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Discussion [Discussion] Release Notes version 1.17

DeletedUser651

Guest
While you might not need the Elixir yourself, others might. You can always trade it for the lower-tier goods, too.

As Mykan said, these kinds of trades are banned by many because these trades are very bad for goods balances. We figured that out quickly. As soon as the first person thought he would be cute and just produce tier three goods and trade for tier one, the rest of the fellowships quickly discovers that everyone will suffer. Anyone seeing these kinds of trade figuratively spits on them. You think you have a problem with game balance? The worlds would begin to see shortages of tier one goods if people hadn't figured this out by now.

There are whole threads where people demand to know why anyone would be so selfish and horrible as to put up cross tier trades. Some players have even suggested they be banned (though I highly disagree with this....even a bad choice is a choice and I HATE reducing options).

Let me explain why these cross tier goods trades are so bad:

I will use the factories available in Fairies as an example.

In 20 squares of prime real estate (this is a city builder game and space is the highest commodity)
I can make 79.5 gems per square in a 3 hour period (1595 gems/20 squares of space).
That means I can make the trading equivalent of 1272 planks per square (because gems are traded at 16 to 1 because of the COST of the gems to produce.)
However, the same level plank factory can only produce 130.375 planks per square. (1043 planks/8 squares of space).


Or put another way. It takes 20 spaces to produce 1595 gems which is 25520 planks. But it takes 195 spaces to produce the 25520 planks. This is why the whole world quickly finds out that cross tier trades are really bad for them, though they may not know the math. (obviously these exact numbers change level by level, and good by good, but the concept remains the same).

You can mess with the ratios of trading, but then you will throw the cost of production into imbalance because currently the COST of production IS in balance.


Not to mention the time it takes with all the slow animations and loading times

Especially during the tournaments. The animations slow to a crawl, even with the battle animations set to low. It took me about an hour to get through 2 provinces. The animations just make the game run like sludge.
 
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DeletedUser1576

Guest
Why on earth did you kill off one thing that worked, the wholesaler. Unbelieveble what you put in place. I'm just going to let my coins rot in the houses, no use buying stuff anymore.
 

DeletedUser118

Guest
I think the biggest problem is that most of us dunno anymore where to go with our Supplies and Coins once they reach maximum. Sure you can still buy goods with that, but who knows if you ever get them traded to what you need? Before I could decide on my own if I wanted to exchange Supplies and Coins for something. Now I need to make sure I can trade it for something ppl want, which is not always guaranteed. This whole thing is just nonsense! You again "fixed" something that never needed any fix at all, making everyone mad about your decisions.
 

DeletedUser1721

Guest
Yet the Wholesaler always had a 5:1 ratio - since the very start of Elvenar. You are absolutely right, though: the Wholesaler was always meant as a last resort, and instead it turned into the "no-brainer go-to response". This had a direct effect on trading between players and that is something we're trying to solve with this change.
I've not had this problem on beta so much, but on one of my non beta worlds, even after the world map move, I finally had to resort to buying scrolls from the wholesaler to finish a research tree item because I finished putting KP into it, I couldn't work on anything else until I finished that research, and in several days of posting crystals for scrolls trades, none of my neighbors or fellowship members accepted the trades. With this new update, if the wholesaler isn't selling them, I would've been stuck for days, waiting for either someone to accept my trades, or for the ability to buy sufficient scrolls from the wholesaler (how many wholesaler offering this deal would I have had to wait for to obtain 400 scrolls? No idea). That is brutally unfair.

The devs apparently want us to stop scouting constantly. At the same time, they're taking away the existing gold sink that was available. What are we supposed to spend our excess coins and supplies on?
 

Jixel

Well-Known Member
The reduction of the Sorceresses range is part of the new battle system. You can still win fights with auto battle, but not as much as before. We've created a great looking battlefield for people to enjoy fighting. If all players do is fight automatically because it's easier and less time consuming, we wouldn't have had to create the battlefield to begin with. New units were added to make battles more diverse and challenging, and overall, more enjoyable.

