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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

DeletedUser1953

Guest
A lot of discussion but Inno does not progress :
- For me, premium player must not be affected, the coefficient need to 0 (gouv. takes 20%, apple/google/... 30% and Inno add a penalty !!)
- The problem with mana (mainly for player at sorcerer)
- The problem with orcs. It is general problem for player > XIV (create ugly city with vast field of armories/orc's event building is absurd)
- The randomess of battles
- The weakness of melee troup
- The exponentiation component (change the formula (chapter based+progression) or change the production of a lot buildings !)
 

ErestorX

Well-Known Member
But on the other hand you get a 100% increase in troop production, a 40% damadge boost to both LR and LM and 1,5 squads of mages every 3h.
So yes, these wonders will clearly benefit you a lot more than they cost.
The Flying Academy will benefit me definitely a lot more than it costs. That is true for all levels up to 35. The reason is that I need way more troops from mercenary camp than from the other 2 buildings. Needles up to 30 is probably worth it as well, because I use a lot of rangers and more damage is definitely very important to win the provinces beyond 30 or so in the new tournament.

But victory springs is not clear at all for me. One reason is, that I don't know how useful LM will be in the new tournament, I hardly use it in the spire. The second problem is, that I don't know how valuable additional troops from training grounds will be in the future.

But what I do know is, that I will get far lower increase in troop production than you assume. The reason is that I produce the majority of my troops with time boosters. Let's assume I will use them all on mercenary camp in the future and lets further assume that I use only a sustainable 504 h of boosters every week.

Building the victory springs should effectively reduce the number of troops from mercenary camp by about 5-9% depending on the other wonders I have. That would be 20-36% of the normal 7x24 production including flying academy 35. Assuming the same base speed for all 3 buildings that corresponds to 42,4-76% of weekly training grounds production without victory springs. Add the 10-18% reduced production from barracks and the fact that the troops from mercenary camp are much more valuable than the rest and it is not clear at all.

But for at least 6 month I could easily double the amount of boosters used if that should help me to play more provinces in the new tournament. That would make it clear despite of the uncertainties I mentioned - I would be better of without victory springs! Consequently I have stopped levelling victory springs on live since the new tournament was announced.
 
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little bee

Well-Known Member
But what I do know is, that I will get far lower increase in troop production than you assume. The reason is that I produce the majority of my troops with time boosters.
O.k. time boosters are a fair point. But as you calculated yourselve, those "sustainable" 504h of boosters would still leave the production boost above the penalty. And you have to assume that the LM boost is practically worthless. At that point it's not so much a problem with the progression formula as a problem with the balance between the troops.
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
end game players represent 100% of players, except those who stall voluntarily
we consider that it's a bad game design if people do stall voluntarily, or even if there is a legitimate reason to consider it
That claim is totally wrong! It´s in the ballpark of "I´m rich, so I represent all, becourse everyone dreams of becomming rich" :rolleyes:
That said, there should always be an incentative to progress trough the game.

I know, that I in some of the following will be repeating myself, but so does many other ppl :p
1) Being an end-game player, is NOT the same as being good in tournament.

2) Becomming better in tournament is NOT the only progression. Many also put value in having many ranking points.

3) Some comments claim the "small" players, that applaud the changes, are only thinking about themselves (and should be ashamed). Well the same could be said about the "hardcore" tournament players, so drop the hypocracy :mad:

4) If some AWs don´t give a benefit, then I have a couple of solutions.
A) Alter the stats/abilities. This has been done many times before, and can be done again.
B) Make ppl able to put their AWs in storage. I know INNO have said, that it ain´t technially possible. It has fixed values on level, so they should be able to find a solution. Two things has to be made though: No building a new one, if you have one in storage. All progression made (KP/shards spend), that haven/t given a level are lost. I think this would give some protests, and is the main reason "it`s technially impossible".

5) I think there has been too much whining: We can´t use our KP without damaging our tournament effort. We can´t get enough KP to improve our tournament effort. We can´t learn anything about manual fighting from province X, becourse it´s to easy. Province X+1 is too hard. We have to build troops in all 3 facilities, to get enough troops. We can´t use the troops from certain facilities to anything. AWs producing seeds are worthless. They should remove seeds from spire. And so on. While most of if holds merit for the single player in his current situation, it´s still pretty diverse :p

