Tournament squad size calc - we need your data!

[Deleted User - 81190]

@MinMax Gamer is there a list anywhere of total mandatory researches per chapter, so I do not end up recounting them each week? Lol

https://minmaxgame.com/city-advancement-level-model-2020/#m-values-per-chapter (chapter 17 are not correct now)

But if you're using spreadsheet it calculates it for you when you fill in your chapter number and human/elf qualifier.

 

[Deleted User - 88256]

Have you removed 1 AW? I believe you've had 68 a week before.

I indeed removed a level 1 AW.

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

I have made a copy. The columns that I'm trying to figure out what to fill out:

Chapter Progress

maxB

M

A

P

V

nStar

nProv

TSSo

TSSe

Please could you explain to this n00b in this beta world what you wish to get here?

maxB, M, A, P, V are not white so these are all calculated fields. Chapter progress is how many researches you have paid for in the current chapter, ignoring the ones that have no dependent techs (ignore optional research). mStar is a star number of the tournament encounter (from 1 to 6), nProv is the province number (the higher the better). TSSo is own squad size in this encounter, TSSe is the enemy squad in the same encounter.

You only need a single encounter per week, no need to report TSSe either as this progression is well known already.

 

[Earwen1]

maxB, M, A, P, V are not white so these are all calculated fields.

Ah ok... Contrast in colouring, that was another subject in this forum. ;-)

Chapter progress is how many researches you have paid for in the current chapter, ignoring the ones that have no dependent techs (ignore optional research). mStar is a star number of the tournament encounter (from 1 to 6), nProv is the province number (the higher the better). TSSo is own squad size in this encounter, TSSe is the enemy squad in the same encounter.

You only need a single encounter per week, no need to report TSSe either as this progression is well known already.

Ok, you will have the details of my next.
I had only 1 encounter with this account so far, then the tournament was over and of course I don't remember the squad sizes of that one.

nProv: Do I understand it right if this is the number of provinces that we are able to battle in? Or is it the number of provinces that we have unlocked on the map all together?

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

nProv: Do I understand it right if this is the number of provinces that we are able to battle in? Or is it the number of provinces that we have unlocked on the map all together?

This is the province number that you're reporting squad sizes from.

 

[Earwen1]

This is the province number that you're reporting squad sizes from.

Ha, now I get it. Thanks so much for your patience!!

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

https://minmaxgame.com/city-advancement-level-model-2020/#m-values-per-chapter (chapter 17 are not correct now)

But if you're using spreadsheet it calculates it for you when you fill in your chapter number and human/elf qualifier.

I am not a Google person and can't get those things to work for me. lol

Anyway, Elf city at end of chapter 6. I have Mboost of 700%, M Research 128 for Spire and will be 130 for next tournament, AW levels 14 for Spire and will be 15 for tournament, Normal Expansions 55 for Spire and 56 for tournament, and zero premium expansions so far. Also, it looks like the Main Hall level does not matter any more, like when you had us listing it for the original Spire research? In case it does, mine is not maxed, but is only level 16. And with those numbers, my starting Spire squad size today is 299.

 

[Deleted User - 88256]

Beta : tournament P2 1*, squad size 11, catering costs 34 T1, with chapter 2 elven city, 33 mandatory techs, no AWs, the 6 starting expansions + 1 premium expansion bought, and max boost T2 at 171%. My T2 boost (silk) is where I have the most relics.
The fact that researching T2 boost didn't increase my tournament costs makes me think my T2 boost was already counted as max relic boost before I researched it.

Live : data taken at Spire first encounter for all three cities, at the beginning of the Spire last week.
Live fr1 : elf just entering chapter 3 (40 mandatory techs), no wonders, 12 expansions all non-premium, and max boost T1 at 171%. Theoretically, I have a higher T4 boost with 36 relics. Spire squad size 12 with catering costs 86 supplies, 11 T1s.
This means I have a significantly higher (more than +100%) CAL in my beta city than on this city, yet this city is more advanced on everything. Will wait Tuesday to see if I see this comparing Tournament costs too.
Live fr3 : elven city ened chapter 16, 210 AW levels and 121 expansions, 8 of which are premium. Spire squad size 3703.
Live fr4 : elven city in chapter 13 (307 mandatory techs), 67 AW levels, 97 expansions, 5 of which premium. Spire squad size 1381.

