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[Discussion] Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

Dony

King of Bugs
part 2, too big post
There are more ways how to make fights more fun.
1. you can replace the defense reducing debuff with old one increasing damage taken, and focus all debuffs on damage (increasing it or decreasing it), with the stacking debuffs i mentioned the result can be same as now or better, more rewarding and satisfying.
2. our units can have inventories where you can place items (boots, weapon, helm, chest, whatever) for example which increasing damage by 2-3 (whatever), that items can be shared between classes or specific for 1 class, can be buyed as a coin sink mechanic (new building, new AW, trader, MA) or crafted (MA) from our runes (every item will require different runes to craft), if crafted then that item can be traded with others on market with different item (1:1), if crafted then plans for every item can be won as reward in tournaments, fellowship-tournament chest rewards, events, plans could also be traded between people, and that item can then be upgraded and so on, there is plenty of ways to implement spending diamnods here, it also makes feel we upgrading our units overtime even when we waiting for new upgrade for years.
3. upgrading enemies per province in tournament can be a bit more balancing for example instead of going from Cannoneer II to Crazy Cannoneer in next province it can be mixed squad of both types, having to fight 2 crazy cannoneers and 4 cannoneer II will increase our strategic choices and if crazy cannoneer will attack first then all lower versions will do more damage, if we kill crazy ones we will take less damage, it feels satisfying, i guess you got my point, having all enemies from 1 class same level is shallow (there are some exceptions tho)

Now about few images i posted above in this thread, as i mentioned i like resistance much more, having +60% resist means that i resist 60% of damage, its simple and clear to me, thats why i used +% in defense bonus.
In my next pre battle screen i used difficulty for tournaments how i would make it, i was also thinking about another gauge which could represent likeliness of winning combat smootly a.k.a how much losses i can expect especially for auto combat (if you choose the right units of course, ignoring map layout)


In my combat tooltip on mouseover on enemy unit i used skull as minimum and maximum possible looses from that squad i am attacking, below is the current bonuses after applying all debuffs, then i used what debuffs both units have currently on them showing how long till they are gone, then i used strike back with numbers which indicate if unit can strike back or used all already, bellow is retaliation damage showing next to a skull how many of my units will die if i attack this unit (this number will be calculated from damaged squad taking into account minimum and maximum looses, resulting with potential minimum and maximum possible retaliation), bellow red line i made similar chart if that target would actually hit me, what will be the outcome, with this people can actually see who is biggest threat without knowing all ratings, advantages or disadvantages, they will just see how many of my units will die if they attack me untouched, this can help decide on who to place attack reducing debuff, initially i wanted in this tooltip to have exact damage of my unit and life of opponent, but then i realized i dont need to know that, game can calculate it for me and just show me minimum and maximum outcome.


Its clear that you can throw your rating away when both sides have debuffs on them which changes units power a lot making 5 sword rating useless.

I would also like to say that i dont like change made in last update https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...of-units-in-army-camp-screen-is-missing.6775/
i find it missleading to see only possible squads i have because it is changing a lot, its different on word map and in provinces in tournament, getting more increased squad size tech doesnt help with that either, yes i can mouse hover over evey units to see the numbers, but it was much more convenient for me, before tournaments i am trying to have certain numbers of each unit, which i could see from that screen, now i just ned to hover over every unit and remember that, remembering squad sizes doesnt help me with researching new techs, that will change that numbers.
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
Dony, i bet your post is very good, but i fear its too long, so long even devs wont read it completly.
Even if they would read it, i fear it will go to deaf mans ears. We've been saying for a while what is wrong, but we havent even been acknowledged that they read all the problems we point out. Let alone we know if they agree/disagree and consider doing something about it... (this thread is 41 pages long allready but have you got the feeling anything in those 41 pages made a difference?)

I agree tournament is alot harder, as you clearly pointed out, but tournament became nothing more then massproducing units and letting them get slaughtered on auto. So it became a matter of hammer production mainly. Not sure if that was their intention, but at least it makes the academy more appealing now to keep up with the required hammers with the provision spell.

In my personal experience, i choose to play with elfes because of they damage reduction so that their units lived longer (but did less damage). I preferred fighting that way over the human way, wich was first strike and high damage but high losses.
Now it is the other way around, humans have better range and therefor less losses. So now i feel i wasted a lot of my time on the wrong race
 

Dony

King of Bugs
Map i didnt managed to win on 4 star/5 star as en elf against 8 ranged level 3 units, doesnt matter what units i have choosed, 6 lvl3 cannoneers can kill anything with defense reducing debuffs. This map should be excluded from map pool when we face all ranged enemies
 

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DeletedUser1596

Guest
Map i didnt managed to win on 4 star/5 star as en elf against 8 ranged level 3 units, doesnt matter what units i have choosed, 6 lvl3 cannoneers can kill anything with defense reducing debuffs. This map should be excluded from map pool when we face all ranged enemies

As a human, you wouldn't have much of a chance either. Even a priest cannot reach those cannons. I wonder what were the devs thinking about when making this terrain. :)
 

