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Tournament squad size calc - we need your data!

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MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
Those who actually play on Beta and want to contribute to figuring out the tournament formula can start collecting data on new squad sizes. This would be vs the same factors that are in play for the Spire (I'd be surprised if those are different), so that means # of mandatory techs activated, total number of AWs, regular and premium expansions and max relic boost for small cities. Also, progression of squad sizes through provinces and stars.
Thanks.
You can use this template for tracking: https://bit.ly/TournamentSSData (you need to make your own copy)

The columns on the left should look familiar for those who have seen the Spire calculator. nStar is star-level (1 to 6), nProv is province number (1+), TSSo is own squad size, TSSe is enemy squad size.

Progression within the same player/same tournament is fixed (just as in the Spire), so we only need to collect one row per city per tournament. Ideally, the squad sizes would be from your last 1* province (to reduce rounding errors). As usual, you can send me results via PM or post here. I prefer PM as these are easier to track.

Thanks.
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
While I like to help, I am not sure it is very wise to start this project now,
There is a lot of comment on it already, and it's not unlikely that changes to the formula will be made as a result.

This means you might end up with a lot of "corrupted" data in the process clouding your judgement
 

DeletedUser3314

Guest
@MinMax Gamer
I've got an expansion that I haven't placed yet, do I count it towards the Expansions column or not ? -> Have placed it, no effect on data.
Also I have 1 none mandatory tech City Expansion 1 (have placed that expansion however), do I count it for Chapter Progress or not ? I haven't now.
CityRaceDateChapterExpansionsNext Premium CostChapter ProgressTotal AW LevelsT1 Boost%T2 Boost%T3 Boost%maxBMAPVnStarnProvTSSoTSSeCoinsSupplies
Lord Soth ZZ1E2020-07-1411045012086%86%120010112145045
Lord Soth ZZ1E2020-07-1411145013086%86%130011124290090
Lord Soth ZZ1E2020-07-1511145012086%86%120011214290090
Lord Soth ZZ1E2020-07-1511145013086%86%13001122631400140
 
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Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
While I like to help, I am not sure it is very wise to start this project now,
There is a lot of comment on it already, and it's not unlikely that changes to the formula will be made as a result.

This means you might end up with a lot of "corrupted" data in the process clouding your judgement
I'm with crazywizard on this. the formula used to calculate the squad size needs to change.
So either you end up with mixed data, (formula now and better formula) or the formula doesn't change, and its game over anyway =)

PS Soth: pretty sure tournament is calculated like spire now, meaning once the tournament starts, nothing you do affects the cost anymore untill next week.
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
I'm with crazywizard on this. the formula used to calculate the squad size needs to change.
So either you end up with mixed data, (formula now and better formula) or the formula doesn't change, and its game over anyway =)
So how are you guys planning to provide constructive feedback on the tournament now? "My losses feel high, please reduce it"? Without better understanding how it is calculated now, it will likely go live before any significant changes are made. So far, you have a single result in your own city, that's per week. How representative what you see is?

We may not uncover the full formula in this run (or we may if it is reasonably close to how Spire works), but we may learn a lot about how it is constructed and provide much more targeted comments. We can always start with a clean slate on live, to make sure data is clean.
 

HolyElf

Well-Known Member
So how are you guys planning to provide constructive feedback on the tournament now? "My losses feel high, please reduce it"? Without better understanding how it is calculated now, it will likely go live before any significant changes are made. So far, you have a single result in your own city, that's per week. How representative what you see is?

We may not uncover the full formula in this run (or we may if it is reasonably close to how Spire works), but we may learn a lot about how it is constructed and provide much more targeted comments. We can always start with a clean slate on live, to make sure data is clean.
Or you can neglect the first week (or more) of data and continue the iterations.
thanks for doing what you are doing. I sincerely appreciate it.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Well, the first star for the first province had interesting numbers in my city starting chapter 4. My squad size of 14 was 10% of my regular squad size of 141, but the enemy squad size was 2. I only have five elixir provinces open, but I am scouting another right now. Anyway, my squad size increased by 10% each province, which would put me at 100% in province 10. While the enemy will be over 100% of my squad by province 9, going by the progression of increase in the first 5 provinces, it went 2 - 7 - 16 - 28 - 43. If the numbers work the way I am looking at them, if I had 10 provinces open, in the 10th one, I would have 141 and the enemy would be 163.
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
Well, the first star for the first province had interesting numbers in my city starting chapter 4. My squad size of 14 was 10% of my regular squad size of 141, but the enemy squad size was 2. I only have five elixir provinces open, but I am scouting another right now. Anyway, my squad size increased by 10% each province, which would put me at 100% in province 10. While the enemy will be over 100% of my squad by province 9, going by the progression of increase in the first 5 provinces, it went 2 - 7 - 16 - 28 - 43. If the numbers work the way I am looking at them, if I had 10 provinces open, in the 10th one, I would have 141 and the enemy would be 163.
Well, if I am reading it correctly, it doesn't exactly match numbers posted by Dony and CrazyWizard, unless there is some massive rounding on a small city like this. That's exactly why I wanted to see more systematic data.