Reality check: I work full-time. I have two small children. I have other interests beyond sitting and battling on Elvenar in the little free time I have each day.
Sometimes, I feel like doing something clicky and interactive, and then I'll drive a battle manually.
But most of the time, and especially in tournaments, I simply do not have time in my life to do that, and if I can't auto-fight, I simply can't participate.
I'm not here to admire the pretty battle-field, battles are a means to an end, either gaining expansions (although that's no longer an option in three of my worlds, apparently I've exceeded your expectations there), or gaining relics and the occasional rune shard from tournaments.
Auto-fight needs to be a viable option, otherwise I'll give up and go catch more Pokemon or play Civ VI or something :)
 

Jaxom

Well-Known Member
The new wholesaler is horrible. I cannot see any instances in which I would use it. I would rather just post trades and hope that they get taken rather than use the new thing. I too have a constant excess of coins, forced upon me by population and no way to advance through the stupid orcs. I will not buy diamonds to accelerate advancement so I have to spend coins on something. Now you have taken that away.

If the problem is that you added a wonder that hurts the wholesaler then fix the wonder.

Just a few more 'improvements' like this one and I will be quitting in all three worlds. I'll go back to playing solitaire. At least ther ethe rules don't change every week.
 

lika1961

Well-Known Member
The old Wholesaler took away a lot of the potential of trading with other players, and we want players to trade more with each other and interact that way.

What rubbish! I play in 6 fellowships and in every one of those we trade a lot. In case you need reminding, we all have different boosted goods and therefore can't generate enough goods without trading. If you were to rely on the wholesaler, your city would last about 5 minutes.

The reality is you have never made an effort to develop things like an alternative use for supplies. To keep a city in balance, you need a certain number of workshops which produce supplies. Since the battle system has been messed up, less supplies are used for training, so now we have an excess. Clearly this was not anticipated. Big surprise. You make battle unattractive and people stop fighting. Ooh, now we have too many supplies being generated. And those neighbour visits that we encourage generate more of the pesky supplies since we encourage people to upgrade their Main Halls to higher levels which means they earn more supplies for visiting neighbours and fellows. Lets change the wholesaler. The lack of logic is astounding!

The biggest problem with the wholesaler is not the ratio, it is the fact that you decide what I want and how I must pay for it. So, if I have an excess of supplies, I must buy silk. Why? I don't need silk. How does this help me? And now the price goes up every time you buy. Really? To me the wholesaler has always been a very small part of the game - purely used to get rid of excess supplies and in the process get some of the goods that are not easily traded. That is all. It is the ONLY place where you can get rid of excess supplies.

You keep blabbing about things being "in balance", yet at every turn you make great efforts to mess with that balance. The thing that irritates me the most is the rubbish reasoning that is used to justify bad decisions. People were allowed to grow their cities to a point that you did not anticipate and instead of admitting this, we have been given an ever growing list of pathetic reasons for bad decisions. And constant changes that don't bring anything good to the game.

Mostly you seem to under-estimate our intelligence. Do we have big cities because we are stupid? I think not. We have played the game within the allowed parameters only to find things being taken away daily to accommodate lack of foresight. It seems like a case of lets change things and then see how the players react and make superficial changes if they freak out too much. Really?

Remember, players are customers. If you want people to keep buying, you need to give them something to come back for. And right now there is very little that makes me excited about this game.
 

DeletedUser1767

Guest
I have multiple ideas, but on reflection I realised that they all had a lot of principles in common, so I thought maybe it would be more useful to set some of those out so other people can improve on and add to them before trying to produce specific proposals.

1) Give us other things to do with our coins and supplies. Most of us use the Wholesaler primarily to offload our excess, because there's nothing else for us to do with it but scout and buy KP, both of which have obvious limitations. We already needed more things to do with our surplus, but now we need them more.

