Old news, but still...

[Karvest]

They added 2 new types of flexible rewards today, one gives unurium since chapter 18, another - since 19. So there can be 2 chapters delay too.

 

[Lovec Krys]

Possible, but Spire is already unnegotiable (at least the 3rd floor) with mana & seeds, so unurium makes the lack of seeds for negotiating even worse.
Anyway the real fun will begin once(if) they add ascended goods there.

 

[CrazyWizard]

My suggestion of putting the difficult at 200% for province 50 level 6 is 25% more difficult that the old tournament and where it is now is 39% more difficult. Before the military boosts and the birds the 160% difficulty level was mostly skipped and for most that were playing a lot of provinces 145% difficulty was the hardest they did.

They went to 1% more difficult for each province after the difficulty reached about 200% on province 35 level 1. I think the difficulty should go up by 2.5% from province 50 level 6. That would ensure the number of provinces people do would not get out of control.


What I see fits the formula for the data is that to go from no AW to max AW in chapter 17 results in a squad size that was 413% of the squad size without any AWs. What I calculate if only one AW from each chapter was included would by a squad size that is 270% of the squad size without any AW. I think the AW penalty is still too high with this idea
AWs are being skipped because of what they do to squad size and if only the higher of two AW from a chapter counted, the second AW might be beneficial.

You should not look at individual components, as it's not that part that is specifically broken.

Think about buying a phone for example. you cannot nitpick about the the brightness of the screen, or the processor they have used.
You buy it as a whole package. there is a systemic issue with the entire package, not a single component in it. but all components have mayor issues.

It also seems that you do not understand the "difficulty" of the tournaments, the difficulty is NOT in the battles itself, but in it's massive squad size.
It's all about reducing losses and 30% of 100 is way less than 5% of 1000.
With the spree of combat related buildings like fire phoenix, UUU, LR, MA and DA the battle difficulty is not the biggest hurdle.

I rather have a more difficult and meaningfull battle in province 5 with less losses.
I am rather fine with the increased difficulty, I loved how the old format allowed you to learn the basics without huge losses, but on high level provinces I am fine with the losses.

Thankfully they tripled unit output in the first week, without it tournaments would have been really hard (tho for mid level players just aquiring the needed hammers is an absolute pain)

In chapter 17 placing all the premium expansions increased squad size by about 25% Ok, so some of the numbers I got playing with the calculator
No premium expansions, no AW squad size 443.
Maximum expansions made squad size go to 552.9, a troop size increase of 110 with 37 expansions, or about 3 troops per expansion.

No premium expansion and max AW gives a squad size of 1832 and adding those 37 expansions increases it to 2286 or a squad size increase of 454 and 12.3 extra troops per expansion-- 4.3 times the troop size increase of a person without AW. It is a double penalty, AW penalty being leveled again on the expansion.

If you got rid of the penalty for the lower of the two AWs per chapter and the premium expansions the squad size difference would be limited to 270%, which is considerably bigger considering with the old tournament there was a max 50% difference whether you had the optional ss tech or not.

Again looking at individual parts.
And yes the latest chapters increase losses of units about 20-25% while increasing production about 10-11%.
It's even worse for negotiations.

But again this is not the fault of the expansions or wonderlevels. but the combined values of all.
Especially research which is an exponential scale, which means that value rises quicker and quicker with each added research.

It's how a 5% compounting interest over 100 years can make a tiny amount of money into a huge one. it's basic math you learn in your elemental/primary school around the age of ~7-8 years old.

It's ok as long as production of goods, units, supplies ect rise at the same exponential rate, but what we see is that the increase slows down considerably after chapter 15, while the increase rises faster and faster.

I give it 2 more chapters, before the effects of the formula becomes unignorable by the dev team, by then there will be a good chance that they change this formula again before tourney & Spire becomes completely unplayable by end game players.

I agree, with each chapter more and more people will be affected by this borked up formula, at some point not the die hard fans but also the masses will feel the issue. but i'll assume thats what they hope for, that they can ignore it for at least 2 years before another rewrite will be done, as we also had a rewrite of combat after about 2 years when they game started and another when the game was about 5 years old.

They added 2 new types of flexible rewards today, one gives unurium since chapter 18, another - since 19. So there can be 2 chapters delay too.

What do you mean with flexible rewards? rewards from items? or also costs in the spire / tournaments?
Because the latter I think it would be killing if it was introduced in either of them.

You cannot freely trade these goods, so you'll be kinda screwed if you forgot to balance you inventory in time.

 

[Karvest]

flexible rewards is the thing they use now in spire chests to give supplies instead of portal profits for low chapters and to give different goods/amounts for different chapters in event chests.

