on the start and young, from a long perspective when we will get all lvl 3 units and upgraded AWs it would become extremely easy even on autocombat and that would require another balance redesign if they overbuff our units now or overnerf enemy units

is that what is meant to be the main entertaining game experience?
yes this is a definition of free to play game, if you dont like waiting this type of game is not meant for you
 

DeletedUser1933

Guest
Negative feedback is nice because it says volumes about a product. Negative feedback or any feedback is necessary in an imperfect world. If we never said anything and simply disappeared in disgust even our silence would speak volumes to the bottom line of INNOGAMES and it's massive overhead. I WANT to give them my money but also want a reasonable deal for that money. Since I stopped paying to play I have dropped massively in point rankings....no big deal....But my enjoyment has also dropped, only thing keeping me here is the vague hope that INNO will get it's butt together and improve our gaming experience.

>>>One huge huge huge change would be to fix the mail and chat. Make it BB CODE friendly. Inno has gone out of it's way to try and make each game different, but have forgotten the very basics. COMMUNICATION is vital in any fellowship. Most if not all fellowships are dead in the water because of loading issues and ill conceived gaming code.

>>>Individualize our cities and our player profiles....The avatars are stale old and of little use. Allow us to design our own, the technology is available. Customization of our city backgrounds would be most excellent, I could spend many hours intricately designing a very pretty city so others can marvel at my designing skills.

>>>City designing tools....Move and sell...THAT'S IT....:(, we should be able to design, rotate and have much more city designing tools than that.
This is a city building game so where is our tool chest to be able to? A building parking site to temporarily park a few bigger buildings to allow us to move buildings around better. Even Forge of Empires is better but not by much.

No...Inno is not listening or paying any attention. Our words are falling of deaf ears and being deposited in their waste receptacles. After all who are we, just the paying customer, what rights do we have?

One right....stop buying over priced, too large, ill conceived merchandise with little functionality.
 

Marindor

Well-Known Member
Hi guys,

Just wanted to emphasize once more (though I feel like it's for the umphteenth time :p) that all feedback is welcome and valuable, both positive and negative. We have received a lot of negative feedback and have never had any problems with that. What is important though, is whether or not it is really constructive feedback, or just ranting without contributing. As our forum rules also prescribe:

2. Be polite and constructive

Saying things like "I hate the new Wholesaler for this and this reason" is valuable and constructive, because you explain why you think something is bad and we can forward these concerns for reconsideration, so we're happy when we receive such feedback. Saying things like "The devs are morons, they're not listening to us, they just want to steal our money, I'm gonna quit, this game is ruined, blabla" isn't constructive at all. It's just ranting, asking for negative attention and it isn't helpful in any way. Of course it's an indication that you're frustrated about something but still we're all grown ups (or most of us are :p) and should be able to get into a conversation with each other on a more sophisticated level than that, even when we're frustrated. We accomplish much more by explaining why things aren't appreciated and how we would like to see it differently, than by just making sarcastic remarks and bashing our game designers. So once again: It has never been about whether feedback is positive or negative, because both are appreciated, as long as it's delivered in a polite and constructive way :)

About the suggestion to give feedback on proposed ideas: This would indeed be an ideal situation, but often not realistic for us for a lot of ideas are considered, being put on the shelf and may be implemented (or partly used) in later game changes/features but it is by far not always clear what exactly will be done with the idea at the moment it's handed in. It can sometimes even take years before it's the right time to implement or use an already proposed idea. When an idea is really rejected however, we will let you know in the corresponding thread but as long as you don't hear from us in there, you can still consider the idea/suggestion to be under consideration.
 
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