Purpose of Beta?

[Marindor]

It's an interesting question and actually quite complicated to answer in a simple way as well. First of all, let me be clear on the fact that I'm not speaking for InnoGames here, but am just giving my personal opinion on the matter.

At Elvenar Beta we basically have 2 main purposes:

1. Testing new game versions - Finding and reporting as many bugs as possible so we can do our best to get them out of the game before the game version hits our live servers. Of course this isn't always possible for every bug, but as we've seen the last months, we have become quite good at that and you'll often see hotfixes implemented on Beta that already took out bugs that would otherwise go to our live servers. This is also the main reason there's now more time between the versions on Beta and on Live and it has had a positive effect!

2. Gathering as much feedback as possible on new features and changes - Everything is implemented here first and the feedback is directly passed on to our game developers. Does that always mean a change/new feature will be blown off? No, of course not. But the player's opinions are certainly passed on, kept in mind and can result in changes not being implemented in the "real" game or in things being adjusted before they're going to live as we've seen with the declinable quests issue, for example.

For both purposes, active involvement from the community is necessary. We cannot filter out bugs in time when there are no bug reports and we cannot gather feedback if noone gives their opinion. When you talk about added value to the community or to the purpose of our Beta testing: Of course your "added value" is quite minimal if you're not reporting bugs, expressing your thoughts and participate in the discussions. But that's just about the added value to our testing and Beta community. You could be playing on Beta because you're an active player or (arch)mage on one of the Live servers and want to be the first to know about new changes or new features, so you can help your fellowship. You could be playing here because you're a very active player that writes guides on Elvenar and wants to experience new content as soon as you can, so your guides keep up to date. You could be playing here because you're just a fan of our game and wants to see the "new stuff" as soon as you can.

In short: There can be multiple reasons why you're playing on Beta and you're of course free to have your own reasons for doing so. As a player however, you should always keep in mind that on this server, you will encounter more bugs than on a live server because one of our main purposes is to test the game versions and get these bugs out before they go to Live. If you hate encountering bugs and they frustrate you, a Beta server may indeed not be the best place for you and you might want to stick to the Live Servers where (again) not all bugs will be filtered out, but where the game will at least be much more stable than during the "testing phase" here on Beta.

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually that isn't clear at all, Neuralgia. The FoE beta server gives every player some diamonds just for being there, presumably because they realize they need numbers of players putting up with the bugs in order to test everything more or less properly. So they attempt to motivate players to stay on the server, unlike here where the staff sometimes tells people they ought to play elsewhere.

Again, it all comes down to which policy InnoGames wants to follow for its beta server. You could argue the only difference is the lack of "incentive" for casual players to take the time and isolate bugs, but the again you could also make the argument that the addition of incentive in the form of diamond rewards, per say, could potentially lead to an influx of bug reports poorly written, for the sake of reaping the rewards. In this case, the player experience is not necessarily improved, whereas the work of the admin team is potentially doubled or tripled.

You should also ask yourself why you're participating in the beta server. Personally I'm not a fan of the idea of being here, or in any beta server for that matter, for the free diamonds, but it's still perfectly understandable from the point of view of a person that's not able or willing to purchase diamonds in any of the country worlds. If you're here because you're willing to participare in the bug-hunting and improve the game experience, then that's fine, and that's your incentive in itself. Free diamonds would be a bonus in that, but certainly not the thing that keeps you going.

For as long as the policy remains the same, the response you got from the admin team on your ticket, while crude, it's the truth and, realistically, the most honest answer you can get. Basically, you have the privilege of testing new content before every other country server, but you're not getting free diamonds. If you think this isn't worth your time, then your best course of action would be to move to one of the country worlds.

 

[DeletedUser1095]

Marindor, thanks for your response and I'll digest it before replying.

Meanwhile: Neuralgia, my main point is not about rewards; and you seem to have misinterpreted most of what I've written. Since you ask: My incentive for playing here (insofar as I have any) is that it was the only server available when I started playing, and when "regular" servers opened I had no interest in starting over again elsewhere.

But again: The main question I have is whether the QA team has enough bug-hunters to beta test efficiently without the non-hunting players.

 

[DeletedUser1095]

It's an interesting question and actually quite complicated to answer in a simple way as well. First of all, let me be clear on the fact that I'm not speaking for InnoGames here, but am just giving my personal opinion on the matter.

At Elvenar Beta we basically have 2 main purposes:

1. Testing new game versions ...
2. Gathering as much feedback as possible on new features and changes ...

For both purposes, active involvement from the community is necessary. We cannot filter out bugs in time when there are no bug reports and we cannot gather feedback if noone gives their opinion. When you talk about added value to the community or to the purpose of our Beta testing: Of course your "added value" is quite minimal if you're not reporting bugs, expressing your thoughts and participate in the discussions. But that's just about the added value to our testing and Beta community.

Thanks Marindor. In fact it's non-hunting players' value (if any) to testing and to the QA team that I'm most curious about, if you can stand a few more questions, and/or if Muf Muf could weigh in:

~ What would you say is the proportion of active bug hunters here on the beta server, as opposed to non-hunting players?