DeletedUser736

Guest
Map i didnt managed to win on 4 star/5 star as en elf against 8 ranged level 3 units, doesnt matter what units i have choosed, 6 lvl3 cannoneers can kill anything with defense reducing debuffs. This map should be excluded from map pool when we face all ranged enemies
I was looking at that map you posted. Considering that currently debuff are not working, as a human, 4 paladins and 1 rad mortar MIGHT have made it. It's hard to figure out without actually trying out, but placing the mortar on the top, you use it to fire at the enemy archer in the top right corner. After that, it boils down to how quick the enemy mortar thrash my own mortar, but it certainly buy a turn for the paladins to make it across the map. They have 70% def against heavy ranged, considering the mortar bought me one turn and weakened the archer, the paladin could trash the mortars in time, and there probably would have enough left to finish off the archer.

I never played the elf, as I have time to manage only one city, but I think I would have tried 5 sorceress. That move 4, so they can close the distance fairly quick, but that all I can think off, and I'm not saying that would be a good plan. I don't know if they have % defense against heavy range like the priest. If they don't that would probably not work.

And this map should be excluded from the map pool forever. It's the worse of the bunch. Either one side totally abuse the other side, or it makes a battle last 32something turn which is far from my definition of fun.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
for anyone who cares, elvenarchitect reveals heavy melee from mercenary camp
veteran guard (lvl3) - 2 movement, 2 attack range, 80% attack and defense bonus against heary ranged, 30% defense bonus against light melee, 30% defense debuff, which means that elves will get even stronger paladin equivalent and lets me think heavy ranged from MC will be equivalent to mortar so there is no big differences between races, not a bad thing for elfs tho.
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
So one year has passed since the battle redesign.
what do you guys think about it now after having to adapting to the changes.
Was it a good thing? bad thing? are the new units worth the wait? Is this now helping new players or only favouring the end tech players?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
So one year has passed since the battle redesign.
what do you guys think about it now after having to adapting to the changes.
Was it a good thing? bad thing? are the new units worth the wait? Is this now helping new players or only favouring the end tech players?

Good idea to have an evaluation now :)
I'm sorry to say but I'm still not happy with the new battle system.
Before I could still fight in provinces, even those who would now be marked "very hard". Not all the battles, but at least half. And that made it kind of fun, deciding which ones to battle, or being brave enough to try, and which one to cater. I've researched all the facultative upgrade unit sizes for that.
I also did alright in the tournaments.

After the implementation of the new battle system, I haven't been able to win a single fight in the provinces :( It's all catering now, which isn't any fun at all :rolleyes:
Tournaments are difficult, because silly me with my over-eagerly research of unit sizes :mad::mad::mad::mad:

The new units for Elves:
I happy with the doggies, although there power is starting to weaken now in the tournaments. But it did mean building another Barracks type for just 1 Unit.
Really bugged about the nerf on the Bud sorceress, she was doing fine before but is completely useless now. Sure we have the Blossom Mage instead, but that meant again building another Barracks type for just 1 Unit.
I don't use the other new units. I gave them a try after I researched them, but they just don't work for me.

So for me, the new battle system is a total bummer :(:(:(
 

DeletedUser1075

Guest
I am at a loss for why we need 3 buildings when none of the troops across the buildings seem very different in actual battle results. Occasionally I wonder if an Orc Strategist or a Frog is better than the Golem, but I can never really test to see it.

If Elvenar wants us to understand these units, they need to provide a simulator to test each so we can "see" the difference ourselves. Most battle games do this. Elvenar isn't supposed to be a battle game, but now we have 12 battle units to deal with.

Frankly, the whole battle thing is a huge distraction and annoyance from the rest of the game. I can't fight the provinces, so I just cater there. And I don't have the time for the tourneys, so I just auto-fight there. Yawn.
 

Deleted User - 60107

Guest
To be perfectly honest, most of the new units are useless.

If you are an elf:
- Blossom Mage is great, especially after the first upgrade, as it is the ONLY long-range mage unit Elves have. The Sorceress sucks ever since her range was decreased
- Rangers are also pretty good, after the first upgrade (before that they are too weak). They are actually better than Elven Archers if you are fighting a lot of mage units
- the Frogs are simply too weak. Maybe they will get better after the first upgrade, but right now the MAX damage of a squad of frogs is lower than the MIN damage of a squad of golems. The only advantage Frogs have is their long range (they are the only long-range Heavy unit Elves have), so their use is highly situational (usually when there are a lot of obstacles on the field)
- Drone Riders and Cerberus also have some situational use
- Valorian Guards have a range of 2 instead of 1, so they have some use, but so far they are just too weak. Maybe once we get to upgrade them...

Overall, for elves only a few of the new units are of real use.