Data from last week :
Beta and live fr1 : see below
Live fr3 : +2 non-premium expansions. SS 3768 in Spire first encounter ; 21096 in tournament P28, 1*
Live fr4 : +6 techs. SS 1419 in Spire first encounter ; 4540 in tournament P16, 1*
New account (has 8 T1boost relics and no added expansions) : catering costs 450 coins in first province, 1*

Detailed comparison for Beta and Live fr1 as these two cities seem to have weird squad sizes :

City	elf/human	Chapter	MTechs	AW levels	Expansions	Relics	Tournament province	Own Squad size	Catering cost (T1)
Beta	Elf	2	33	0	7 (1 premium)	15 32 15 27 18 21 1 15 0	Province 2, 4*	27	85
Live fr1	Human	3	40	0	12 (0 premium)	33 19 30 41 28 14 6 10 6	Province 4, 2* (so same factor to CAL)	12	36

For relics, I listed my boosted relics in the first row, boosted+1 in second row and boosted+2 in third row.
The only explanation I can see for having higher costs in my beta city would be that the first non-premium expansions don't penalize (so for example if you have less than 12 it's counted as 12) and then the premium expansions are added. But this wouldn't be sufficient to explain a 125% (!!) difference.
PS: Relic boost overview (from wiki, at the end of the page)

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

The only explanation I can see for having higher costs in my beta city...

There can be another explanation - calculation on Beta is somewhat different. Both cities are very small, so edge cases, but your live FR1 numbers fit fairly well with the current calculation, while Beta is less so. I have data for very few cities from Beta, but I have observed small differences with the current calculation for the Beta cities, even for advanced ones. The errors are small (we're still talking <1%), but noticeable. Given that I don't have enough data there it is hard to say if it's systematic or just a fluke. But I won't be surprised if for one reason or other the formulas are slightly different for Beta.

 

[Deleted User - 88256]

Data from last week :
Beta and live fr1 : see below
Live fr3 : +2 non-premium expansions. SS 3768 in Spire first encounter ; 21096 in tournament P28, 1*
Live fr4 : +6 techs. SS 1419 in Spire first encounter ; 4540 in tournament P16, 1*
New account (has 8 T1boost relics and no added expansions) : catering costs 450 coins in first province, 1*

Detailed comparison for Beta and Live fr1 as these two cities seem to have weird squad sizes :

City	elf/human	Chapter	MTechs	AW levels	Expansions	Relics	Tournament province	Own Squad size	Catering cost (T1)
Beta	Elf	2	33	0	7 (1 premium)	15 32 15 27 18 21 1 15 0	Province 2, 4*	27	85
Live fr1	Human	3	40	0	12 (0 premium)	33 19 30 41 28 14 6 10 6	Province 4, 2* (so same factor to CAL)	12	36

For relics, I listed my boosted relics in the first row, boosted+1 in second row and boosted+2 in third row.
The only explanation I can see for having higher costs in my beta city would be that the first non-premium expansions don't penalize (so for example if you have less than 12 it's counted as 12) and then the premium expansions are added. But this wouldn't be sufficient to explain a 125% (!!) difference.
PS: Relic boost overview (from wiki, at the end of the page)

(Data from previous week)
Live fr3 : +3 AW levels, SS 3788 in Spire first encounter
Live fr4 : +7 techs, SS 1465
No noticeable changes in my secondary cities. I'm planning to make some experiments about expansions in my Beta city once I'll reach chapter 3, so I'll restart reporting starting with upcoming week.

 

[Deleted User - 88256]

(Data from previous week)
Live fr3 : +3 AW levels, SS 3788 in Spire first encounter
Live fr4 : +7 techs, SS 1465
No noticeable changes in my secondary cities. I'm planning to make some experiments about expansions in my Beta city once I'll reach chapter 3, so I'll restart reporting starting with upcoming week.

Last week :
Live fr3 : +5 AW levels, SS 3823 (own SS in Spire first encounter as usual)
Live fr4 : +9 techs, +2 AW levels (69 now), SS 1535
My 5th city (which is on live) reached chapter 2 last week and had the same tournament costs as my beta city (slots of 17 T1 to cater first tournament encounter). So I have now another hypothesis : CAL is fixed for chapter 2 cities (and chapter 1 too with a different value, corresponding to catering cost 450 coins/45 supplies), regardless of other parameters, and the formula you found is only used for chapters 3+. Will see if I see a sudden decrease in tournament costs when I reach chapter 3 on Beta.

 

[Deleted User - 88256]

This week :
Live fr3 : +1 AW level, SS 3830
Live fr4 : +3 techs and 1 non-premium expansion, SS 1575

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

So I have now another hypothesis : CAL is fixed for chapter 2 cities (and chapter 1 too with a different value, corresponding to catering cost 450 coins/45 supplies), regardless of other parameters, and the formula you found is only used for chapters 3+.

This is possible, I don't have anyone reporting consistently for small cities to confirm or reject that.

 

[Deleted User - 88256]

Will see if I see a sudden decrease in tournament costs when I reach chapter 3 on Beta.

So I reached chapter 3 before the tournament started, and Spire spawned with starting squad size 5. Then Tournament first province, 1* asked me for 210 coins, 3 T1s and 2 T2s.
On this city I have max relic boost 186%, but I have 54 marble relics which would make a 228% boost if boosted. I have 6 expansions (start) + 1 premium. I just entered chapter 3 as an elf, so 41 techs done ; and no Ancient Wonders.

