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Discussion [Discussion] Release Notes version 1.4 + Tournaments

DeletedUser118

Guest
But with four hours of difference it would also mean, if you don't have the possibility to start playing earlier than on the first day (job and so on), you will loose 4 hours and I'm not sure if you can make it like that to the last level.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Thanks Muf-Muf. :)

I would like to ask a simple question which hopefully gets a simple answer too: Why is the time between two rounds of the tournament 20 hours and not 24 hours?

What's wrong with a 1 hour timer? What's wrong with no timer? We only get one Tournament a week, anyway, so where is the compelling need for additional waiting? What problem would it cause it I had a free evening and wanted to do all my Tournament fighting one night, so I could just do basic tasks (or none) on other evenings - especially Friday or Saturday evenings.

It doesn't negatively impact our game - nor any strategy - for there to be no timers. It just cuts into the "wait or pay" strategy.

If they feel it's important for us to commit to one level or another, we could be required to "close" Level 1 play in order to progress to Level 2 play, and so on.
 

DeletedUser1231

Guest
Actually I shall find that well to remove this time constraint (20 hours or any other duration) between the levels of the tournament.
And if I finished 6 levels of all my available provinces one an evening (it will not be easy but let us imagine) and well I shall have to wait next week for the opening of the new tournament.

What pleases me in this game it is the freedom of the time of game that we have and the tournament brings us a constraint of schedule to connect, to remove this constraint shall remove nothing from the interest of the tournament and shall give us more pleasure (and less frustration) to participate in the tournament.
 

DeletedUser118

Guest
Well, the question with this is: If you have alot of provinces to do before you reach next level, will it be that much shorter than if you get a new level every 20 hours? The first levels might be pretty easy but as far as I could see, the later levels sure can be tough regarding your opponents.

Also, as far as I read from players as well as officials it seems to me like its not really wanted for players without using diamonds to reach level 6. So Inno would have to give up that. Do they really wanna do that? I doubt so.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I understand the reasoning behind the timers, and I agree with crazywizard, that the reason it is 20 hours, is to allow players to do some provinces.

The issue, is that this is not enough time, because fighting takes time, and because of all the different time zones.
Look at the EN server, where I play. In my Fellowship there, we have players from US, Canada, Ireland, Uk, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, just to mention a few. These players are all in very different time zones. While some of us are active playing, others are asleep as it is the middle of the night for them. Now, Inno cannot obviously have tournaments starting at different times for each player, to suit all time zones, it isn't feasible.

But, if the timers were more forgiving, like 10 hours, or even 12 hours, the players that will be asleep at the time the tournament starts, would still have plenty of time to participate and reach most of the levels if they choose so. Now, they will start so behind, they have no chance to catch up, and they are unlikely to reach level 5 ( not even mentioning the level 6 that no one can reach without spending diamonds at this point).

Now you can say, but with a 10h timer the players will be able to do a lot more levels, because they won't have that barrier anymore. But, I think you are not taking into account that the tournament is actually very cleverly design to prevent players from doing too much.
Because there is another roadblock, much more efficient in stoping players, that the timers. And that roadblock is resources.
It takes a ton of troops and/or goods to do a lot of provinces. A very good fighter in my FS here in beta has spent over 2k sorcerors already, not to mention other troops, in only 2 weeks. And he fights well, and did a good portion of the fights manually, or the losses would have been much bigger.
Considering how slow the barracks are ( level 19 barracks take 3h55 to train 53 sorcs, max squad is 72), there is no way anyone will be able to train sufficient troops to go all out every week. The only reason players have been able to do much now is because of all the stockpiled troops they had, but those are getting depleted fast. Even if they abstain from doing provinces in the normal map, and save all their troops for the week the tournament is targeting their boost, they will still won't be able to train enough troops to do all open provinces up to level 5.
The amount of goods needed to cater are staggering as well, so we are limited in the amount of provinces we can cater as well, before we run out of goods, because once again, even the most developed city cannot produce enough goods to sustain catering a high level of provinces week in week out.

This is even more true for players that are not so advanced, because those have an additional roadblock, the amount of open provinces they have in the map. and since their cities will be smaller, they will produce less troops and less goods, which will naturally limit the amount of provinces and levels they can do.