~ If all the non-hunting players left the beta server, would the bug hunters still be able to do all the testing/hunting you need them to do? There isn't *very* much interactive stuff in Elvenar, but fellowship functions, neighbour functions, aiding and trading need testing; and a couple of posters in this thread (Katzenprinz and Rinaer) have suggested that the QA team also needs numbers on board to test server loads etc. Would you have enough for all that, if everyone left except the active bug-hunters?

Thanks for your insights on this.

 

[DeletedUser]

It's an interesting question and actually quite complicated to answer in a simple way as well

No one said it is or will be easy As a developer I am quite aware about complexity and kudos for people willing to participating in such conversations. Many points of view are presented and many of them are probably not known for not very experienced players looking only at own situation and not globally.

Finding and reporting as many bugs as possible so we can do our best to get them out of the game before the game version hits our live servers.

But there is no real feedback. Look now how many topics are hitting one or two problems. People don't read forum and don't hit search before create new topic about something already raised. Sometimes even 10 topics about same bug isn't enough :/ For bugs should be something more like issue tracker, heavily moderated. Forum should be more from discussions about them.

we have become quite good at that and you'll often see hotfixes implemented on Beta that already took out bugs that would otherwise go to our live servers.

Still this is test server. Hotfixes should be implemented as often as possible to give people as much time as possible to test them. Hotfixes 2-3 days before live release aren't comfortable to anyone. Does anyone heard in Inno about: code freeze, daily updates, agile programming?

there's now more time between the versions on Beta and on Live and it has had a positive effect!

This was raised many months ago as one of thing which should be done ASAP. Inno reaction time on such voices was few months. Not very fast, don't you think?

Everything is implemented here first and the feedback is directly passed on to our game developers.

But this is corporation... I don't believe it is going to dev directly. It is passing by few managers, team lead and at any of them it can stuck. I know this as someone who work, as contractor, for really big company. I know this not in theory, but as "insider".

active involvement from the community is necessary

Yes, active involvement is needed, but it has to be somehow raised and hold. You mentioned some reasons people are here, but look at them... Most of them is because those people are willing to participate as result of more or less selfish reasons. I am mage in two brotherhoods on two live servers and I am spreading there informations from here: what members should do or do not, because it will be changed. For example those wanting Magic Academy were on hold by me before it's building costs were lowered. I know it will happens and my warnings were taken seriously. But many people on live servers didn't knew it will change, so lost few boosting relics (I'm not sure if they were returned or not). Still involvement of community isn't really appreciated. How many months it took Inno to start diamond rewards for proper bug report? And now realize that not in all cases this is happening. Even if you are first with feedback, but choose not "awarding" information channel to give it, you may not get reward for it at all. Where is equality? There are still open problems related to testing process. Some of them obvious from very beginning for someone being tester, but not seen by managers or owners if you don't punch them into face

 

[DeletedUser867]

To address the very narrow question of Diamond rewards, while my normal playing style uses a few diamonds, it's only an occasional thing. Beta diamonds can't be transferred out of the Beta region in any case, so it's not like you're contaminating the production servers.

Some diamonds, or equivalently an extra dollop of Coins/Supplies/Goods, allows/encourages us to test aspects of the game that would not be otherwise accessible.

 

[DeletedUser]

Meanwhile: Neuralgia, my main point is not about rewards; and you seem to have misinterpreted most of what I've written. Since you ask: My incentive for playing here (insofar as I have any) is that it was the only server available when I started playing, and when "regular" servers opened I had no interest in starting over again elsewhere.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean you specifically. My post was rather targeted towards anyone having the same thoughts regarding the lack of rewards for successful bug-hunting. Apologies if that created misunderstandings.

 

[DeletedUser]

@Katwijk But Diamonds on beta are having also additional aspect... If there is enough of them, they will be used by players in various situations, thus extending test area coverage. Maybe there are places normally not tested and hiding bug? Without buying with diamonds we don't know about that. That is why I raised few times idea about doing every X releases full server reset, giving players various number of resources and diamonds to fast build city. Various number of resources end with peoples covering full range of eras. Sometimes you end on 3 era, sometimes latest... I know it will not stand in Inno from one reason: "what to do with those already paying for diamonds on test server?". That is why proper tests are less important here than money.

 

[DeletedUser1095]

I'm still very much hoping someone from the QA team - MufMuf? Krevan? - could find the time to answer these questions:

~ What would you say is the proportion of active bug hunters here on the beta server, as opposed to non-hunting players?
~ If all the non-hunting players left the beta server, would the bug hunters still be able to do all the testing/hunting you need them to do? There isn't *very* much interactive stuff in Elvenar, but fellowship functions, neighbour functions, aiding and trading need testing; and a couple of posters in this thread (Katzenprinz and Rinaer) have suggested that the QA team also needs numbers on board to test server loads etc. Would you have enough for all that, if everyone left except the active bug-hunters?
Thanks for your insights on this.