6) Many of the complaints about the formular have adressed the impact of AW-levels and expansions. You can discuss the weight each level/expansion should have. And it is a relevant discusion. But in my opinion the mandatory research is a bigger topic, when it gives the same % increase in tournament squadsize all the way. Also if you want to play the game "as it is intented to be played", then you have no choise. Not being in chapter 16 and/or have made any calculations, then I have to relay on the calculations of others. From what I can gather, the production of troops, goods and many other things don´t match the increased demand. This is not solely a spire/tournament issue, although the numerical impact is greatest here (if you do tournament/spire). I think a more general discusion about chapter-chapter difficulty would be relevant :)
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
Right. It just sounds as if @little bee is talking most of the time from the point of view the Inno devs must have. That is: a lot of the arguments and counterarguments are logical if that would be the case.
Frankly I´ve thought along the same lines. I see no problem in it. As I said earlier as response to a post from one the moderators: Comments on others opinions is also feedback.
If it was the case (not saying it is), don´t INNO have the right to debunk some of the "urban legends"?
The answers to @little bee posts has been more constructive, than "they´re punishing the paying customers", "if they don´t scrap the current formular, they´ll loose all income", and much more in that ballpark. All in all: opinions and guesswork served as undisputeable truth o_O
Those who strongly agree, will see it as law of nature.
Those who strongly disagree, will see it as lies and fake news.
Both of these groups are "argument resistant", and can´t be swayed in any way.
Those with a truely open mind, will listen to all arguments, and then form their own opinion :cool:
It´s the responses from these ppl, that are usefull to INNO, and have any chance of altering anything ;)

PS. Just to clarify: I´m a selfrightious jerk, but not a pawn of INNO. A usefull idiot maybe, but not a pawn :p
 

Aeva

Well-Known Member
Frankly I´ve thought along the same lines. I see no problem in it.
I do not see it as a problem either. It just occured to me that thinking along the lines of Inno would explain certain statements that I felt were misplaced in the discussion. And just like you @galrond, I think in the end there were a lot of usefull comments on little bees statements to clarify with reasonable arguments some of the statements of betaplayers.
 

Salador

Well-Known Member
We are currently aiming to release the new Tournaments to Elvenar International (EN) on the 18th of August. This will also allow us to extend the amount of people playing the new Tournaments greatly, meaning even more feedback, as well as technical testing on a larger scale. The new Tournaments will not go to further Live worlds than EN for at least another 3 weeks after the start of the first new Tournament on EN
Shouldn't the new tournament hit live worlds by now?
@Marindor any news?
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@Salador As far as I know, they extended beta+EN only for 3 more weeks.
My guess is to test if they don't loose too many paying players.
So enjoy last 3 weeks (this included) of the old tournament while you still can.
Especialy if your tournament score is high or you do the only 2 rounds and many provinces combination.
Both won't be possible, unless you are wiling to spend even more time by doing manual fighting like Dony is.
My strategy is to give up on high scores with exception of 2 tournaments for relics needed for 24/7 MM spell creation (in my main live city, on beta I don't care and play only for 10th chest (1600 p)).
 

little bee

Well-Known Member
@Aeva First of all, I am not in any way, shape or form related to INNO. But you are probably right, I was trying to play devils advocate. That does not mean I don't belive what I said, because I do. But I did try to present my opinion in as controversial a way as possible, because I feel that this is the most effective way to lead a usefull discussion.

@galrond Thank you for your comment. We do seem to have clearly established that there several places where the formula does not work. But anything more in that direction would take a massive amount of chapter by chapter, resource by resource and wonder by wonder number crunching. If anyone is interested in that, it should be moved to a new thread.

And to return to the actual purpose of this thread, here is some feedback from me. Not math, not universal truth, not lies, just my own personal opinion.
1) I love the reduction to 1 fight per province. For me the main reason to play the tournament is not KP,spells or relicts, but the fun I have doing manual combat. However currently there are too many fights to be fun. I hope that this change at least will be implemented on all live worlds as soon as possible.
2) I like the fact that catering is becoming more of an aternative. I do, however, feel that both catering and autofight are boring. I would love to see a minigame for it, like we do in the spire.
3) I am glad that the KP gain from tournament is being drastically reduced. I have never even played to province 20, but it still felt like I was getting to many KP. I have in fact stalled my game on live. Not because I was afraid of damaging my tournament score, but because it felt like I was moving to fast. I want to be able to see my city grow slowly and enjoy the architecture of each new race before moving on to the next.
And the redicoulusly high KP demand in chapter 16 shows that a high KP gain for some players can create balancing issues for everyone.
4) I do not particulary like the random battles. I do not hate them either, but I prefered the way it was before.
5) I like the increase in difficulty between provinces. It means that our succes will not be determined only by how many troops we have, but also by how good we are at manual combat.
6) I feel that the troops may need to be rebalanced. Every kind of troop should be the best possible troop in some situations. At the moment this does not apear to be the case.
 
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Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
I like the fact that catering is becoming more of an aternative.
For you maybe, for me it simply is not an option due to the newly introduced resources (mainly coins with capped storage and enourmous prices in ch16 (25-30% of MAX capacity for a single upgrade is the norm)) and due to the raising costs in orcs.

