Purpose of Beta?

[CrazyWizard]

The thing that wondered me the most is that Beta is treated not as a test server but as a live server that abuses it's players.
I have never before met a test server where you pay for stuff with RL money. (well might not be entirely true,I think at the Magic the Gathering Online Alpha test we could pay as well but we were trown so many goodies towards us we didnt really needed it.)

Most times it's more like "hey here you got 100k diamonts, enjoy and test a lot. every year or so you might also see a server reboot, for example to test the changes made in the early game. and off course here you got another 250k diamonds to speed up the process.

therefore I would say Beta is not a test server it's a regular server where they drop crappy code and leave you with the shit.
Only reason I am on beta is to see the new changes so I can respond accordingly on the normal servers.
I dont care about testing or bug hunting or whatever. because it's slow tedious and to speed it up I have to pay with my own money.

 

[DeletedUser629]

The thing that wondered me the most is that Beta is treated not as a test server but as a live server that abuses it's players.
I have never before met a test server where you pay for stuff with RL money. (well might not be entirely true,I think at the Magic the Gathering Online Alpha test we could pay as well but we were trown so many goodies towards us we didnt really needed it.)

Most times it's more like "hey here you got 100k diamonts, enjoy and test a lot. every year or so you might also see a server reboot, for example to test the changes made in the early game. and off course here you got another 250k diamonds to speed up the process.

therefore I would say Beta is not a test server it's a regular server where they drop crappy code and leave you with the shit.
Only reason I am on beta is to see the new changes so I can respond accordingly on the normal servers.
I dont care about testing or bug hunting or whatever. because it's slow tedious and to speed it up I have to pay with my own money.

Players are not abused on this server or any other server for that matter. Elvenar does not have features that require diamonds for testing. We do however hand out diamonds to players who actively hunt bugs, and report them to us. Every update has been tested thoroughly by Inno's own QA team, as explained by Muf-Muf. this doesn't mean bugs can't slip through because a bug can be triggered by things the QA team is unable to work with. So this server is very important for the development of Elvenar, and not some server where they drop crappy code and leave you with the shit. If you only come to beta to see what's new, then you haven't earned any diamonds to use here. You don't need diamonds to hunt for bugs, many players have helped us without using a single diamond, simply because most bugs can be found in features available to all players. You don't care about bug hunting, or testing, so clearly, this is not the server for you.

 

[CrazyWizard]

As always you pick a word and ignore the rest soul of a post. aka beta aint a test server, aint run as a test server and aint build as a test server.
therefore dropping crapy code on the player base is what is happening. QA team, thats the biggest joke I have heared in a while, maybe fire all those slackers?

Beta is a regular live server on whose player base all bugs are dropped like a massive stoneslide, if it's used as an early access server, then all bugs we encounter should be very minor. it should already be a smooth running gameand occasionally a minor bug should appear so you can fix it before going live. the servers main purpose should be getting feedback get feedback on the game mechanic modifications before enrolling it to all and every server.

yes sometimes a bug can get past the QA team and only comes forward in a large test setting, these are minor hard to detect bugs, not the ones that come with flashing lights that we very often see. if I login click 7 times and find 2-4 really big bugs, those are unacceptable to get past an QA team

if you guys need a testing envoirment in which you want players to test stuff and have us help out testing material, then build a test server, run a test server and treat it as a test server.

 

[DeletedUser629]

QA team, thats the biggest joke I have heared in a while, maybe fire all those slackers?

If you can do a better job, please create your own game and have tens of thousands of players play it. If not, refrain from insulting hard working dedicated people.

You can read Muf-Muf's explanation on what kind of server Beta is, and that's that.

 

[DeletedUser]

@Goryn But main plot of @CrazyWizard post is still true. Open Beta server (we play at) is very far from how test server should look. His description is much, much, much closer to proper distinction between live and beta. I am really disappointed with poor understanding in Team this distinction and principles of test server.