TLDR: All of this to say, we don't need to timers as constrains, the tournament works without them fine, players will still be limited in what they can achieve because they cannot produce enough resources ( goods or troops), to fully do all the provinces/levels every week. The timers only penalise players playing in different time zones, making it much harder for them to feel they have a chance at success and fully participation in the tournament. As such, they should be removed, or at least shortened. That way Inno can still earn revenue from impatient players spending diamonds to overcome the timers, but the rest of the players will have a fair chance at reaching more levels as well.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
What's wrong with a 1 hour timer? What's wrong with no timer? We only get one Tournament a week, anyway, so where is the compelling need for additional waiting? What problem would it cause it I had a free evening and wanted to do all my Tournament fighting one night, so I could just do basic tasks (or none) on other evenings - especially Friday or Saturday evenings.

It doesn't negatively impact our game - nor any strategy - for there to be no timers. It just cuts into the "wait or pay" strategy.

If they feel it's important for us to commit to one level or another, we could be required to "close" Level 1 play in order to progress to Level 2 play, and so on.

You cant have no timer the way it's designed right now,
1`. there are to many goods on stock by some people priraling the rewards out of control (I already feel it's to much and out of control like the way its now btw)
2. a bug could have serious repercussions, if a bug occurs in the battle or in the payoff part, the game could literally be finished in a single hour. or even break the game in it's entirely. (database interger overflow for example due a trillion relics generation)

It could have no timer, but in that case the entire system need to be rebuild from scatch to keep control over the system.
 

DeletedUser629

Guest
You cant have no timer the way it's designed right now,
1`. there are to many goods on stock by some people priraling the rewards out of control (I already feel it's to much and out of control like the way its now btw)
2. a bug could have serious repercussions, if a bug occurs in the battle or in the payoff part, the game could literally be finished in a single hour. or even break the game in it's entirely. (database interger overflow for example due a trillion relics generation)

It could have no timer, but in that case the entire system need to be rebuild from scatch to keep control over the system.

Well, a player can only compete in discovered provinces, so no timer would not make the system explode i think. However, i do feel the rewards should be decreased if the timer is removed, and since there are ranking points to win, there should be different tournaments for each chapter. A player who has just researched the tournaments will have a lot less goods to cater encounters, a smaller army, and only a few discovered provinces. Getting to the top spots in the current situation can be pretty hard for them.
 

DeletedUser651

Guest
If rewards are decreased, then it would be great to balance this out by going back to the easier fighting and the cheaper provinces. There isn't anything wrong with giving people something to do without stopping the rest of the game. I think tournaments tie the whole game together...as long as people can do them.

Sure, a few of the best fighters in this game are finding the fights easy, but the majority of players don't ever do any fighting because they find it too hard. Easy fights give them a chance to learn. If more of the game is opened up to them, more people might stick around the game longer.

I have heard that enemies may be way out of line though. Is it true that the newbies are facing sorceresses and granite golems with only the beginning troops? The enemies have to match the regular enemies you face based on whatever level you are on.

And those timers have to stop. Even though we are on different servers, we still are a global game. If the tournaments start at 8pm that is 3 am somewhere.


Crazy Wizard...I had no chance to get to level 5 because of the time zone I am in. Just fyi. The first day started an hour before I normally wake up. Day two started four hours earlier than that. These types of issues will always be true as long as the timer is here. No matter what, some customers will be blocked out.

Oh, and I heard that there were no kp rewards or runes for a lot of the provinces on level 5. Is that true?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Oh, and I heard that there were no kp rewards or runes for a lot of the provinces on level 5. Is that true?

My first 4 provinces on level 5 gave no KPs or rune shards, the only reward was steel relics and points. Since it wasn't my boost, and i knew i wouldn't be able to open level 6 anyway, I ended up not bothering to do them for that reason.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Every aspect of the game needs to incorporate some diamond marketing - that's a given, since we all want Inno to continue to support the game.

What are our suggestions for the Tournament? How could Inno simultaneously achieve diamond purchases and overall player satisfaction with regard to Tournaments?

Is is possible for them to strike a balance, where very avid players can win Rune shards and other rewards through sheer amount of play time, while players with less game time are okay with purchasing diamonds to win the same rewards?

Right now we're seeing the leader boards given over to diamond players, without exception. Is this the future model for all of Elvenar - including Tournaments?