Also, if Dony is correct, then ramp up is not linear so you can't project like that. The increases become smaller as number of provinces increases.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Well, if I am reading it correctly, it doesn't exactly match numbers posted by Dony and CrazyWizard, unless there is some massive rounding on a small city like this. That's exactly why I wanted to see more systematic data.

Also, if Dony is correct, then ramp up is not linear so you can't project like that. The increases become smaller as number of provinces increases.

Here is what I calculated. 7 is 5 more than 2. 16 is 5+4 more than 7. 28 is 5+7 more than 16. 43 is 5+10 more than 28. 61 is 5+13 more than 43. And so on. I can confirm or deny the 61 for province 6 later today, once it finishes scouting and I compete it. And it may be both linear in batches and non-linear overall.

Edit: Enemy squad size was 62 for province 6, so close enough to the 61 I was estimating that it could be a rounding error, since my city is so small.
 
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MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
OK, so here are preliminary observations based on anonymous player who sent detailed info up to province 30 (1*):

- Your own SS increases linearly at least until L30, so if your TSS in province 1 is X, then in province 2 it will be 2X, in 10 will be 10X, in 20 - 20X etc. This is the same how your own SS ramped up previously (except the initial TSS is different)
- Enemy TSS is fixed to your own for each province, and matches Dony's table, i.e. if your own base TSS is X, then enemy TSS in province 5 will be 0.63X, in province 10 will be 1.15X, 1.58X in province 20 and 1.94X in province 30.
- Relative costs of goods are the same as for the Spire, you can look at relative values under Catering Costs here: https://minmaxgame.com/spire-requirements-calculation/
- Costs of catering are directly proportionate to your own TSS. Not to enemy TSS. This means that catering does NOT experience double ramp up in difficulty that fighting does. For fighting, your own TSS grows, and your enemy TSS factor grows. This does not happen with catering, so it grows in linear fashion, e.g. catering province 30 is "only" 30x more expensive than province 1.
- You can actually use my Spire requirements calculator (http://bit.ly/spire-req-calc) to calculate your costs of goods for any particular encounter. You will need to use 3.3 factor to your own tournament squad size in a particular encounter. So if you see your own TSS as 1000, you need to type in 3300 and the first line in the spreadsheet will give you your catering costs.

This is all for 1* for now, but if Dony data is correct, then it is easy to generalize it to other star tiers. Don't know yet how base TSSo relates to base SSSo as I haven't seen that data.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Enemy TSS is fixed to your own for each province, and matches Dony's table, i.e. if your own base TSS is X, then enemy TSS in province 5 will be 0.63X, in province 10 will be 1.15X, 1.58X in province 20 and 1.94X in province 30.

That matches up to my personal numbers for my chapter 4 city up to province 10, where your squad is 100% of base and enemy is 115% of your base.

I now know one thing. In my Live chapter 16 city, I normally do 5 or 6 stars in the first 10 provinces and the first 2 stars out to at least province 40, but not anymore with these numbers. So much KP will be lost because of this.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
You forgot an extra zero ;) It's 1000% and 1150%, or 10x and 11.5x of base.

No, I think you read that wrong. When I say base, I am talking about my base squad size in my barracks, not the first province. My squad size in my barracks is 141, so my tournament squad size in province 10 will also be 141. And province 1 is 10% of my base squad size, or 14.
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
No, I think you read that wrong. When I say base, I am talking about my base squad size in my barracks, not the first province. My squad size in my barracks is 141, so my tournament squad size in province 10 will also be 141. And province 1 is 10% of my base squad size, or 14.
Oh, I see. This is probably just a coincidence then (TSSo @ 10 = regular SS).
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Oh, I see. This is probably just a coincidence then (TSSo @ 10 = regular SS).

Why? Doesn't it say somewhere that is how it works? 1st star of 1st province is 10% of your normal squad size, like with the old system, 1st star of 1st province is 5% of your normal squad size. Just with the new system, tournament and normal are equal at province 10 instead of province 20.
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
Why? Doesn't it say somewhere that is how it works? 1st star of 1st province is 10% of your normal squad size, like with the old system, 1st star of 1st province is 5% of your normal squad size. Just with the new system, tournament and normal are equal at province 10 instead of province 20.
No, what they're saying is that regular SS has no impact on tournament whatsoever now - base calculation is similar to the Spire.
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
@MinMax Gamer When I use your SpireCals sheet to calculated catering cost for tournament they don't match. My TSSo was 2 in my first fight. If I've put in the numbers correctly in your sheet catering cost should be 160 coins/16 supplies and some T1 but for my tournament they actually were much higher: 450 coins/45 supplies, doubling that for 2nd fight.
View attachment 7567
So if you see your own TSS as 1000, you need to type in 3300.

You haven't multiplied by 3.3, have you? ;) I am finishing up a more user-friendly version of the calculator, that is actually specific for tournaments.
 

DeletedUser3314

Guest
You haven't multiplied by 3.3, have you? ;) I am finishing up a more user-friendly version of the calculator, that is actually specific for tournaments.
Yes, I just realized that mistake myself. :oops:

Actual catering cost were even a bit lower that your sheet calculated, 450/45 <> 470/47. :)
1594795563123.png
 
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