[Discussion] Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

[SoggyShorts]

I have to agree. When I first started playing the game was advertised to me as a combination city-builder and turn-based combat game, and I loved both.
The combat system was totally unbalanced being able to debuff with trees or mages in order to take zero damage, but it sure was fun.

I think one of the huge mistakes the playerbase made after the initial battle changes was to pester the devs constantly for a better AI. Somehow no one clued in that both our troops and the enemy use the same AI, so making it better just screwed over manual fighting.
It would be way better if the AI was stupid, so that there was an actual advantage to being good at fighting.

 

[DeletedUser1596]

I lost my interest in combat somewhere else.
I'm quite active in tournaments, which means cca 200 - 300 fights per week. This is simply too much. It's either auto-combat or cater. Reducing the number of fights per province from 8 to 4 was a good move, but it's still a lot... for me.
If there were 10 times fewer fights with 10 times bigger armies, that would reduce overall number of fights per tournament to +-25, which would mean 5 major fights a day. That would be playable on manual. (I know it's probably not acceptable.)

It's a shame such a well made feature like a manual combat is often ignored.

 

[Dony]

its too soon for evaluation, we still need plenty of unit upgrades to have a whole picture, more combat options will open later on
i am more or less satisfied with changes, i would change few bonuses here and there and few numbers here and there tho

manual fighting was about strategy then, making sure you manage to debuff as many enemies as possible.
Yes fights took 20 or more turns often, but that was exactly the fun in the combat. Being able to make a strategy that allowed you to slowly kill the enemy.
Autocombat was impossible then, since the AI wasnt able to do the right strategy.

if you wiped in combat, you might have made a wrong move during combat somewhere, and you could just do the fight again with the exact same setup and manage to kill them that time by adjusting your strategy a little. Now thats unthinkable, if you wipe while fighting manually, its an unwinnable map and changing your setup or strategy wont make you win next time, it only results in you loosing another day of troop production.

i dont agree with this, manual fighting is still a lot about of right strategy, maybe different kind of strategy, unwinable maps are winable with great loses but with better unit upgrades and better AWs it will be better

Training units in 3 different buildings is pointless. A single larger building would be better, it could be upgraded with every race folowing it's architecture.

this would make for non fighters to waste more space in a city since 2 other buildings you can delete and have more free space

I think one of the huge mistakes the playerbase made after the initial battle changes was to pester the devs constantly for a better AI. Somehow no one clued in that both our troops and the enemy use the same AI, so making it better just screwed over manual fighting.

i am pretty sure i was vocal about it a lot, like that people want sorcs to have 4 range which would buff enchantress back to oblivion and i still believe its better this way

It's a shame such a well made feature like a manual combat is often ignored.

its ignored and still will be because it requires time, which nobody has, its much faster to just negotiate or autocombat
the question is if manual combat should be more rewarding or not since it require a lot of more time

 

[SoggyShorts]

It could be that fights on the world map are balanced very well, and that the fighting is not only possible, but rewarding as well.
The problem is I'll never know because it is still way better to skip all optional SS techs. In the long run you'll eventually hit the 457 province cap (as some players already have) and then the only reason for wanting a large SS is gone(forever?)
@jps54 and I are both at the end of the tech tree. I have a SS of 1629, and his is 2346.
So from now until forever his losses will 44% higher than mine in tournaments, and since he has hit the 457 province cap there is zero advantage for him.

i am pretty sure i was vocal about it a lot, like that people want sorcs to have 4 range which would buff enchantress back to oblivion and i still believe its better this way

But that doesn't have to be the case.
Both sorceress and enchantress had range of 4.
This caused the enemy enchantress to be able to kill you before the fight even started.
Players asked for the enchantress' range to be reduced.
Inno reduced the range on BOTH.
They could have reduced the range on the enemy and kept our range at 4, they don't have to be the same unit.
Priests are different from Enchantresses, so Sorcs can be too.

its too soon for evaluation, we still need plenty of unit upgrades to have a whole picture, more combat options will open later on

Unless those upgrades and wonders are inserted into earlier chapters, those upcoming changes won't effect 90% of players for a very very long time, if ever.
The vast majority of players are not at the end of the tech tree, so the system as it is today is what they will have to work with.
It's like the flaws in fighting for the very early chapters, if you are facing a mix of unit types when all you have is barbarians and crossbowmen, knowing that you will unlock a new unit sometime in the next chapter doesn't help.