 

[DeletedUser629]

@Goryn But main plot of @CrazyWizard post is still true. Open Beta server (we play at) is very far from how test server should look. His description is much, much, much closer to proper distinction between live and beta. I am really disappointed with poor understanding in Team this distinction and principles of test server.

There is no misunderstanding regarding what kind of server this is. Here you can read our community manager's explanation.

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...-1-chapter-vii-fairies.4346/page-5#post-32518

 

[DeletedUser118]

BTW I have to admit I'm also someone who's against flooding beta players with diamonds. The reason is simple. Most players on the worlds out there are none diamond users so the best way to test things is to do it "their way" and that is playing without diamonds.

On a side note: As much as I appreaciate the job of your QA testers as I know a few of other games of your company very well. There sure have slipped alot of bigger bugs past them over the last few updates. Just look at the disappearing buildings and the expansion problems. Maybe you should consider giving them a few more days of testing next time and be more procicely (spell?) what exactly has been changed and needs testing.

 

[DeletedUser]

@Goryn As I stated before few times, I am dev and tester. This is my real job - not extra task I can do in my free time. I know how beta server should work, because I belong to first group @Muf-Muf described. I also participated in closed beta tests of commercial standalone and browser based products. This server for me for a long time one and only thing which was somehow connected to beta was earlier releases. Nothing more. The rest is ordinary live server. Any other companies I worked with wouldn't call this beta server. You simple are using same phrase for two different things and second definition is misleading. In real world there are mostly 4 types of servers:
1. Dev - here developers deploy and test own updates
2. Test - here QA team is in charge
3. Preprod - here are deployed version ready to production, mostly for demos, with data as close to production as possible
4. Production/live - real environment, where clients are working.
This server is somewhere near preprod, but preprod is much more stable and polished. And preprod is not accessible by anyone. Only for authorized and limited number of users.

Look closer @Goryn to proper definitions and ask real testers (who are payed for their job) if this is beta and they will smile

 

[DeletedUser651]

Reading both sides what I see is a definition and an expectation issue. We run into this a whole lot around here. Many of us think we are here to have some fun and we are happy to make money for the people who own this game. We get paid nothing, but we provide a great deal of benefit to the owners. If you then add in the fact that some people are actually paying the owners so they get rich while we get nothing, well, that is where anger comes in. We expect gratitude. We are unpaid employees that provide free labor.

On the other side, the owners seem to see this server as a gift to players who are dying to play this game. We are allowed to try the game before others and we are expected to pay for this privilege in either money or time reporting bugs or we are seen as people who have no worth to the company and who deserve nothing.

Perhaps the problem comes with the word "testers" and beta. Beta testers are people who work for a living and thus fall into category one. Maybe if we were called something else we wouldn't always come across this issue. Maybe if we were called previewers or something like that. Maybe if instead of being called beta, they called it dress rehearsal. People happily pay money to see the previews of a Broadway play and are don't mind if some of the actors forget their lines.

Maybe it is a language issue? Or maybe the industry norm is to treat people as category one and thus, people here are disappointed? Maybe it is a culture issue? Silicon valley vs not silicon valley.

 

[Muf-Muf]

Quick reply to inform you that we have changed this thread's title from "Huh? not allowed to reply?" to "Purpose of Beta?", as the old title was slightly confusing and not regarding the topic described in the thread itself.

 

[DeletedUser1548]

If you can do a better job, please create your own game and have tens of thousands of players play it. If not, refrain from insulting hard working dedicated people.

Hard working? Dedicated? Really?
How is it possible that after updates I click like... 2-3 times and get 100% repeatable errors? Like here: https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...-error-while-adding-kps-to-the-research.4485/
Sometimes you do not even have to click: disappearing buildings, broken animation of Fairy Portal level4, etc.

Are you saying that this game is completely broken when it is being tested and what we get here is already 'polished'? Come on... We diagnose errors here and after 2 weeks we struggle with them on live servers. Hardly anything major is fixed.
Or maybe testers find these errors but there is no time to fix them and that is the reason of how it is?

