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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Thank you :) Have you an idea of how many forest warden squads did you lose and how many more than in real with the same tournament results (i.e. about same provinces/stars)?
Squads are not a good unit to count losses in new tournaments, since tournament SS is not connected to your barracks SS anymore. + I was using more ELR buildings in old steel tourneys (now a need them for every tourney and not once 9 weeks) and never used manual fight (now almost all 10+ provinces were manual fights). + I never used Forest Wardens on old steel tourneys since I researched them recently (And any other MC units too, I had no MC at all back then).
With all those differences I lost like x2 more troops than in previous steel tourney.
 

DeletedUser1657

Guest
@Marindor Is there any work planned in relation to the chests for fellowships to earn? Your recent announcements changed the top end points from 5000 to 2500, which is what was implemented at the start. So for a fellowship of 25 players hitting that is 62,500 points plus what ever extra the super hard core players can get on top. That is an awful long way of the majority of the bonus chests added to the game.

Also was it intentional to make this another spire? I really dislike the fact that this is looking just like the spire. High costs, same basic formula in cost and minimal difference in scores. This sort of thing places a huge amount of pressure on players in fellowships to always perform every single week. The current set-up allows players to have "off" weeks to handle issues of life knowing that others can do enough to compensate for them. With the current pandemic the need for this is higher than ever. This ability to have a rest week worked well for a casual player but is less attainable now.

I will really miss the tournament being a different thing to the spire. I really like both but if they are too similar it will get boring before too long. Far more so than an event ever will as the frequency is 2 per week not 1 a month or every other month.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
@Marindor Is there any work planned in relation to the chests for fellowships to earn? Your recent announcements changed the top end points from 5000 to 2500, which is what was implemented at the start. So for a fellowship of 25 players hitting that is 62,500 points plus what ever extra the super hard core players can get on top. That is an awful long way of the majority of the bonus chests added to the game.

Also was it intentional to make this another spire? I really dislike the fact that this is looking just like the spire. High costs, same basic formula in cost and minimal difference in scores. This sort of thing places a huge amount of pressure on players in fellowships to always perform every single week. The current set-up allows players to have "off" weeks to handle issues of life knowing that others can do enough to compensate for them. With the current pandemic the need for this is higher than ever. This ability to have a rest week worked well for a casual player but is less attainable now.

I will really miss the tournament being a different thing to the spire. I really like both but if they are too similar it will get boring before too long. Far more so than an event ever will as the frequency is 2 per week not 1 a month or every other month.

Hmm have to agree with that, got a message form a player 2 weeks ago if she could be MIA for a single week in the spire, or if she had to force herself to come online due RL obligations. I was shocked about the display of pressure this person seem to have felt towards the group as we have plenty of room in the spire as is.

I similarly had another message this week for the tournament due to RL issues.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
It looks like
  • Casual players (the majority according to Inno) are happy about the big UI improvement which is fusionning 4 encounters into 1 and don't care about balancing changes
  • "Hardcore players" show the game balance is broken and thus don't want the changes to go live.
So no one is happy about the balancing changes.
 

Marindor

Well-Known Member
@Marindor Is there any work planned in relation to the chests for fellowships to earn? Your recent announcements changed the top end points from 5000 to 2500, which is what was implemented at the start. So for a fellowship of 25 players hitting that is 62,500 points plus what ever extra the super hard core players can get on top. That is an awful long way of the majority of the bonus chests added to the game.

No, for now they work as intended. Bonus Chests are meant to be very challenging to achieve, and thus have an increasing amount of points required to reach them. Being a long-term challenge, we don't expect even the most dedicated Tournament Fellowships to finish all Chests in the first weeks after release.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
So, still no change in the determination of the base player squad size (what I call the MinMax equation) or in difficulty (the ratio of enemy to player troops and catering cost based on province number and round)? Just changes in the troop mix faced and a rebalance of the type goods for catering. While those changes are nice, they don't address what many, if not most, in the forum consider the two core issues. I can only hope the statistics being collected will be used to address those issues and we will see them here soon so they can be tweaked over a few tourneys in beta before this new system is released to live.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
So, still no change in the determination of the base player squad size
For this one there has been a change :
Quote for the release notes :
"We reduced the impact of regular and premium Expansions in the difficulty calculations for Tournaments and the Spire of Eternity. Premium Expansions have had their impact reduced even more than regular expansions." But they didn't give more details.
 

Aeva

Well-Known Member
display of pressure
Obviously we have that to in our live world group. We are a top-fellowship as is yours. It means that there are requirements to meet when you join (like +1600 tournamentpoints) and you have to go along with growth (like the golden spire).
I try to anticipate with a message like: 'we know it's the holidays, please let us know when you are not or less available and don't worry about the points'. Besides that there is little we can do about pressure. All members in the FS have a commitment to the group. Nobody likes to let the others down.
My worry is that the more casual members will thrive in the new tournaysystem and the high performing ones will not as much. That means that the balance is not right anymore. The topplayers will no longer be able to sustain the others if necessary due to IRL issues.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
The new tournaments are coming to Live EN next week. There always seems an air of finality once something hits the Live servers, although they tell us that this only applies to EN - So we will act as like a Beta Mk 2.