 

[CrazyWizard]

ah I have seen those "_mmr_?" stringed rewards indeed, took me a while to figure out what they where the first time I noticed them.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@edeba
I think what @crazy wiz is trying to point out regarding individual parts is that it's the multiplicative nature of the formula that wrecks things.
E.G.
+2 SS increase from AW levels is OK
+2 SS increase from expansions is OK
+2 SS increase from techs is OK
BUT
That isn't 2+2+2=6, the formula makes it 2x2x2=8

The difference is small at first, but later
+10 SS increase from AW levels is OK
+10 SS increase from expansions is OK
+10 SS increase from techs is OK
BUT
That isn't 10+10+10=30, the formula makes it 10*10*10= 1,000

Changing one of those 10s to a 7 or all of them to a 9 doesn't really make a dent. If your troop production goes up from 10 to 20,30,40...80 in the time that the SS&AW&expansion goes from 2 to 10 you're screwed. Troop production is basically linear. Troop costs are exponential.

 

[Karvest]

on top of that even linear part of tech tree is bigger than what that tech tree gives you in chapters 15+.

 

[CrazyWizard]

on top of that even linear part of tech tree is bigger than what that tech tree gives you in chapters 15+.

It's not a linear part of the formula, that why that part was broken on introduction. it works pretty wel in the lower chapters but in the high chapters it simply runs out of control like any exponential curve would.

 

[Karvest]

They could at least make those chapters give same increase in troops production speed.

 

[CrazyWizard]

true.... if they also increase supplies. there is no point in a 300% unit production increase if you can't afford the supplies.

 

[Karvest]

Supplies production in chapters 15+ is not a big problem (anyone can afford much more than all 3 barracks consume, even if their speed would be doubled, at least if they are active players who can restart WS more often than twice a day).

 

[maxiqbert]

Supplies production in chapters 15+ is not a big problem (anyone can afford much more than all 3 barracks consume, even if their speed would be doubled, at least if they are active players who can restart WS more often than twice a day).

which isn't true for those who use massively their time instants for troops

 

[SoggyShorts]

which isn't true for those who use massively their time instants for troops

How many time instants can you sustainably use? Is it enough to double troop production costs (not production results)? More? I never use them for that so I'm genuinely asking

 

[CrazyWizard]

which isn't true for those who use massively their time instants for troops

I assume in that case you also are more than average active in thw tournaments.

Learn to combine magic workshops, with EE and PoP spells and you will end up with more supplies than you can ever need.

I did notice that pre construct workshops it's a pretty painfull experience

 

[Karvest]

How many time instants can you sustainably use? Is it enough to double troop production costs (not production results)? More? I never use them for that so I'm genuinely asking

I use most of time instants income on MC once a week while my bears are fed. That's like 200-300 hours. That costs me like 2x100% supplies instants + some additional clicks on restarting my magic WS more often than usual 3h cycle. After last full 9 weeks tourney cycle I have 900 hours worth of time instants more than it was on its start and 2500% worth of supplies instants more. If my MC would be 2x as fast as now, I can just place more magic WSs to the city from inventory (or just upgrade them, as double speed in this case is supposed to be on ch18 while I'm still on ch15) and/or build up both lighthouses AWs and/or use more supplies instants.

 

[maxiqbert]

I assume in that case you also are more than average active in thw tournaments.

Learn to combine magic workshops, with EE and PoP spells and you will end up with more supplies than you can ever need.

I did notice that pre construct workshops it's a pretty painfull experience

I'm not saying I have a problem with supplies. Merely saying that it's possible to run out of supplies, and that this shouldn't be disregarded.

 

[edeba]

@edeba
I think what @crazy wiz is trying to point out regarding individual parts is that it's the multiplicative nature of the formula that wrecks things.
E.G.
+2 SS increase from AW levels is OK
+2 SS increase from expansions is OK
+2 SS increase from techs is OK
BUT
That isn't 2+2+2=6, the formula makes it 2x2x2=8

The difference is small at first, but later
+10 SS increase from AW levels is OK
+10 SS increase from expansions is OK
+10 SS increase from techs is OK
BUT
That isn't 10+10+10=30, the formula makes it 10*10*10= 1,000

Changing one of those 10s to a 7 or all of them to a 9 doesn't really make a dent. If your troop production goes up from 10 to 20,30,40...80 in the time that the SS&AW&expansion goes from 2 to 10 you're screwed. Troop production is basically linear. Troop costs are exponential.

Truly, I taught math. I understand the exponent nature and what my suggestions are doing is reducing the size of one of the multiplication factors.