 

[DeletedUser867]

I don't know what sort of software engineering background other folks have, but in an industrial environment you'll always have a "startup" phase for shaking everything out, and that's how I regard what InnoGames calls Beta.

There are two points that we need to factor in to our various analyses and eye gouging contests.

1. This is an on-line browser based game, with a two week release cycle. I'm delighted that we're allowed to interact with QA and the developers, because the metagame is fascinating. This is FAR more interesting than buying a new boxed product every 18 months.
2. Sequenced development, with jumps rather than "invisible" changes, is a very efficient programming approach. Sure there's some bump and run, but that's FAR better than devoting a third of the development resources to seamless transitions. I don't run my cites right to the ragged edge, because I prefer to leave plenty of slack for the 'next big thing" that comes down the pike.

 

[DeletedUser1278]

Well what can we tell for now.

The real meaning of this game is to ignore all old players if they can kick them ( us) out they will
And we(inno) start collecting with the new players who dont now the game.
Its now only about selling diamonds and players dont matter anymore.
Like now giving us that nice magic academy that we must place in the hope somebody is foolish to click from level 2 to 3 and diamonds are gone.

My solution goodbye non declinable quest and not building that useless building.
And now the new fairies wonder building and again the older players can putt it in there face and buy the new stones or like crazy wizard tells from your neighbours . well to bad neighbours i will steal it will never put anymore diamonds in this game .

And now about the new upcomming apdate its a totall joke sorry.
So its possible to attack provinces with your neighbours how many players dont have much neighbours .
Its a missed oppertunity to work together.
How many sleeping players there are in a bs. Then what is the use of a bs where you should work together nothing.
To trade goods or only to chat nothing else.
Goods i can take from my neighbours butt after a million and more there is nothing to look for
Ok I can buy kp. nope I do much better then that .


And than last but not least inno should take a few good players from a few servers who will sign a contract ( not telling of the new stuff ))
And let them play on a closed server to test. because there are to many bugs in the life servers because the bad control of the Q.A mods.

simply because most bugs can be found in features available to all players

like you tell goryn its simply to find butt they dont find it .

refrain from insulting hard working dedicated people.

I dont insult anybody only quoting your words .

And they need free diamonds to test it... And you now why my dear goring because the Q,A have that to and dont find it
If a nice test player must test it for the bugs and it needs a upgrade for diamonds who will test it then (((get the point))

We do however hand out diamonds

nice then hand them out on the server where people play not here here i dont spend a penny. because this is not a test server only a server before the live server.
Because the funny thing on the live server there,s a bug and here its not And cannot test it here because my level is to low

jeah jeah the rule this you shut report this and that.
Sorry i dont play on a test server so there should be no more bugs special on a live server where there a bugs for months .
Because there is nott enough controll to check the bugs or dont care about it because its not in the way of collecting diamonds from players
And im scared thats the issue at this moment. I hope im wrong about the last

edit by Goryn. Removed the abused part as it has no business being here on beta.

 

[DeletedUser]

@Bobbykitty Naming is not as important. You may be closed alpha/beta tester as a gratitude for being active member. For example I know sometimes developers gather people around product under development, don't pay them but give, after signing NDA, access to veeeeery early versions, issue tracker and proper beta server. Contacts are through closed forum. With messages what looking after, what is most important to test in given release and so on. What is the requirement? Be known member of society in this game. Your nick may be in final product appear in easter eggs, credits or some in-game content as further gratitude. Those are standards Inno is not meeting. And believe me, that standards are still below "silicon valley". Similiar I know personally from different german company. Same country, different treatment of test players. Boxed product is not browser game? Ok... Register for example on The Settlers Online beta server, play a bit and compare. How tests are performed, how resets, how players are treated. Completely different level. Reset? Ok... You have, for example, 20k premium currency and do what you want with them