Are there other games we can compare ? (stick with browser -based games, so Katwijk will agree to parity)
 

DeletedUser867

Guest
What are our suggestions for the Tournament?
This one's actually too easy. Reviving troops, which can only happen with diamonds immediately after a battle, is a major mousetrap. Folks will run out of Treants, for example, while they still have "just a few" encounters left, so they'll revive their Treants.

If you get anywhere close to an FoE combat engine discussion, FoE has a Rogue unit that will convert to one of your other units when it's killed. If somebody has 2 Heavy Units + 6 Rogues + a Credit Card that won't melt, they're practically impossible to stop. (Rouges are overpowdered, btw :D)

I truly hope we don't get Rogues, but in my view the Tournaments will still be a major money maker. Folks will reach the end of their current chapter, and they'll need "just a few more sectors" to open the Advanced Scouting chest for access to the next chapter. So they'll do the Tournaments PLUS a couple of new sectors. You can't really fight effectively in new sectors UNTIL you have the most recent units, but by then you won't need the Knowledge Points for your tech tree so your Ancient Wonders will get great gobs of KPs.

Revive.png
While you CAN easily open the Advanced Scouting chests
if you're patient and take the time to train enough troops and/or manufacture enough goods,
straight up reviving troops GETS YOU through the bottleneck very quickly,
and allows you to go back to the "beginning of a chapter" game that you may prefer.

Once they're into the new chapter, the Ancient Wonder Knowledge Points will immediately dry up. Folks will still be wanting to train at least enough troops for the easier tournaments, whereby they'll get a few more KPs to throw into their tech tree, so the temptation to revive troops will be ever present.
 
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DeletedUser1231

Guest
My first 4 provinces on level 5 gave no KPs or rune shards, the only reward was steel relics and points. Since it wasn't my boost, and i knew i wouldn't be able to open level 6 anyway, I ended up not bothering to do them for that reason.
I confirm and I have too to stop after 3 provinces for the same reasons. The level 5 serves only for those who play the classification of the tournament.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I agree with Katwijk, revival of troops will bring in a lot of revenue for Inno, because after the first few weeks players will have spent the troops they had stockpiled and they will be restricted to the amount of troops the barracks can produce. As we all know, the barracks are way too slow, so the only way to do a lot of battles will be by unit revival.
Even players that don't fight and will cater their provinces in the tournaments will be tempted to spend money, as they will want to increase production of goods in order to do so, and for that, they will end up buying premium buildings like the snail.
As such, I believe the tournaments will remain a good source of income, even if the timers are reduced.

Well, a player can only compete in discovered provinces, so no timer would not make the system explode i think. However, i do feel the rewards should be decreased if the timer is removed, and since there are ranking points to win, there should be different tournaments for each chapter. A player who has just researched the tournaments will have a lot less goods to cater encounters, a smaller army, and only a few discovered provinces. Getting to the top spots in the current situation can be pretty hard for them.

I totally agree with Goryn here regarding how hard it is to a low/medium player to compete in the tournament. I don't know however, how feasible it would be from a technical point of view, to have different tournaments for each chapter, especially considering that one player could move on to the next chapter at any time during the tournament. Does he then compete in two tournaments?

Also, there is a danger with the suggestion that the rewards be decreased. At the moment, with the current rewards, the tournament is really only worth it for very advanced players. Very advanced players, for the purpose of this discussion, are players that are already at least mid fairies, had months of wait between fairies and dwarves, in which to stock on troops and goods, and have scouting times that take longer than 2 days. For these players, the tournaments are worth it, even when its not their boost, because of the value of the kps, because they can only do 1 province on the map every 2 or 3 days, which means they have time to renew their army, or goods, with spare to invest in the tournament.

However, a lower level player doesn't have such a stockpile of troops and goods, and their scouting time is a lot less, so they are probably just keeping up with the scout, and they might even be struggling to keep up with it. In this case, these players will have to choose between using their resources to do normal provinces or to do the tournament. So they will most likely look at the rewards they get from doing both and decide which one is more worthwhile. Lets takes a look:

NORMAL MAP PROVINCES:

- Per encounter: 1 kp, 1 relic, score points.
- Per province: (8kps, 8 relics, score points, 1 rune shard, contribution towards getting 1 expansion)
Doing provinces on the map also allows you to advanced in it, discovering more neighbours to do NH and trade with.

