[Discussion] Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

[DeletedUser736]

it will be more fun because people who will follow new inno's rules will get province every day while you will get it every 4-5 days, making them progress 4 times faster on world map, much cheaper and fights will be easy

They will never catch up to me, nor will they ever get a province per day. Because if you were able to get a province a day, you would catch up to me, and you would end up getting a province every 4-5 days. I don't have a low level town, but right now, peoples who do simply are not able to produce enough troop to clear their scouted province. They cannot clear 1 province per day. Unless they have the goods to negotiate.

Inno, apparently want a scout to take a single day, but they definitely do not want to to explore at the pace of 1 province per day. You'd be too far REAL fast.

 

[Dony]

and what is your destination that they can not catch you up? because having highest amount of provinces is not paramount by any means

 

[DeletedUser736]

Basically, you scout provinces to get expansions. Period. At this point in the game, I have sufficient trading partners. The only reason to go forward on the map is for expansion. Even if they were to put a huge roadblock preventing me to go forward until everyone catches up to me, what do I have to gain to just sit down and wait? Why should'nt I grab as much as I can before Inno stop me? Because clearly, in the future, getting province will be at a much slower pace. Marindor say we should take only a single day to scout, but that in no way means that is the time you will need to acquire the province once scouted.

But my guess is that it will end up a bit like Forge of Empire. I was always clearing whaterver I scouted in record time, and end up blocked by a new territory with an ennemy with superior tech and negotiation of goods I cannot produce yet. My guess is that it is what Inno is aiming for. Some kind of stop and go exploring, where you can get provinces at a brisk pace, then hit a wall untill you reach the next tech tree. Then resume at a brisk pace, and hit the wall again.

Nope. I'm still convinced that right now the best strategy is to grab as much land as a player can while it is still possible.

 

[DeletedUser]

@Electra Firestorm : If you're in chapter 5 and fighting armies with 1.000 Thorn Mages, you're way further progressed on the World Map than in your Tech Tree so in that case this is how it should work. Once the rest of your progress matches your World Map exploration again, you will be able to win these fights too.

For your questions about why balance in a game is important: That is of course because of numerous reasons. To keep a game fun and challenging in the long run, a game simply has to be balanced. Prices for techs and buildings should go up, you should be able to unlock better buildings and units, fights should get tougher etcetera. On the subject of fights, this wasn't really the case before. Just using certain overpowered units could let you win fights against armies 5-6 times as big as yours, which of course makes no sense. Fights were not really fun anymore: It was just producing the right unit, (in most cases) click auto-battle and go on to the next province. We want the game to be more dynamic than that.

At this moment when your game is unbalanced, you can notice it in many little things. The fights themselves are one of those, but also think about scouting costs being way higher than they have to be (therefore costing you triple their normal amount of coins), scouting times being around 3-4 days instead of 1 day, like they should be when your tech tree progression matches your world map exploration, armies you face being way too big (though with certain unbalanced units you could win them anyway), but therefore making way more casualties on your side than they should. These are all little things at this moment. Of course you could say: "But if I want to choose to pay more, have more casualties, have longer scouting times etcetera, that should be my own choice". Of course there's truth in that, but as I said: These are just the "little" things you notice right now.

At this moment the game is fully released about 1,5 years and there are many more years to come. If we wouldn't do something about these imbalances right now, the imbalances would only get bigger and bigger in about 2, 3, 4, 5 years from now, causing more and more (and more serious) trouble. Aside from that, we have many ideas for new features/enhancements/guest race specialties still to come and although I can't say too much about those yet, a good balance in the game will be required to make them work properly and smoothly. So although we fully realise that it's a big step to "force" players to have a certain balance between their tech tree progression and world map exploration (and therefore "stopping" their non-tournament fights in situations where this isn't the case), we do this because we know it's necessary to preserve the game's future in the long run. All we can do, is ask you to please give it some time, try to make the sacrifice to temporarily hold off from further world map exploration, knowing that it is for the best, that we wouldn't make you do that if it wasn't absolutely necessary and that this will allow you to play a more fun and interesting game for the next years to come.