 

[Marindor]

It's a bit complicated to answer that question in a simple way as well. Regarding server loads: This depends on the server and can differ. The US server size e.g. is bigger than ours at Beta so such tests wouldn't really be relevant. Also, real server load tests would require a lot of active players online at the same time, performing many actions and in order to have these participants, you would probably come to the same people who were earlier classified as "active bug hunters". Occasional players wouldn't make much of a change in such tests.

For you other question: If we only had very active bug hunters here, the whole situation would be different: It would be a smaller group, but more active. Probably located closer to each other on the World Map for example and that might even have been more beneficial for the actual bug hunting we do. Nevertheless, the more active players/bug hunters often find each other in Fellowships as well, which also provide all the trading/NH options so for the bug hunting, that wouldn't make much of a difference either.

 

[DeletedUser1095]

Thanks. What would you say is the proportion of active bug hunters here on the beta server, as opposed to non-hunting players?
What kinds of numbers are we talking about?

 

[DeletedUser283]

I you wish to have many payers on line simultaneously, setup an ingame event

 

[DeletedUser]

@Marindor And you know those all problems you mentioned are caused by owners and bad understanding what test server is, how it should work and how it should be maintained?

This depends on the server and can differ

Yes... But test server is not live, regular, server. And is treated that way. What is first of big mistakes done to this server by owners.

The US server size e.g. is bigger than ours at Beta so such tests wouldn't really be relevant.

It is bigger, because it is live server. Live servers are given openly when you only enter page and try to register. Test servers are always in background, thus we may say players actively search them and not get them as easily as live.

real server load tests would require a lot of active players online at the same time, performing many actions

What is actively denied by owners by opening new worlds, even if they are not needed. Such decisions and caused only problems with neighbors on many servers.

in order to have these participants, you would probably come to the same people who were earlier classified as "active bug hunters". Occasional players wouldn't make much of a change in such tests.

You don't understand how it can be triggered easily if this server would work differently from live server. Tell you how it can be easily introduced? Inactive players dropped every 1-2 updates. Updates are connected to server reset, so problem with inactive neighbors not exists. On live servers messages about "quest: players vs servers" What is this? Given day, on given time, players should join this server and trying to destabilize server, up to its break. If this is done, all peoples who tried this are getting reward on pointed own live server. Believe me, this will end as Distributed Denial of Service in 99% situations Those one-time testers accounts will be dropped very fast, not affecting regular testing, because reset may be planned for example few days later

If we only had very active bug hunters here, the whole situation would be different

Again mixing reasons and results. Testers have to be somehow motivated to testing. What we get here? You may test new things but you have to pay with own money to test diamond things How this differ from live servers?

It would be a smaller group, but more active

No... Because active testers have to be motivated. How testers here are motivated? If idea of giving rewards for founding bug was introduced, and only because players were raising this for months, nearly year from start, this means something. People here were from very beginning volunteers but were treated nearly like slaves.

 

[DeletedUser1095]

I would still really really like to hear what kind of numbers we're talking about.
How many active bug-hunters are there on beta1, and how many active non-hunting players?
Please and thank you.

 

[Muf-Muf]

Many players help us test in various ways: from bug reporting to providing feedback. It's impossible to give exact numbers.

 

[DeletedUser1095]

More or less would be good. I just mean the active bug-hunters.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes... But test server is not live, regular, server. And is treated that way. What is first of big mistakes done to this server by owners.

I'm curious. Can you argue that is a big mistake from InnoGames, or even a mistake, for that matter, if the Beta server remains functional, with an adequate amount of players who participate in bug-hunting? And I'm assuming it's adequate, specifically because rewards for successful bug-hunting have not been introduced.

 

[DeletedUser1095]

... specifically because rewards for successful bug-hunting have not been introduced.

Neuralgia, they started giving rewards for successful bug-hunts about a month ago.

 

[DeletedUser]

Can you argue that is a big mistake from InnoGames

Yes... I'm developer and thus I have to know also how to test own code. I know not script-kiddie tools like LOIC, but to real penetration tests, finding vulnerabilities and so on. This server is not used as as test server but regular with slightly bigger version. Testers shouldn't be bound to their cities or their decisions will be not neutral. Besides they will not do things potentially harmfull to own cities.

if the Beta server remains functional, with an adequate amount of players who participate in bug-hunting?

Can you tell ratio or number of players in each group? What you understand as "adequate"? Those are questions hard to answer. Maybe impossible...
As for reward... Answer was already given.

 

[DeletedUser]

Neuralgia, they started giving rewards for successful bug-hunts about a month ago.

Apologies. I must have missed it, admittedly I don't follow the Beta forum too much.

Yes... I'm developer and thus I have to know also how to test own code.

My question was somewhat rhetorical. My point being that regardless of your or my experience, or anyone else's for that matter, it still all comes down to how InnoGames wants to handle their beta server. If the server remains functional and adequate based on their standards, of which, naturally, I am unaware, you could make the argument that their approach is right, as much as you can make the argument that it is wrong. I'm not questioning the credibility of your words.