I seen few times global messages on live servers about joining test server and playing on it at exact day and time to examine loadbalancers and infrastructure for extra giveaway at all live servers. Beta servers went down, when queues were reaching few thousands users at one time trying get into game, just few minutes from pointed time. During next weeks were next approaches and "quests" with increasing rewards. Players were always winning. Doing simply DDoS. At moment owners were satisfied with tests, players need almost one hour to break them. All rewards has been given on all live servers 1-2 days after every attempt. So... Is it possible? Yes. But it needs a little bit of understanding what test server is and how everything should be handled to cover as much cases as possible.

@Katwijk I work mostly in SCRUM or other agile methodologies. Sometimes 2-3 days lasting workshops in extreme programming with formula similar to hackatons. I like it and clients are also happy, because they are getting product, they are asking for. With few I have sometimes hot-lines or videochats and we fix things almost "on-demand". I know this is something we will not see here, but more agile is something what could improve situation.

 

[CrazyWizard]

BTW I have to admit I'm also someone who's against flooding beta players with diamonds. The reason is simple. Most players on the worlds out there are none diamond users so the best way to test things is to do it "their way" and that is playing without diamonds.

On a side note: As much as I appreaciate the job of your QA testers as I know a few of other games of your company very well. There sure have slipped alot of bigger bugs past them over the last few updates. Just look at the disappearing buildings and the expansion problems. Maybe you should consider giving them a few more days of testing next time and be more procicely (spell?) what exactly has been changed and needs testing.

I think you misunderstand the use of diamonds in this case,

The diamonds are supposed to be used for speeding up the game, so quick combat, unlocking techs,en instant finishing buildings, you could even lock out or limit the amount of diamond buildings.

As said in a test envoiment is not unlikly to reset all the accounts just for the sake of retesting the modified start quests ect

 

[CrazyWizard]

@Bobbykitty Naming is not as important. You may be closed alpha/beta tester as a gratitude for being active member. For example I know sometimes developers gather people around product under development, don't pay them but give, after signing NDA, access to veeeeery early versions, issue tracker and proper beta server. Contacts are through closed forum. With messages what looking after, what is most important to test in given release and so on. What is the requirement? Be known member of society in this game. Your nick may be in final product appear in easter eggs, credits or some in-game content as further gratitude. Those are standards Inno is not meeting. And believe me, that standards are still below "silicon valley". Similiar I know personally from different german company. Same country, different treatment of test players. Boxed product is not browser game? Ok... Register for example on The Settlers Online beta server, play a bit and compare. How tests are performed, how resets, how players are treated. Completely different level. Reset? Ok... You have, for example, 20k premium currency and do what you want with them

I seen few times global messages on live servers about joining test server and playing on it at exact day and time to examine loadbalancers and infrastructure for extra giveaway at all live servers. Beta servers went down, when queues were reaching few thousands users at one time trying get into game, just few minutes from pointed time. During next weeks were next approaches and "quests" with increasing rewards. Players were always winning. Doing simply DDoS. At moment owners were satisfied with tests, players need almost one hour to break them. All rewards has been given on all live servers 1-2 days after every attempt. So... Is it possible? Yes. But it needs a little bit of understanding what test server is and how everything should be handled to cover as much cases as possible.

@Katwijk I work mostly in SCRUM or other agile methodologies. Sometimes 2-3 days lasting workshops in extreme programming with formula similar to hackatons. I like it and clients are also happy, because they are getting product, they are asking for. With few I have sometimes hot-lines or videochats and we fix things almost "on-demand". I know this is something we will not see here, but more agile is something what could improve situation.

The company you refer to had mayor screwups as well(inability to login and play properly without mayor lag and keep it that way for 2-3 months was normal), untill about a year or so ago, maybe they changed the management but they seem to do quite fine now.
but your right about they know how to use the playerbase for testing purposes, tho there release scedule is much much much slower than elvenar's.