@Marindor The problem is, you have stopped most of the tournament fights as well. Level 6 fights are now so hard or impossible that it is not worth to do anything beyond level 4. I might not agree with your position regarding the map, but I can accept your reasoning, but that doesn't explain why you had to mess with tournaments as well. So, I would like an explanation on why the tournaments were made much harder as well, and how are you going to solve the problem of players now being unable to attain enough relics and runes to keep the MA running and build/upgrade wonders.

 

[DeletedUser1711]

it will be more fun because people who will follow new inno's rules will get province every day while you will get it every 4-5 days, making them progress 4 times faster on world map, much cheaper and fights will be easy

Biggest issue: They will have much less space.

As of right now the grid is 11x10. So 110 expasions are needed to fill it completely. But how many do we actually get?

You start out with 6 expansion and now with the woodelves get 37 through reserach. To unlock the woodelves you need to have 190 provinces cleared, but throughout the chapter you might - let's say - clear up to 232 provinces which would be 35 expansions through provinces without putting you "too far ahead". INNO wants to earn some money so let's say you definitely need 10 premium expansions to fill the grid completely.

6+37++35+10 = 88

So what's with the remaining 22 expansions? Only people who pay 2000 diamons per expansion get to have the full grid? That's a load of ********.

If they really wanted to stop us from doing more provinces than they want, than they should not increase the grid anymore. If there is nothing to gain from clearing provinces besides relics, I think a lot of people would stop doing them by themself. INNO would not have to force anything.
Really, this issue with people apparently being too far is their own doing. If they weren't so set on wanting to sell all 33 premium expansions it would hardly be a problem.

 

[Dony]

@Marindor The problem is, you have stopped most of the tournament fights as well. Level 6 fights are now so hard or impossible that it is not worth to do anything beyond level 4. I might not agree with your position regarding the map, but I can accept your reasoning, but that doesn't explain why you had to mess with tournaments as well. So, I would like an explanation on why the tournaments were made much harder as well, and how are you going to solve the problem of players now being unable to attain enough relics and runes to keep the MA running and build/upgrade wonders.

maybe we play different tournaments but i still can manage do level6 without big losses and some of them even without any losses on first 8 provinces, there is a bigger problem with tournaments now and thats they are not rewarding enough, rewards should be tweaked for new system and not copy/paste from old system.

Biggest issue: They will have much less space.

and you have some math backing this statement? because in fact they will have more free space regardless having less number of expansions

 

[DeletedUser]

maybe we play different tournaments but i still can manage do level6 without big losses and some of them even without any losses on first 8 provinces, there is a bigger problem with tournaments now and thats they are not rewarding enough, rewards should be tweaked for new system and not copy/paste from old system.


and you have some math backing this statement? because in fact they will have more free space regardless having less number of expansions

you must be a super fighter, because i have heavy losses. at least last tournament i did, some of the fights were impossible no matter what combo i used, and even playing manually. this tournament i don't know, because i couldn't be bothered staying up late to make level 5 in time of opening level 6 today... its just not worth the effort anymore

 

[DeletedUser1777]

you must be a super fighter

or simply close or below the provinces which should reached at the end of the chapter.
I used to do it like that, finished all the provinces just in time (prepared them before to 7/8), this keeps the enemy small and the negotiation cheap

 

[DeletedUser]

or simply close or below the provinces which should reached at the end of the chapter.
I used to do it like that, finished all the provinces just in time (prepared them before to 7/8), this keeps the enemy small and the negotiation cheap

I am talking about tournaments.... I thought the size of enemys there was based on your squad size researched, not the amount of provinces we have done?

 

[Dony]

I used to do it like that, finished all the provinces just in time (prepared them before to 7/8), this keeps the enemy small and the negotiation cheap

i have more then 300 finished and as far as i can tell this number has zero effect on the enemy numbers in tournaments

 

[DeletedUser1777]

maybe the difference is marginal with 300+ provinces, but for tournaments definitely the finished provinces take account. it was confirmed in my country forum by a CM too.

I've written down the negotiation costs the last monthes for every tournament I did (just missed the first 2), and everytime I completed one or more provinces, the amount of ressources has increased.