2) Restore the first page to (more or less) the way it was before the change. The only people who would regularly buy small amounts of Tier I goods are very new players who haven't found trading partners and/or don't have enough goods to make many trades with. For people in those positions, this is essential to get them on their feet. You could alter the concept slightly so that each purchase slightly increases the costs, but seriously, the old first page was vital for a lot of new cities. People with larger cities who are trying to unload excess are aiming to spend larger chunks of change for more goods; they're unlikely to use the first page, and it sounds like that's the demographic you want to affect anyway.

Someone upthread suggested unlocking multiple Trader techs, and that would be an easy way to have something like the old first page (plus maybe similar things for the Tier II and III goods, depending on when the second tech was unlocked?) available for newer cities and then the More Dynamic System offering more goods for more advanced players.

3) Give us more variety in the offers, in terms of currency. The pattern right now is: for each Tier, one good is available for either coins or supplies, the other for boosted goods. We really want more choice in what we can buy. It would be better if we had one coin and one supply offer (at least) for each Tier. There are multiple ways you could do that: you could have the same basic setup as the old system (each currency for each good) but with the shifting prices; you could have, in each tier, one good going for coins, the other for supplies, and then also one of the two for boosted goods; and so on. But a player with excess supplies needs more than one option of how to spend them, especially when we have nothing else we can do with those excess supplies; and if there is a particular good we need, and a specific currency we want to use, we ought to be able to make that happen even if doing so is rather more expensive that day than we'd prefer.

4) Soften the blow with the ratios. The increasing costs make sense as a feature, but the way they're set now is a bit excessive. I think there are actually a lot of other ways this could be done that would be legitimately more interesting and also friendlier, e.g.:

a) Setting the starting offer to be an actually good deal, then the second (or third) offer at the old base value, and then getting steeper above that.
b) Increasing the quantity of goods received along with the price, but at a lower rate. So for example, say the starting offer was for 100 goods at 100% base price; the second offer was 110 goods at 120% base price; then 120 goods at 140% price, and so on. That way, things do get more expensive, but you're also getting more goods each time, so the situation is psychologically more satisfying.
c) Increase the costs at the same rate you currently are, but after every third purchase rather than after every single purchase.

And so on, but I think it's important that we're able to feel like we can get a good deal, even if we can only get it once or twice.

****

I think it could be interesting if there were multiple daily deals available for each good, which varied in terms of how favourable they were. So for instance, say one day you can get better-than-default deals on marble, but steel is more expensive, and the next day the opposite is true. Or you could have variation by currency rather by good: maybe today, I can get marble for a good price if I pay in coins, a normal price if I pay in steel, and a somewhat more expensive price if I pay in supplies. Or you could vary the amount of goods by the currency -- say a deal for 100 marble involving coins, but a deal for 250 marble involving supplies.

(Stopping now before I start trying to make specific proposals like I said I wasn't going to.)
 

DeletedUser1378

Guest
Developers apparently want us to trade more actively with our neighbors because of the changes in the wholesaler.
Change that needs to be made is in the notifications.
Either create a trades notification form separate from the the notifications buffs we receive or expand the number of pages in the notifications to much more than 9.
When I set up trades and they are taken it pushes those individuals off the current notifications and I miss the opportunity to reciprocate a buff.
 

DeletedUser118

Guest
The reality is you have never made an effort to develop things like an alternative use for supplies. To keep a city in balance, you need a certain number of workshops which produce supplies.

Also you don't have to forget that for almost every Quest Event we had, the need of 10 Workshops was necessary to be able to do the tasks the quests ask in a propper time. Or how else should we get 50 bread (production time 1 hour) done in a matching time if we don't have the matching number of workshops? I don't really wanna spend days on just that. Time would be too short for that anyways.

It just makes you wanna bang your head onto the desktop...
 

DeletedUser1548

Guest
I laughed to myself when I read @Bobbykitty 's post about cross tier trades. ;)
Wholesaler got a remodel in the area which wasn't imabalanced in players' opinion and at the same time during 'the fix' star calculations didn't get any change. And THIS is the place where heavy imbalance lies. ;)

Or maybe in the future supplies will be SO precious tier 3 goods will be worth 1:16? If that's the case I'm a bit worried right now.
Inno-people can you answer if that's the plan?
 