I have never even played to province 20
That might be the reason why you like the changes so much, because they didn't hurt you much (if they did).

but it still felt like I was getting to many KP
Have you ever been in the latest chapters - especialy in the ch16 with it's enourmous KP requirements for each research (250KP is the norm = that's over 10 days for each research without any additional influx of KPs)? Probably not, otherwise you would have never written this statement.
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Shouldn't the new tournament hit live worlds by now?
@Marindor any news?
I know that some things are still being investigated and analyzed and therefore the tournaments haven't been pushed further yet. As I mentioned before, we're taking the time to consider everything very carefully and will only push it to Live once we're certain everything turns out as expected. The technical testing and first feedback has been run on Beta first. Now we added EN as well to also measure how a Live environment responds/reacts to the changes, and to get a clear picture of that, we need a bit more testing time in some areas. For example: In the first week(s) everyone wants to try it out, so participation will be a bit higher and players will probably get a bit further than normally because they're more actively testing. After the first few weeks that settles down a bit and we'll be able to get a better view on the actual status and things like impact on resource stocks in the long term and stuff like that. When everyone has a lot of resources in stock, they'll probably cater provinces more easily than when these stocks get less, and the same goes for unit productions. Right now we need a bit more testing time to calculate long term impact of things like that before being able to decide if the balancing is resulting in an expected situation or not.
 

little bee

Well-Known Member
Have you ever been in the latest chapters - especialy in the ch16 with it's enourmous KP requirements for each research (250KP is the norm = that's over 10 days for each research without any additional influx of KPs)? Probably not, otherwise you would have never written this statement.
That was actually my point. Those KP demands are not god-given. The developers have a basic guideline on how long a chapter is supposed to take and then design the chapter accordingly. I think my current chapter was designed without the tournament KPs in mind. But I do have these KP and quite a lot of portal profits as well. The result is that the chapter feels to short. I feel like I don't have the time to appretiate the beaty of each new building. That is why I have started to actively stall.

Chapter 16, however, was designed with the tournament KP in mind. That is why the KP demand is so high. And this can actually be a problem, because not everyone is active in the tournament. That is why I think it is a good idea to drastically reduce the amount of KP from tournament and adjust the requirements accordingly.
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
Have you ever been in the latest chapters - especialy in the ch16 with it's enourmous KP requirements for each research (250KP is the norm = that's over 10 days for each research without any additional influx of KPs)? Probably not, otherwise you would have never written this statement.
I think that´s what he commented by
And the redicoulusly high KP demand in chapter 16 shows that a high KP gain for some players can create balancing issues for everyone.
I hope INNO will adress this, when the KP flow deminishes :)

@Aeva First of all, I am not in any way, shape or form related to INNO. But you are probably right, I was trying to play devils advocate. That does not mean I don't belive what I said, because I do. But I did try to present my opinion in as controversial a way as possible, because I feel that this is the most effective way to lead a usefull discussion.

@galrond Thank you for your comment. We do seem to have clearly established that there several places where the formula does not work. But anything more in that direction would take a massive amount of chapter by chapter, resource by resource and wonder by wonder number crunching. If anyone is interested in that, it should be moved to a new thread.