 

[Dony]

and then the only reason for wanting a large SS is gone(forever?)

SS increases output of military AWs, so you getting less free units, there actually exist some invisible line in a future where having max SS and max AWs will benefit you more then skiping it, i am not sure if we ever reach that point but there is some light

But that doesn't have to be the case.

unfortunately development in INNO doesnt work like that else we would have 2 sets of buildings like you are proposing in other thread instead of 1 changed set of buildings for all

 

[SoggyShorts]

SS increases output of military AWs

Right, I forgot about the wonders producing based on SS.
Still, increasing the # of free units from those by 44% can't make up for 44% higher losses in tournaments in the foreseeable future.
EDIT: I looked into it, and even if all 3 wonders were level 25, I'm still way better off with smaller SS.
With 1629 SS I'd make 300 stacks per week total troops
With 2346 SS I'd make 200 stacks per week total troops.

 

[DeletedUser1596]

@SoggyShorts : That's exactly what I meant when I was complaining about tournament difficulty in other thread a few days ago.

@Dony : If you are really into tournaments and fight throught many battles, then you lose progresively more and more units the further you are from your city. It is not a problem to kill about 150.000 units in a single tournament, so if what Soggy says is right, then I would have saved almost 50.000 units with SS left unresearched. Now compare this number to a unit production of AWs.
You can say, that the more you fight, the more you suffer from being technologically advanced. The devs somehow overlooked this when making this battle system. And then they overlooked it when testing on beta. And when people complained here on forum. And kept overlooking for a few months on live servers.

 

[DeletedUser1657]

You can say, that the more you fight, the more you suffer from being technologically advanced. The devs somehow overlooked this when making this battle system. And then they overlooked it when testing on beta. And when people complained here on forum. And kept overlooking for a few months on live servers.

While I agree with the concerns, the tournament update was not part of the battle re-design and was part of the tournament re-design an update that came later.

 

[DeletedUser1163]

I took to this game like a bee to honey. The Elvenar battlefield reminds me of playing Chess, my favorite board game. Still prefer fighting to rid Elvenar of roaming and dangerous creatures, rather than negotiating. The new battle system definitely slowed a lot of us down but not before we reached Ring 10. Now encroaching on Ring 11, battles are nearly impossible, especially if you are not up to the Orcs chapter yet.

But all is not lost. The game devs created Fellowship Tournaments, listened to our complaints, and improved the tournaments. That is where I do most of my battles now.

Fellowship Tournaments I no longer hate. We now have 4 encounters/province, instead of 8.​

You will need a formidable force to defeat the two new creatures Elvenar has spawned - The Devilish Enchantress and the Sinister Cerberus. Yiiii!

Here are a few tips I’ve discovered to help win battles. Hopefully this will encourage you to Never give up. Never surrender.

PLACEMENT OF TROOPS ON BATTLEFIELD
Place units in starting positions that work against the enemy starting positions. I’ve found the best formation when defending against a Cerberus, who likes to attack the unit in the middle. Place Golems/Mortars in the first three slots and your Mages (and/or Treants/Paladins) in the last two slots when choosing units for battle.

You can enter battle and leave it without any consequences by surrendering. Use it to check the battle terrain! On the battlefield, keep an eye on the line up, try to target the enemy unit next in line, and use the terrain to your advantage. Most important, never go up against enemy units that outnumber you.

AUTO BATTLING
It’s so cool to watch when you choose the right units to take into battle. After you click Fight, give the order “Finish Battle Automatically!” Then sit back, watch your troops move on the battlefield by themselves, see how well they’ve been trained, and if they’re strong enough to fight without your help. It’s cool to watch, as long as they’re winning.

Be careful hitting auto-battle. Once you press that button you can’t stop
the fight, if your troops are being pummeled by the enemy's might.​

STRIKE FIRST
“Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." Your troops will inflict more damage if you strike first. You will see. But then again, some province creatures can retaliate.

RESEARCH & UPGRADE
Research promotions and Advanced Scouts. Upgrade your Barracks and Armories to increase training speed and squad size. Build Ancient Wonders to increase the health and strength of your troops.

ORCS BEWARE
When Orcs are around, who you gonna call? Golems! Golems don’t like Orcs. What you have to worry about is getting them bunched up together. Golems won’t attack if they can’t move or maybe they just don’t want to hit their fellow Golems in the heads with their rocks.