As Mykan said, these kinds of trades are banned by many because these trades are very bad for goods balances. We figured that out quickly. As soon as the first person thought he would be cute and just produce tier three goods and trade for tier one, the rest of the fellowships quickly discovers that everyone will suffer. Anyone seeing these kinds of trade figuratively spits on them. You think you have a problem with game balance? The worlds would begin to see shortages of tier one goods if people hadn't figured this out by now.
Thanks for sharing. I know these trades are not appearing in the Trader as often as same-tier trades. But I do have a question: why exactly are these trades bad? From a balancing perspective they are perfectly balanced and acceptable, but apparently they are not perceived as such by the community. It would be very helpful to know what exactly is so bad about this kind of trades. Could you help us with that? :)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Thanks for sharing. I know these trades are not appearing in the Trader as often as same-tier trades. But I do have a question: why exactly are these trades bad? From a balancing perspective they are perfectly balanced and acceptable, but apparently they are not perceived as such by the community. It would be very helpful to know what exactly is so bad about this kind of trades. Could you help us with that? :)
As Mykan said, these kinds of trades are banned by many because these trades are very bad for goods balances. We figured that out quickly. As soon as the first person thought he would be cute and just produce tier three goods and trade for tier one, the rest of the fellowships quickly discovers that everyone will suffer. Anyone seeing these kinds of trade figuratively spits on them. You think you have a problem with game balance? The worlds would begin to see shortages of tier one goods if people hadn't figured this out by now.

There are whole threads where people demand to know why anyone would be so selfish and horrible as to put up cross tier trades. Some players have even suggested they be banned (though I highly disagree with this....even a bad choice is a choice and I HATE reducing options).

Let me explain why these cross tier goods trades are so bad:

I will use the factories available in Fairies as an example.

In 20 squares of prime real estate (this is a city builder game and space is the highest commodity)
I can make 79.5 gems per square in a 3 hour period (1595 gems/20 squares of space).
That means I can make the trading equivalent of 1272 planks per square (because gems are traded at 16 to 1 because of the COST of the gems to produce.)
However, the same level plank factory can only produce 130.375 planks per square. (1043 planks/8 squares of space).


Or put another way. It takes 20 spaces to produce 1595 gems which is 25520 planks. But it takes 195 spaces to produce the 25520 planks. This is why the whole world quickly finds out that cross tier trades are really bad for them, though they may not know the math. (obviously these exact numbers change level by level, and good by good, but the concept remains the same).

You can mess with the ratios of trading, but then you will throw the cost of production into imbalance because currently the COST of production IS in balance.




Especially during the tournaments. The animations slow to a crawl, even with the battle animations set to low. It took me about an hour to get through 2 provinces. The animations just make the game run like sludge.

Here is why, as @Bobbykitty has already explained in this thread.

Edit: this post is the exact same post as you quoted as I have just noticed, so I have to wonder why you are still asking why cross tier trades are perceived as bad by players. but let me spell it out for you, coins and supplies (production values), mean little to nothing, as they are very easily attainable. Space? too hard to get, trumps costs in coins and supplies, this is why cross tier trades are not allowed in most decent fs.
 
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DeletedUser1548

Guest
Thanks for sharing. I know these trades are not appearing in the Trader as often as same-tier trades. But I do have a question: why exactly are these trades bad? From a balancing perspective they are perfectly balanced and acceptable, but apparently they are not perceived as such by the community. It would be very helpful to know what exactly is so bad about this kind of trades. Could you help us with that? :)
Now I understand everything.
Like a beam of light would appear above my head. I feel enlightened.

PS. To @madzix post I would add that not the cost matters but the time of production. It's of course a consequence of space issue but still worth mentioning, I believe. Time & space not coins & supplies matter.
PS2. Being serious: I am shocked. Really.
 
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