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

So I reached chapter 3 before the tournament started, and Spire spawned with starting squad size 5. Then Tournament first province, 1* asked me for 210 coins, 3 T1s and 2 T2s.
On this city I have max relic boost 186%, but I have 54 marble relics which would make a 228% boost if boosted. I have 6 expansions (start) + 1 premium. I just entered chapter 3 as an elf, so 41 techs done ; and no Ancient Wonders.

Something is not right here:

ZZ1 low level city:
2020-10-08: M=33 (C02), model does NOT match well with observations, real SSSo/TSSo of 27/5.4 vs model SSSo/TSSo of 3.3/0.7
2020-10-27: M=41 (C03), model matches well with observations, real SSSo/TSSo of 5/0.8 vs model SSSo/TSSo of 3.6/0.7

The model is consistent in progression, but your reported numbers dropped more than 5x between chapter 2 and chapter 3. Are you SURE you reported C02 chapter numbers correctly? This looks like you might be reporting from a different province.

Also, you probably want to reach province 2, 4* again now, just to make sure that your are comparing apples to apples.

 

[Deleted User - 88256]

Something is not right here:

ZZ1 low level city:
2020-10-08: M=33 (C02), model does NOT match well with observations, real SSSo/TSSo of 27/5.4 vs model SSSo/TSSo of 3.3/0.7
2020-10-27: M=41 (C03), model matches well with observations, real SSSo/TSSo of 5/0.8 vs model SSSo/TSSo of 3.6/0.7

The model is consistent in progression, but your reported numbers dropped more than 5x between chapter 2 and chapter 3. Are you SURE you reported C02 chapter numbers correctly? This looks like you might be reporting from a different province.

Also, you probably want to reach province 2, 4* again now, just to make sure that your are comparing apples to apples.

Yes, I correctly reported numbers for chapter 2. This behaviour is well explained by my theory of CAL being fixed at 45 for chapter 2 cities (and 15 for chapter 1, regardless of other parameters), and the formula with relic boost, wonders and expansions is only used for chapters 3+. This explains too wh I had 125% higher tournament costs in my beta chapter 2 city than in my live chapter 3 city.
Data from other chapter 2 cities also confirm this :

Spoiler: Data

City	Race	Date	Chapter	Expansions	Next Premium Cost	Chapter Progress	Total AW Levels	T1 Boost%	T2 Boost%	T3 Boost%	maxB	M	A	P	V	nStar	nProv	TSSo	TSSe	Coins	Supplies	T1
ZZ1 Lord Soth	E	2020-07-21	2	13	450	3	0	86%			86%	21	0	0	13	1	1	10	2	1400		34
ZZ1 Lord Soth	E	2020-07-21	2	13	450	3	0	86%			86%	21	0	0	13	1	2	11	3		270	68
ZZ1 Lord Soth	E	2020-07-21	2	13	450	3	0	86%			86%	21	0	0	13	1	3	16	7	4100	410	51

And also in your blog (https://minmaxgame.com/city-advancement-level-model-2020/) I saw someone posting in comments about a chapter 2 city getting the same catering costs.

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

Yes, I correctly reported numbers for chapter 2. This behaviour is well explained by my theory of CAL being fixed at 45 for chapter 2 cities (and 15 for chapter 1, regardless of other parameters), and the formula with relic boost, wonders and expansions is only used for chapters 3+. This explains too wh I had 125% higher tournament costs in my beta chapter 2 city than in my live chapter 3 city.

Did you see the same behavior for chapter 2 in your live city?

If your theory about C01 and C02 is correct, then it is a pretty laughable way of implementing costs for low-level cities. Having 5 times costs in C02 than in C03? LOL, they don't just throttle end-gamers, they take care of the little guys too. True egalitarian approach. /s

 

[Deleted User - 88256]

Did you see the same behavior for chapter 2 in your live city?

I got the same behaviour in my last live city that is still in chapter 2 as already said. I have no live cities that reached chapter 3 after the tournament changes hit live yet.

My 5th city (which is on live) reached chapter 2 last week and had the same tournament costs as my beta city (slots of 17 T1 to cater first tournament encounter).

If your theory about C01 and C02 is correct, then it is a pretty laughable way of implementing costs for low-level cities. Having 5 times costs in C02 than in C03? LOL, they don't just throttle end-gamers, they take care of the little guys too. True egalitarian approach. /s

Well, you're not supposed to have 7 expansio's in chapter 2, but 45 CAL still seems high for chapter 2. Edit : however, 5*TSSo is similar to regular squad size in chapter 2...

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I am a bit bummed that the next FA starts on Monday. I have two research expansions and one scouting expansion ready to place, and can buy my first two premium expansions with all my free diamonds, and was going to do all five on Tuesday, after the next tournament started, to see the impact on the following tournament. But I need the space now for the FA production.

@MinMax Gamer if I do not place them all, which would you rather see numbers for, the free expansions or the premium ones?

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

@MinMax Gamer if I do not place them all, which would you rather see numbers for, the free expansions or the premium ones?

Whatever works better for you, the model is pretty stable.