If you are a human players:
- the Frogs are useless - Mortars are better AND they are fully upgrade before we even get the frogs!
- Same with Blossom Mages - we get the final Priest upgrade shortly after the Blossom mage
- Valorian Guards are ALSO useless for humans - we get Blessed Paladins long before we get Valorian Guards
- Rangers can be useful, for the same reason they are useful for elves
- Orc Strategists are useful, since they are the ONLY short-range Heavy Ranged unit humans have

Overall, the new units are even less useful for humans than they are for elves.



As for the new combat system: Good idea, but terrible execution. Especially the way the defense bonuses are calculated. For example, normally Elder Treants take 80% less damage from Heavy Ranged, but if an Enchantress hits them, the Elder Treants suddenly take just 8% less damage from Heavy Ranged. How is this calculated? No way to know because it is not explained anywhere in-game (it was explained somewhere in the forum some months ago, after the new battle system was released).

@Marindor When are we going to get an in-game explanation how unit bonuses work? If there already is such an explanation in-game: Where is it?
 

DeletedUser1596

Guest
  • Training units in 3 different buildings is pointless. A single larger building would be better, it could be upgraded with every race folowing it's architecture.
  • All new units are still level 1 or 2, which makes them useless. After a year. While needing 2 extra buildings. Sorry, but that's just retarded.
  • The unit "pentagram" works fine.
  • Since the units are not changing (unlike FoE), the battles became just a mindless routine.
  • Since catering was introduced, manual fighting is out of the game (for me and a few friends). Auto or cater. Time is money.
  • AWs boosting units' power looked promising, but since AWs are so aesily obtained, everyone has units boosted. This means noone is specialised in anything, every city is the same. Wasted potential.
 

DeletedUser1163

Guest
The only complaint I have is let us fight without trading Orcs. What kind of a person trades creatures, even if they're creepy to look at, to gain a province? If we could fight more instead of waiting until we get to the Goblin & Orcs chapter to negotiate, many of us Elvenar players would be able to gain more land expansions so we would have the space to build the extra military buildings we need for training new units, and for the awesome buildings we find in the events.
 

DeletedUser1657

Guest
Overall it has being positive.
  • The biggest criticism is the combat for starting players is broken, very hard province difficulty is a way of life in those chapters.
  • Fights are somewhat boring - Insert 5x key unit, hit auto fight = win in balanced fights
  • 3 buildings for production is ok. It is unnecessary to build the other 2 buildings so a person who doesn't want to learn the intricacies of the system can just continue as normal. Those wanting to explore the extra units are required to prioritise it in their design. You can also produce troops in one building while the others are upgrading allowing troop production 24/7
  • (something I think many forgot) Human gained a heavy ranged unit, something much needed for them
  • Elf Mage is still a very strong unit, handy in so many fights
  • Specialist units tech timing compared to barracks counterparts sees them less needed at certain times
  • Specialist units are great against target enemies, outperform barracks counterrparts
  • Subtleties in troops and selection provide some interest for those wishing to explore combat further than the basics
  • Still waiting on a solution to map impact on difficulty (if there ever is one)
 

DeletedUser1163

Guest
All ideas where it says "poll" (with yellow background) infront of the name have a voting system inside. You can either vote for or against them.
I don't see any ideas where it says "Poll." The only word that is highlighted is the word "Implemented." Anyone know where you look to vote?
 

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
personally i think the battle redesign took away all of the fun of the fighting.

I mainly base my conclusions on tournament ofcourse, since thats 90% of the combat that is in the game.
i picked elves over humans because of their fighting style, (low damage taken and low damage done), i didnt like humans cause you loose too many troops.
This also fitted lore perfectly since elves arent very fertile (because they live long (or are immortal)) while humans breed like rabbits.

Battle redesign pretty much made elves and humans alike now and its all about mass producing troops and sending them all to the slaughterhouses en masse.

I just did a manual fight today, with treants vs light melee orcs. Those used to be very fun as elves, since if you managed to debuff the enemy he only did 10% or even 0% damage to you. manual fighting was about strategy then, making sure you manage to debuff as many enemies as possible.
Yes fights took 20 or more turns often, but that was exactly the fun in the combat. Being able to make a strategy that allowed you to slowly kill the enemy.
Autocombat was impossible then, since the AI wasnt able to do the right strategy.

if you wiped in combat, you might have made a wrong move during combat somewhere, and you could just do the fight again with the exact same setup and manage to kill them that time by adjusting your strategy a little. Now thats unthinkable, if you wipe while fighting manually, its an unwinnable map and changing your setup or strategy wont make you win next time, it only results in you loosing another day of troop production.

Feels like they removed the thinking part of the game and just added a brainless zombiemode to it.

Today doing manual or autocombat only makes a little impact, expect to loose a lot of units in the later rounds of tournament, even if you use the perfect setup or strategy.


As for doing provincies on world map. If you stay in the targetted area of scouted provinces, combat is pretty easy since you fight with 25%-50% more troops then the enemy. In those cases its also not worth fighting manually since its so easy, that even the autocombat does a very good job.

my final conclusion is therefor, battle redesign pretty much removed combat from the game, and just made the game about autocombat and troops production.
 
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