We will see, if there is a change upcoming too - don't have numbers for my beta, just can prove live.

 

[Dony]

yes it increase cost but not enemy's squad size

 

[DeletedUser]

yes, i think the provinces count toward the negotiation costs, but i don't think they influence the difficulty of the fights

In any case, I know other players that have noticed the fights in the tournaments are a lot harder than before, so I am not the only one. and since it is totally unrelated with possible balance issues on the map, I would like to know why inno has increased the difficulty so much, making it harder for players to get runes and relics. There were already mechanisms in place to prevent players from doing too much (fights keept increasing with each level/ring, negotiation costs increased as well), so why was it needed to prevent players form doing a lot on tournaments as well?

 

[Dony]

yes, i think the provinces count toward the negotiation costs, but i don't think they influence the difficulty of the fights

In any case, I know other players that have noticed the fights in the tournaments are a lot harder than before, so I am not the only one. and since it is totally unrelated with possible balance issues on the map, I would like to know why inno has increased the difficulty so much, making it harder for players to get runes and relics. There were already mechanisms in place to prevent players from doing too much (fights keept increasing with each level/ring, negotiation costs increased as well), so why was it needed to prevent players form doing a lot on tournaments as well?

we will need 3rd part of battle desing to be released to evaluate this properly, there can be new choices for fights who are harder now but will be easier later with new units

 

[CrazyWizard]

- technical issues with the battle system in general (developing flying units)

this one is awesome, because the flying units, still dont fly :S

 

[DeletedUser1711]

and you have some math backing this statement? because in fact they will have more free space regardless having less number of expansions

First of all: I fail to see how they will have more space with less expansions? Do their building suddenly take up less space than mine now? Are their building getting smaller instead of bigger like mine do right now?

I did not think I would have to prove that with less expansions (78 without diamond use and 232 prvonces cleared) you also have less space than someone who has more expansions because they have more provinces. Is that not logical enough?

 

[DeletedUser736]

Peoples with new cites will definitely get the short end of the stick. Let's assume they block negotiation too. I am going to be stuck at 350 provinces, with all the expansions that comes with it. The new player will be stuck at wherever the dev decided to block them. Eventually, when the tech reach me and allow me to go beyond the 350 provinces I already have, I will still be able to move along with all the new player who reached me in the meantime.

Bottom line : Eventually, it should even itself out, but let's say a full years goes by before my current 350 provinces is reached and I can move forward again, that extra space I had trough the said year will be a huge advantage over player who were blocked.

In fact, now that I think about it, currently, the new system CREATE an imbalnace. Because as of now, everyone can move on at pretty much the same pace (provided you negotiate). Once the block negotiation, players too far ahead will be stuck, yes, but will have a clear space advantage in their cities until tech catch us. And that can take a while.

 

[DeletedUser]

First of all: I fail to see how they will have more space with less expansions? Do their building suddenly take up less space than mine now? Are their building getting smaller instead of bigger like mine do right now?

I did not think I would have to prove that with less expansions (78 without diamond use and 232 prvonces cleared) you also have less space than someone who has more expansions because they have more provinces. Is that not logical enough?

I would think it is basic maths really...lol
Not to mention all the extra buildings that we are nearly forced to build, like the MA, the merc camp, the training grounds... Newer players will have less space to build all of them, because they will have less expansions. How can anyone dispute that its beyond me. Its like someone saying 70 is more than 80...

 

[DeletedUser651]

Prices for techs and buildings should go up, you should be able to unlock better buildings and units, fights should get tougher etcetera. On the subject of fights, this wasn't really the case before. Just using certain overpowered units could let you win fights against armies 5-6 times as big as yours, which of course makes no sense.

Then shouldn't the rewards in the quests go up too? It has been two or three chapters since the quests gave any more supplies or coins. That isn't balanced.

scouting costs being way higher than they have to be (therefore costing you triple their normal amount of coins), scouting times being around 3-4 days instead of 1 day, like they should be when your tech tree progression matches your world map exploration, armies you face being way too big (though with certain unbalanced units you could win them anyway), but therefore making way more casualties on your side than they should.