The spire formula that also held pretty close for calculating squad size has (0.003A+1) where A is the number of AW. Where I was looking the maximum number of AW levels was 1045 and I compared it to having maximum half the total AW levels in the formula, so 1045*.003 is 3.135 and add the 1 and you get 4.135 as the number multiplied in. If you use 565 you get 565*.003 is 1.695, add the 1 and you get 2.695.

It actually looks to me that they were out a decimal place in what got programmed. Should have been 0.0003. Then you'd have a multiplication factor of 1.3135 with all the AWs and 1.1695. with using half, but you'd be ok with a 30% extra squad size from the AWs. Just using the higher of the AWs helps, but it is still a huge multiplication factor.

The extra 25% for all of the premium expansions wouldn't matter so much if they just fixed the AW multiplier.

It also seems that you do not understand the "difficulty" of the tournaments, the difficulty is NOT in the battles itself, but in it's massive squad size.
It's all about reducing losses and 30% of 100 is way less than 5% of 1000.
With the spree of combat related buildings like fire phoenix, UUU, LR, MA and DA the battle difficulty is not the biggest hurdle.

Excuse me... Difficulty is the ratio of your squad size to the enemy squad size. I'm saying at province 50 level 6 difficulty should be 200% meaning regardless of your squad size, the enemy squad size would double whatever it is.

I understand the massive squad sizes... I ran out of troops on only province 19 this tournament on live... Unbelievable.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Truly, I taught math. I understand the exponent nature and what my suggestions are doing is reducing the size of one of the multiplication factors.

The spire formula that also held pretty close for calculating squad size has (0.003A+1) where A is the number of AW. Where I was looking the maximum number of AW levels was 1045 and I compared it to having maximum half the total AW levels in the formula, so 1045*.003 is 3.135 and add the 1 and you get 4.135 as the number multiplied in. If you use 565 you get 565*.003 is 1.695, add the 1 and you get 2.695.

It actually looks to me that they were out a decimal place in what got programmed. Should have been 0.0003. Then you'd have a multiplication factor of 1.3135 with all the AWs and 1.1695. with using half, but you'd be ok with a 30% extra squad size from the AWs. Just using the higher of the AWs helps, but it is still a huge multiplication factor.

The extra 25% for all of the premium expansions wouldn't matter so much if they just fixed the AW multiplier.

Sorry but I am happy you where not my math teacher, or if you where I was most likely that brat that annoyed you and corrected you.
If you "half" a multiplying value you might cover up the underlying problems for a bit longer, the extremes are then not as quickly visible.

It's not a solution in any shape way or form, at best it's a temporary patchup. so those that want to deny the issue can ignore it a bit longer.

Excuse me... Difficulty is the ratio of your squad size to the enemy squad size. I'm saying at province 50 level 6 difficulty should be 200% meaning regardless of your squad size, the enemy squad size would double whatever it is.

I understand the massive squad sizes... I ran out of troops on only province 19 this tournament on live... Unbelievable.

This response shows why you do not understand the tournaments at all.

You definition only works in an envoirment where "not able to win" a battle is the limiting factor, but with the correct wonder / combat building setup winning a battle is NOT an issue. so if winning a battle is not a problem, then it's not a difficulty.

100% vs 200% not an issue when you boost your units to be 200-250% stronger, then it's still a 200%+ vs 200% battle.

Consider this is climbing a 20 cm or a 40 cm wall a difficulty? at best it's an annoyance. that wall needs to grow to a good size before it becomes a difficulty. in this case a size thats beyong the normal boost range of units.

Only when you have more resources than win power is when winning becomes a difficulty. (read; you have all the units you need but simply cannot win the battle)

But in elvenar we can win battles, what we lack are units to field untill we reach that point of no longer winning.
So we are bound by units, and thats our difficulty, the tournaments are not a battle difficulty game, but a resource management game.
Once you are out of units to field, it's game over. you might be able to win if you field units but you have none to field.

Of course on the lower chapters winning is an issue, here difficulty might be either winning or resource depending on the case, but once you're on steam, there is no winning issue.

 

[CrazyWizard]

I'm not saying I have a problem with supplies. Merely saying that it's possible to run out of supplies, and that this shouldn't be disregarded.

Sure it's possible, but it's also possible to gain 2m+ supplies in 15 minutes with 6 magic workshops if you work them.
at that rate, you're a big boy if you are still supplies short

 

[maxiqbert]

Sure it's possible, but it's also possible to gain 2m+ supplies in 15 minutes with 6 magic workshops if you work them.
at that rate, you're a big boy if you are still supplies short

we're looking at exponential costs, so...