And to return to the actual purpose of this thread, here is some feedback from me. Not math, not universal truth, not lies, just my own honest opinion.
1) I love the reduction to 1 fight per province. For me the main reason to play the tournament is not KP,spells or relicts, but the fun I have doing manual combat. However currently there are too many fights to be fun. I hope that this change at least will be implemented on all live worlds as soon as possible.
2) I like the fact that catering is becoming more of an aternative. I do, however, feel that both catering and autofight are boring. I would love to see a minigame for it, like we do in the spire.
3) I am glad that the KP gain from tournament is being drastically reduced. I have never even played to province 20, but it still felt like I was getting to many KP. I have in fact stalled my game on live. Not because I was afraid of damaging my tournament score, but because it felt like I was moving to fast. I want to be able to see my city grow slowly and enjoy the architecture of each new race before moving on to the next.
And the redicoulusly high KP demand in chapter 16 shows that a high KP gain for some players can create balancing issues for everyone.
4) I do not particulary like the random battles. I do not hate them either, but I prefered the way it was before.
5) I like the increase in difficulty between provinces. It means that our succes will not be determined only by how many troops we have, but also by how good we are at manual combat.
6) I feel that the troops may need to be rebalanced. Every kind of troop should be the best possible troop in some situations. At the moment this does not apear to be the case.
1) I do look forward the 1 fight pr. province as well. I don´t play manual, and I play to get the prizes.
2) Good catering gets more viable, but keep minigame a spire thing. I like it in spire, but I also like there´s a difference between the two.
3) I don´t think I got too many KP. I have most of the non-mandatory SS-techs, so province 20 seemed impossible :(
4) I like the randomness, but would prefere max 3 differerent types/encounter.
5) I like that P11R6=P16R1 in difficulty (teoretically). Seems fair to me, that battles become harder, not just armies becomming bigger.
6) Totally agree. Some rebalancing between troops is needed.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
mid chapter 15, 276 AW levels 115 expansions including some premium
ProvinceMax roundT1T2T3MoneySuppliesOrcsMana
1662 40019 20013 800067 0008406 700
2647 20014 40027 5001 010 00007 5000
3619 30038 40038 9000170 0005 90017 000
4659 80060 40030 4000250 000024 000
5666 00076 60045 7001 200 0000017 000
6649 00078 60048 1001 300 000150 0008 0000
7693 00091 00051 7000170 000037 000
86142 00047 00068 8001 800 00003 40027 000
96133 000104 00051 0002 000 00003 80030 000
10550 00096 00063 0002 200 000200 000040 000
11525 00083 00097 0002 200 00005 50050 000
125150 000107 00032 0002 200 000470 00000
13590 000120 00047 0007 800 000290 00000
145103 000126 00085 0002 700 00006 7000
155147 00055 00033 0008 600 000610 0006 30060 000
165340 00088 00019 0000320 000057 000
175162 000182 00060 0002 900 000340 00000
185254 00034 00059 0007 200 000320 0008 40067 000
195182 000138 00022 0003 500 000710 0008 000131 000
205138 000138 00093 0007 400 000750 00000
215190 000113 00097 0007 700 00009 70071 000
225160 00077 000170 0004 400 000390 00010 0000
235212 000119 000102 0004 500 000420 00020 7000
245219 00085 000108 0004 000 0001 760 00000
255285 00091 000136 0009 600 000420 00000
265175 000271 00085 0005 000 000490 000091 000
275122 000146 000181 0004 500 000012 000191 000
285185 000146 000191 0000470 00013 000100 000
295380 000149 000102 00001 590 00000
305331 000154 000168 00011 200 000000
315347 000214 00070 0005 700 0001 060 0000110 000
325362 000221 000211 0000000
335293 000220 00073 0006 000 000550 00015 000240 000
345303 000290 000113 00012 300 000590 00000
355154 000300 000155 00001 280 00015 000120 000
36582 000430 000236 0000640 00000
375406 000372 00085 0006 200 000690 00000
385334 000190 000170 0006 900 0001 370 00016 0000
395256 000331 000174 0000660 00017 000130 000
405358 000267 000129 0007 400 000017 000280 000
Total7 466 7005 882 6003 741 900149 410 00017 197 000209 7401 896 700


lm:36,32%
lr:8,68%
ma:10,79%
hm:32,72%
hr:11,49%
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Difficulty increase is too steep.

Orc demand is too high... 8 armories, 5 orcs nest, hero's forge that makes about 2.5 armories worth... I've cut back 20-25% of what I was hoping to be able to do on beta and my orcs are still not doing well...

I know that some things are still being investigated and analyzed and therefore the tournaments haven't been pushed further yet. As I mentioned before, we're taking the time to consider everything very carefully and will only push it to Live once we're certain everything turns out as expected. The technical testing and first feedback has been run on Beta first. Now we added EN as well to also measure how a Live environment responds/reacts to the changes, and to get a clear picture of that, we need a bit more testing time in some areas. For example: In the first week(s) everyone wants to try it out, so participation will be a bit higher and players will probably get a bit further than normally because they're more actively testing. After the first few weeks that settles down a bit and we'll be able to get a better view on the actual status and things like impact on resource stocks in the long term and stuff like that. When everyone has a lot of resources in stock, they'll probably cater provinces more easily than when these stocks get less, and the same goes for unit productions. Right now we need a bit more testing time to calculate long term impact of things like that before being able to decide if the balancing is resulting in an expected situation or not.
 

WolfSinger

Well-Known Member
I think it would be strange to assume that a large number of players would not build all 3 buildings, especially now that they can all produce simultaneously. Unless of course they do not fight on principal in which case they also should not build any fighting wonders.

The only reason I built all 3 was to try the higher level troops - I still use Barracks Troops almost exclusively in tournaments in my live city. I use to do 30 provinces to round 2 and the first 9 provinces to round 6. Now I'm testing the waters of doing 20 provinces to round 5 (gives me a little more KP than I was getting previously.) Honestly - once I see exactly how this affects my live city when it hits the US server I may consider deleting them if I find I can continue with just the Barracks Troops. (and I auto fight)