However hard tournaments are getting, I've ceased being too concerned. All I really still want to know is - can all expansions be placed and AWs upgraded without risk of either having a net negative impact? The answer, I think, is still no to both. So this isn't a question of how difficult they are getting or how we are being rewarded less, it's a matter of an element of the game being broken if there can be no tangiable positive effect from upgrading the AWs that have little or no impact on tournaments.

Thankfully at least a step has been taken with regard to expansions, but I've heard no mention so far of whether the Ancient Wonder situation is being considered.
I had a look at the top fellowships on the EN server and with just a quick look, it looked to me that about 100 players will be getting a violent laceration to their tournament ability, a huge cut. It just seems to me that if you take the top 100 players and then take 100 players in the say 1600 score range and compare them, I bet the resource curve for inno is that 80-90% of their resources come from the top 10-20% of the players, with only 10-20% coming from the rest. This change is brainless, half-witted, moronic, and simply dumb. It is insulting to players who have spent money on the game and I can't see it being anything but harmful to the future of the game in terms of the bottom line as good players like Warrior quit, or simply stop spending because they feel violated.

Squads are not a good unit to count losses in new tournaments, since tournament SS is not connected to your barracks SS anymore. + I was using more ELR buildings in old steel tourneys (now a need them for every tourney and not once 9 weeks) and never used manual fight (now almost all 10+ provinces were manual fights). + I never used Forest Wardens on old steel tourneys since I researched them recently (And any other MC units too, I had no MC at all back then).
With all those differences I lost like x2 more troops than in previous steel tourney.
Wow, forced into manual battle and double the losses. Did you go out as far as the previous steel tournament you made the comparison to?

No, for now they work as intended. Bonus Chests are meant to be very challenging to achieve, and thus have an increasing amount of points required to reach them. Being a long-term challenge, we don't expect even the most dedicated Tournament Fellowships to finish all Chests in the first weeks after release.
Looks like Warrior had the right idea right from the start. Game slaughter was intended. This is an outrageous level of disregard for players.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Wow, forced into manual battle and double the losses. Did you go out as far as the previous steel tournament you made the comparison to?
+- the same, my military buildings expired before I managed to get all provinces to 5*, so 2 of them are just 2*. Also I used more +HP buildings, was lucky in spire last week.
Also, old steel tourney was way easier because it was focused on heavy melee and there was no lr/hr enemies at all, now it is focused on mages and has 20% of lr/hr which hits can't be avoided as easy.
 
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DeletedUser1953

Guest
We are still considering the general balancing, of which AW levels are a small part as well. It's hard to give an advise on which AW's would be beneficial for your game play. Some AW's might not directly influence tournaments, but will save you so much space you'd need for e.g. residences or workshops without these AW's, that this freed up space does give you the ability to place extra buildings like Armories or Manufactories, which do influence your Tournament performance, so in the end having them does contribute to making the tournaments and Spire easier for you. That's a decision you can only make for yourself.
But why in first place, AW is taken into the calculation, it becomes AW not so wonderfull ^^
And stop to say "small part ", 333 level AW -> double the cost ! (2x is not small !)
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
...and a rebalance of the type goods for catering.
By the way, anyone remembers the claim that the new format reduced catering costs in half? Half of what - I don't know, but that's a whole another issue. So this is how it actually went:

- Changed goods requirements in the new format, let's assume it is half of something. But we also got massive orcs and mana requirements that were not a thing before
- Outrage ensues, so they reduced orcs and mana requirements. But it is not done on the amount, it is done in terms of probabilities. Probabilities have this thing that they just have to add to 100%. So your regular goods requirements are - again - increasing in a non-trivial way
- ???
- Profit?

Do you think the catering costs are still half - whatever that baseline for half is?
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
By the way, anyone remembers the claim that the new format reduced catering costs in half? Half of what - I don't know, but that's a whole another issue. So this is how it actually went:

- Changed goods requirements in the new format, let's assume it is half of something. But we also got massive orcs and mana requirements that were not a thing before
- Outrage ensues, so they reduced orcs and mana requirements. But it is not done on the amount, it is done in terms of probabilities. Probabilities have this thing that they just have to add to 100%. So your regular goods requirements are - again - increasing in a non-trivial way
- ???
- Profit?