The devs are trying to make up for the wrong problem and making things very unbalanced. The main reason so many of us are so far ahead with scouting is because the devs had us all waiting so long between chapters. No accusations here, that is just the fact. The current players do not face that. So they are "balancing" a thing that isn't unbalanced. The new players aren't facing months and months of waiting. They are getting through the tech tree so their scouts are closer and more caught up.

Moreover, has anyone done the math and seen what little area you expect players to have? I am too far as you call it, and with the new race, I am about 300 provinces behind all the expansions I need. 300. So just how tiny a grid are you "balancing" this game into? At this rate they won't be able to put a main hall in their cities because it will be too big! You can't have enough factories to pay for the techs. No room for all the workshops needed to make anything work. And no way to put in the houses needed to support all that.

Instead of balancing things, this makes the game extremely unbalanced.

On the subject of fights, this wasn't really the case before. Just using certain overpowered units could let you win fights against armies 5-6 times as big as yours, which of course makes no sense.

Actually, no. Maybe Goryn could win those battles, but most of us could not. In fact, all the top players I played with had quit fighting a long time ago because they already thought it was too hard. Maybe a fight here and there could be won, but most of the time, nope. Just like now. All we do is negotiate. So this mythical balancing isn't occurring, nothing is changing, except now most of the rest of the players can't win battles either.

Fights were not really fun anymore: It was just producing the right unit, (in most cases) click auto-battle and go on to the next province. We want the game to be more dynamic than that.

ok I guess. Too complicated for me now. Wayyyyy too complicated. I'm not here for a fighting game, I am here for a building game. I would think for fighters this game really isn't their cup of tea if that is all they want. Seems you are designing for a very few tiny numbers of players and ignoring what the majority want.

At this moment when your game is unbalanced, you can notice it in many little things...... armies you face being way too big (though with certain unbalanced units you could win them anyway), but therefore making way more casualties on your side than they should.

Have you SEEN the current fights?

In fact, now that I think about it, currently, the new system CREATE an imbalnace. Because as of now, everyone can move on at pretty much the same pace (provided you negotiate). Once the block negotiation, players too far ahead will be stuck, yes, but will have a clear space advantage in their cities until tech catch us.

And talk about imbalance? The spenders will now be miles ahead of everyone else. Miles and miles and miles. Out in the stratosphere. Two completely separate groups. So far, that anyone who doesn't open a vein...um wallet....will be doomed to be a bottom feeder.

 

[Dony]

clearly because you will need more buildings to keep your town up and running while still exploring far ends of the map, while others who dont they can use that space however they like resulting in more space available for them, even non fighters will have free expansions because they wont need any resources for negotiation, no orcs (they dont need 5 armories for making orcs nonstop=supplies saved), no future's resource added later to block you, fights will be even winable with autocombat (you wont need millions of army to keep up with losses in provinces in that regard), and resources required for tech tree and upgrades are easily manageable with this, just because you have more free space you can have 170% culture bonus all the time without any premium culture building, resulting with much more supplies which are even multiplicative with spells, resulting in even more supplies, yes they wont be rank 1 but honestly do you believe that newcomers who enter this game today thinks about being first for longer then 2s? they just want to enjoy this game, they already know they have zero chances for overall competition.
im pretty sure devs already noticed that early chapters will need some tweaks for fighters (for others its same as it was), and that can be done easily in next patches

ask yourself why you need so much productions/workshops/residences/culture?
a) you want to be rank 1 and that is a valid reason, but thats less then 1% of elvenar population (lets be honest here everybody knows that big spenders will be top no matter what)
b) you need all of that to keep up with negotiations and upgrades of buildings solely for that reason, while others can neglect that

just 1 example since people dont even bother using brain and do some counts
at the end of the orc chapter max squad size is 1140
now with your scouting too far you can meet armies who are 4000+ squad size
with this new system in place, researching new advanced scout reduce that number by 50% resulting to 2000+ squad size of that same army as above if we do scout after that research
lets say we wont scout whole next chapter and wait for another advanced scout, that will reduce that same army to 1000, while yours will be already 1494, things get balanced pretty fast, and beating this army can be done by autocombat
now image how much resources you will safe without the need to negotiate