 

[DeletedUser1163]

For the Gems Tournament:

You're always learning different battle tactics in Elvenar. For the Humans out there, I've found using these units are great battling Heavy Ranged & Heavy Melee. You know what they are? 2 Mortars & 3 Vallorian Guards.

Give the order to Finish Battle Automatically and you’ll see how well they work together.

Well you’re saying that’s fine for the Humans but we elves don’t have Mortars. You have Sorceresses. Just bring in your spell casters to wreak havoc on the battlefield. The Vallorian Guards will be thankful and might invite your Sorceress and Banshee to relax in their hot tub.

NO VALLORIAN GUARDS? NO PROBLEM.
The Vallorian Guards are Heavy Melee Units who can Strike Back. They also can attack one space away and won’t get a retaliation hit unless the enemy unit can strike back. They look so cool, if you like slimy, scaly creatures. I don't care as long as they're helping and not eating my troops in battle.

If you do not have any of these lizard warriors in your city, Elves can bring into battle Treants and Humans can take along some Paladins (Blessed Paladins are better), both of which can strike back, if they’re level 2.

 

[Dony]

SS increases output of military AWs, so you getting less free units, there actually exist some invisible line in a future where having max SS and max AWs will benefit you more then skiping it, i am not sure if we ever reach that point but there is some light

It appears that it wasnt so distant future, it is possible to reach squad size in Elementals chapters wich makes tournament easier for fighters (for people who didnt skip any SSU), either it was intentional from the start or decided at a later date I welcome this change.
I am not going to recommend now to research all SSU, because it can be a bug, but i doubt it, i will have to see the difference in other harder tournaments how this change affected it tho.

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

It appears that it wasnt so distant future, it is possible to reach squad size in Elementals chapters wich makes tournament easier for fighters (for people who didnt skip any SSU), either it was intentional from the start or decided at a later date I welcome this change.

Could you explain what you mean? I'm not sure I understand...

 

[DeletedUser1657]

@Marindor The battle system has been in place for sometime now and the difficulty of provincial combat in chapters 2-4 is well known among players as the hardest in the game. This is obviously a shock for new players, do you know if there is any attention to rectifying this problem that will occur?

The change to add difficulty ratings to provinces was great, but it highlights this issue even more obviously now than before as new players get a sea of red provinces before they can complete the number of required provinces to reach the next chapter.

 

[SoggyShorts]

It appears that it wasnt so distant future, it is possible to reach squad size in Elementals chapters which makes tournament easier for fighters (for people who didnt skip any SSU

Unless the calculation changes, I don't understand how.
Right now the formula is
province number*5% = your SS in tournament
and
your tournament SS*0.85+15*stars = enemy SS in tournament

What changes in elementals? Researching an SS somehow increases your Tournament SS, but doesn't increase the enemies? But only if you've never skipped an SS? Smells buggy to me too.

 

[Marindor]

The battle system has been in place for sometime now and the difficulty of provincial combat in chapters 2-4 is well known among players as the hardest in the game. This is obviously a shock for new players, do you know if there is any attention to rectifying this problem that will occur?

As far as I know, no. Performance has been monitored closely after the changes and still is monitored continuesly and it is in line with our expectations, so I don't think we should expect any changes here

 

[DeletedUser1657]

Thank you for the response.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Spoiler: I finally found one!

 

[DeletedUser1163]

I guess some of us were lucky when we first discovered Elvenar and were able to fight through the provinces with ease, acquiring many land expansions. Then the new battle system was activated and all of us came to an abrupt halt. I thought I was lucky to get so far ahead but now I regret it because the Orcs and Goblins have not yet arrived. The Orcs are needed to fight in the Very Hard Provinces. The game developers must know what they're doing so fellow Elvenar players, slow down, play ball with your Cerberus or fly off to some distant land and let your dragon make friends (or terrorize) the local inhabitants.

 

[DeletedUser1163]

If you are really into tournaments and fight throught many battles, then you lose progresively more and more units the further you are from your city. It is not a problem to kill about 150.000 units in a single tournament, so if what Soggy says is right, then I would have saved almost 50.000 units with SS left unresearched. Now compare this number to a unit production of AWs.
You can say, that the more you fight, the more you suffer from being technologically advanced. The devs somehow overlooked this when making this battle system.

Are you saying we should not research Shrewdy Shrooms? I am assuming that's what SS stands for. I hate acronyms.

 

[Deleted User - 60107]

SS, in this context, stands for Squad Size Upgrades.