@Goryn a QA team is to ensure the quality of a product, if it's full of mayor bugs even gamebreakers because they missed super simple easy bugs that are released then there not doing there job properly. that's either mismanagement, unqualified personel or both.

A product not signed of by QA should not be allowed to be send to the consumer, early access servers are supposed to be the last step of the QA phase, but here it looks more like it's the first step and not the last.

 

[DeletedUser118]

I think you misunderstand the use of rubies in this case,

The diamonds are supposed to be used for speeding up the game, so quick combat, unlocking techs,en instant finishing buildings, you could even lock out or limit the amount of diamond buildings.

As said in a test envoiment is not unlikly to reset all the accounts just for the sake of retesting the modified start quests ect

I was aware that diamonds would be used to speed everything up and make it possible to even test everything buyable. But if you look at the design of this world and how it works, I don't think speeding up even more would really help AND a reset for most players is not an option. At least not now anymore with so many players spending real money in here, which of course would not be needed on a real Beta.

 

[DeletedUser]

@CrazyWizard Any product may have them. I know bugs you mentioned, because many players abandoned game. Among them me. But still I can appreciate what they did as they should. And their test server was far better than this. As for responsibility of QA you have right. If they signed version and major bug slip through not being on list, it means version wasn't tested properly.
@Katzenprinz Real money on test not solvable? If they save on account number of bought diamonds from beta start and multiply it 5-10 times and this number is additional number of them with every reset, I think this could be enough fair.

 

[DeletedUser629]

Hard working? Dedicated? Really?
How is it possible that after updates I click like... 2-3 times and get 100% repeatable errors? Like here: https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...-error-while-adding-kps-to-the-research.4485/
Sometimes you do not even have to click: disappearing buildings, broken animation of Fairy Portal level4, etc.

Are you saying that this game is completely broken when it is being tested and what we get here is already 'polished'? Come on... We diagnose errors here and after 2 weeks we struggle with them on live servers. Hardly anything major is fixed.
Or maybe testers find these errors but there is no time to fix them and that is the reason of how it is?

We are aware of the fact some major bugs made it to the live servers, even when reported here on beta. This is an unwanted situation and therefor we were given more time to find and report bugs, which automatically gives the development team more time to fix them. We've been having more hotfixes here on Beta than ever before, so things are improving. it's certainly not perfect yet, but we're getting there.

 

[DeletedUser629]

@Goryn As I stated before few times, I am dev and tester. This is my real job - not extra task I can do in my free time. I know how beta server should work, because I belong to first group @Muf-Muf described. I also participated in closed beta tests of commercial standalone and browser based products. This server for me for a long time one and only thing which was somehow connected to beta was earlier releases. Nothing more. The rest is ordinary live server. Any other companies I worked with wouldn't call this beta server. You simple are using same phrase for two different things and second definition is misleading. In real world there are mostly 4 types of servers:
1. Dev - here developers deploy and test own updates
2. Test - here QA team is in charge
3. Preprod - here are deployed version ready to production, mostly for demos, with data as close to production as possible
4. Production/live - real environment, where clients are working.
This server is somewhere near preprod, but preprod is much more stable and polished. And preprod is not accessible by anyone. Only for authorized and limited number of users.

Look closer @Goryn to proper definitions and ask real testers (who are payed for their job) if this is beta and they will smile

This is exactly the reason why Muf-Muf posted the explanation in the first place. To distinct both versions of ''Beta'' and yet people still seem to be confused about what kind of server this is.

As i have said in a different thread, this is not a Beta server in the way most people in this thread see it, but rather a server where players can play like they do on any live server, and help us test new released features before they're being implemented on live. This will help us to improve the game for everyone. QA can't find all bugs, as bugs can be triggered by having more players on a server for example. This is where we come in. I admit, it hasn't always worked out all that great, and bugs found their way to the live servers anyway, but we're working on improving ourselves to prevent these things in the future.