TOURNAMENTS:

- Per encounter: tournament points only. these tournaments points are useless unless you finish the tournament in the top 100, which is unlikely to happen to a less advanced player, so they are useless.
- Per province: there are different rewards depending on the level of the provinces, and they seem to be all over the place sometimes on the same level and between different players, but after 2 tournaments there is a pattern we can identity:
At the first level, most provinces give 2 kps and relics, with just a few of them giving 4 kps. these rewards increase with the province levels, up to 6 kps/6 relics at the higher levels (has anyone gotten more than 6 kps?), and a chance of getting a rune shard from level 3 upwards. Note, if you get a rune shard you don't get kps and relics.

Now, if you compare the rewards, you will see that if you have to choose between the map and the tournaments, the rewards for the tournaments pale in comparison with the rewards from doing the normal provinces, so reducing them further will only accentuate this, and remove any incentive for players to participate at all. As it is, low/medium level players are better off only doing tournaments when its their boost week and even then sparingly so they can keep up with their scout.

As Katwijk pointed out, there are other sources of revenue in the tournaments for Inno, the timers don't have to be one of them. they should be reduced to encourage players to participate, the rewards should be kept the same, and even buffed in some cases ( level 5 i'm looking at you), as there are enough blocking mechanisms to prevent players from overachieving in the long term. Yes, short term very advanced players will be able to do a lot in the first few tournaments, using all their stocked goods and troops, but there is no way to prevent that anyway, and the tournaments mechanism need to work long term, and not just in the first few weeks. After a few weeks even those advanced players will have depleted their stocks and will have to slow down. I bet by the time we reach T3 weeks at the most, players will have depleted most of those resources.

Tournaments should be a source of active play for all players, not just the advanced ones, and they need to attractive enough for players to want to do them regularly, otherwise, after the first round, and when the novelty wears off, they will most likely end up being abandoned.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
If rewards are decreased, then it would be great to balance this out by going back to the easier fighting and the cheaper provinces. There isn't anything wrong with giving people something to do without stopping the rest of the game. I think tournaments tie the whole game together...as long as people can do them.

Sure, a few of the best fighters in this game are finding the fights easy, but the majority of players don't ever do any fighting because they find it too hard. Easy fights give them a chance to learn. If more of the game is opened up to them, more people might stick around the game longer.

I have heard that enemies may be way out of line though. Is it true that the newbies are facing sorceresses and granite golems with only the beginning troops? The enemies have to match the regular enemies you face based on whatever level you are on.

And those timers have to stop. Even though we are on different servers, we still are a global game. If the tournaments start at 8pm that is 3 am somewhere.


Crazy Wizard...I had no chance to get to level 5 because of the time zone I am in. Just fyi. The first day started an hour before I normally wake up. Day two started four hours earlier than that. These types of issues will always be true as long as the timer is here. No matter what, some customers will be blocked out.

Oh, and I heard that there were no kp rewards or runes for a lot of the provinces on level 5. Is that true?

I made a bug post about the insane battles newbies face so yes it's true.
Level 4 had only tournament points

Level 5 had 6 relics and no KP, at least for me.

from head first battle kp + 1 relic, 2nd 2 KP + 2 relics, 3rd 4 relics, 4th nothing, 5th 6 relics.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
So, apart from some bug fixes, there seems like there was nothing changed with the tournaments this week.

Does this mean we are done? The tournaments are going to be deployed live as they are? If so, when?

Is there even any point in keep giving feedback at this point, or we might as well forget it?

I would be grateful for any answer to these questions, thank you
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Thank you Muf Muf for the reply. Can you tell us if the current release plan is for the tournaments to be deployed globally next week or are we looking at more time than that?

thanks
 
Hopefully soon, but it's too soon to say at this point. Once the Tournaments will be released globally, you can be sure to find announcements for it on the various languages' forums. :)
 

Jixel

Well-Known Member
I hate to be "that player" but ... it's now 6 weeks after Fairies launched, and there's still two techs that have to be researched on one branch of the tech tree, but provide exactly 0 benefits to players.

Can we please have an ETA for the Mercenary Camp, Blossom Mage & Drone Rider ?

Especially as combat has gained focus with the tournaments, it's important (to me, at least) to be able to "shake out" these units in battle and find out their strenghts and weaknesses. Can we at least have the unit stats ? Please ?
 
We don't currently have an ETA on the Fairy Units, unfortunately. Once we know more we'll share that, of course - we're very much looking forward to seeing them ingame ourselves as well. :)
 
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