Do you think the catering costs are still half - whatever that baseline for half is?
I may have understood wrong, but I thought it was add together the old cost to cater all four encounters and then divide that total in half for the new catering cost.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
Since new cost doesn't depend on squad size like old one you can't directly compare them.
It's even have different balance between T1-2-3, not talking about resources that was added.
Now you don't need to have ~ equal amount of goods production per tier for tourney, you need much more T1 and much less T3.
 

DeletedUser3314

Guest
@MinMax Gamer :
CityRaceDateChapterExpansionsNext Premium CostChapter ProgressTotal AW LevelsT1 Boost%T2 Boost%T3 Boost%maxBMAPVnStarnProvTSSoTSSeCoinsSuppliesT1T2
NL1E2020-08-1132145010214%241%241%4100211133301020194
NL1E2020-08-1132145010214%241%241%4100211253201140287
NL1E2020-08-1132145010214%241%241%4100211361001890355
NL1E2020-08-1132145010214%241%241%4100211499002800560
NL1E2020-08-1132145010214%241%241%41002115164002770719
NL1E2020-08-1232145010214%241%241%4100212140801250236
NL1E2020-08-1232145010214%241%241%4100212264201380370
NL1E2020-08-1232145010214%241%241%4100212375002300436
NL1E2020-08-1232145010214%241%241%41002124120003430674
NL1E2020-08-1232145010214%241%241%410021251990031301090
NL1E2020-08-1332145010214%241%241%4100213147401470283
NL1E2020-08-1332145010214%241%241%4100213276001620420
NL1E2020-08-1332145010214%241%241%4100213388002720508
NL1E2020-08-1332145010214%241%241%41002134142004020799
NL1E2020-08-1332145010214%241%241%410021352300036201280
 

DeletedUser3314

Guest
Compared to
CityRaceDateChapterExpansionsNext Premium CostChapter ProgressTotal AW LevelsT1 Boost%T2 Boost%T3 Boost%maxBMAPVnStarnProvTSSoTSSeCoinsSuppliesT1T2
ZZ1E2020-08-1132145010200%200%200%41002111102130034
ZZ1E2020-08-1132145010200%200%200%410021121036625
ZZ1E2020-08-1132145010200%200%200%4100211315639004937
ZZ1E2020-08-1132145010200%200%200%4100211420115200100
ZZ1E2020-08-1132145010200%200%200%410021152516650124
ZZ1E2020-08-1132145010241%200%241%410021163023770077074
ZZ1E2020-08-1232145010241%200%241%4100212110326003325
ZZ1E2020-08-1232145010241%200%241%4100212215639098
ZZ1E2020-08-1232145010241%200%241%410021232011----
ZZ1E2020-08-1232145010241%200%241%41002124251616262
ZZ1E2020-08-1232145010254%200%254%41002125302319474
ZZ1E2020-08-1232145010254%200%254%41002126353122086
ZZ1E2020-08-1332145010254%200%254%410021311569837
ZZ1E2020-08-1332145010254%200%254%41002132201165100
ZZ1E2020-08-1332145010254%200%254%41002133251665008162
ZZ1E2020-08-1332145010254%200%254%41002134302397148
ZZ1E2020-08-1332145010254%200%254%4100213535319000220
ZZ1E2020-08-1332145010254%200%254%4100213640391000013099
 

guivou

Well-Known Member
quite different indeed : but i rather prefer old version, on beta i have a level 3 city and i struggle for t2 : with spire, tech, building and now tournament it's impossible to do all , but i have plenty of coin and tools ... and after last marble tournament my T1 boost is over 300% T2 required is much than you 17 , 34 , 51 , 67 ....

T2 must not be used so earlier .in tournament ...
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
By the way, anyone remembers the claim that the new format reduced catering costs in half? Half of what - I don't know, but that's a whole another issue. So this is how it actually went:

- Changed goods requirements in the new format, let's assume it is half of something. But we also got massive orcs and mana requirements that were not a thing before
- Outrage ensues, so they reduced orcs and mana requirements. But it is not done on the amount, it is done in terms of probabilities. Probabilities have this thing that they just have to add to 100%. So your regular goods requirements are - again - increasing in a non-trivial way
- ???
- Profit?

Do you think the catering costs are still half - whatever that baseline for half is?
Actually when I saw this claim I thought that average catering costs per squad size would be halved. So then, I looked at catering costs reported by two players in beta and live for a whole tournament with similar total squad size, and here were the results before this week's changes :
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/tournament-changes-post-release.15204/post-88487
So T1 catering costs had been roughly divided by 3, T2 by 4, T3 by 5 and orc costs had been doubled. And for mana, coins and supplies it's ×infinity as there were no cost before :p
With this week's changes we're closer to /2 for all, but still not there.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
By the way, anyone remembers the claim that the new format reduced catering costs in half? Half of what - I don't know, but that's a whole another issue. So this is how it actually went:
So long as we're getting onto initial claims - how about the one that said the benefit of every AW level will always outweigh the impact of the extra difficulty it creates.
 
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