What is the point of Beta Feedback?

[SoggyShorts]

Full edit, because Soggy's shorts were full of....something.

Not knowing jack about how updates are developed and implemented I should have held off on any comments regarding the FS tournaments going live.
As @Marindor explains below, tweaking and altering code can be done after changes go live. Although this system still baffles me (since I would think that waiting to deliver a more polished product to the main playerbase would be better), there are other factors like bug fixes etc. rolled into an update that shouldn't wait.

I'd like to say I'm sorry to @Marindor . You have done a great job with the ideas section, and your efforts are very much appreciated. While I would still like to know which ideas have gotten the second stamp of approval from the developers a little more patience won't kill me.

Bottom line: I (mistakenly) assumed that the FS update going live meant that all of the suggested tweaks had been rejected.

Spoiler: orig. rant

On the US forums it was confirmed today that despite all of our feedback on the tournament FS, there will be zero changes when it goes to live servers.
Still the same 16h timers, 440,000 TP blueprints, no added functionality yet for blueprints, no FS rankings, nothing.

How about the dozen ideas that have been "forwarded to the developers" the last couple months? Not a word on any of them from an inno decision maker. I'm not asking for overnight implementation, but a response of some kind within a couple months doesn't seem like an unreasonable request.

I would say that we serve a purpose as bug-catchers, but even those go live after being confirmed here.

I'm very disappointed.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

Tho i feel your pain, and totally agree with it (and even ask the same questions). I think you are a day too early to post this.
Usually they do a patch of the version thats going to live servers, 1 hour or so before they install it on live servers.

So some of the changes might still be in there. altho i do not expect these things to be in a patch but in a real release.
The added functionality i kinda expect in the release of tomorrow or at least a hint to what it could do, the FS ranking thats a nice to have and will probably happen when they have time...
However the 440k was intentional, the 16h timers are intentional (as far as i remember, it used to be 20h cooldown and was allready lowered to 16h once, they tought it was fair then, why would they change their minds now), so to change those things, we are going to have to nag even more about it then we do now. And bring them up again every time there is a Q/A with the devs on facebook live...

 

[SoggyShorts]

I hope you are right. Best case scenario they do make some changes after telling their US server forum mods that they are not going to.
I understand that the 16h timers and 440K checkpoint are intentional, just like the 16:4:1 trade ratios. If they changed it from 20h to 16h once, maybe it's not set in stone.

so to change those things, we are going to have to nag even more about it then we do now. And bring them up again every time there is a Q/A with the devs on facebook live...

Discussions, charts, and graphs don't seem to have a great impact, so I think I'm done with those.
Maybe FB is the key, although the last one I remember everyone gearing up for was just some dude drawing.....

 

[Marindor]

As I've already stated on this forum before, all feedback is being considered very carefully and in regards to the Fellowship Tournaments: Changes are already being made, based upon your feedback. However, this does not mean we can wait with launching the Fellowship Tournaments to live because of some rebalancing. I won't go into too many complicated details, but what it comes down to is this: The Fellowship Tournaments are not something we can just turn on or off, but it's a complete rewrite of the tournaments code we had before. Because this new code is included in Game Version 1.21, it also means that 1.21 will get the Fellowship Tournaments on Live. This does not mean that it cannot be altered (and as said: We are already working on some alterations, which you will see shortly on Beta first). It does mean that we will not take days of developers time to rewrite everyting back to an old code, to re-rewrite it again in 2 weeks so it would get implemented in 1.22 . All game code is related and this is much more work than it might seem and definetely not worth the effort and extra time it would take.

About ideas that are being forwarded: Once approved, they're forwarded and they'll be considered. This does not mean they will be implemented within several weeks or even several months. Some will, some won't. Some will get priority straight away because they're in line with what we're working on at that moment and some will stay "on the shelves" for a long time because we have more important things to focus on now, are working on different aspects of the game, or because they are not fully in line with our vision for the game, but can be partly used for later alterations. When we decide to reject a proposed idea, we will let you know in the corresponding thread. As long as we don't announce it as rejected there, you can consider it still being valid. As you can also see in that forum, a lot of player ideas have already been implemented so I think it's quite unfair to state that we're not open to your ideas and to be honest, I'm disappointed to hear such an opinion after all the hours and effort we've put in reorganising the whole Ideas forum in the last couple of months.

 

[DeletedUser1657]

Program development is a very complex beast, something I have come to appreciate more recently. It takes time for ideas to be discussed, planned, tested, etc. and that is assuming they are approved and priortised.

Personally I enjoy coming to the beta forum and if I have an idea this is the only forum I will post it on now as I know @Marindor is looking at and working on that area. For other forums while I am sure there are meant to be processes in place the silence is deafening.

I have also appreciated the fact that this forum more then most gives me a clear understanding that our comments and feedback is being heard and having an impact. I see elements of this on other forums but it is more obvious to me from this one. I think of:

• in-game combat tips/UI
• wholesaler update/rework
• tournament review of reward levels

These are just some of the recent things I can think of that players have directly influenced, not even looking at the ideas section. I find if we can provide compelling arguments it goes a long way to having an impact.

If the developers waited until they had the perfect game sadly we would not even be playing right now. A good example is the MA, something that has been described as a key part of the game but was not added until well after the game started. I forget the time frame but if a key aspect of the overall game takes months to be implemented there is obviously a lot of things happening behind closed doors.

 

[DeletedUser1877]

New here, too new to actually feel qualified to comment on direction, but I will say the post above from Marindor was exactly what I needed to see. It makes perfect sense, in as far as the release(s) must be rolled out on certain dates. I could ask why that is, why say there will be an update on this date before it's actually ready, but I'm sure there is a good reason for that as well.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I was out of line @Marindor , and I've edited the original post to reflect that. I was so irritated at the thought of the FS suggestions being ignored (which they weren't) that I didn't even see the part where it said that player movement will be weekly!

Once approved, they're forwarded and they'll be considered. This does not mean they will be implemented within several weeks or even several months. Some will, some won't. Some will get priority straight away because they're in line with what we're working on at that moment and some will stay "on the shelves" for a long time because we have more important things to focus on now, are working on different aspects of the game, or because they are not fully in line with our vision for the game, but can be partly used for later alterations. When we decide to reject a proposed idea, we will let you know in the corresponding thread. As long as we don't announce it as rejected there, you can consider it still being valid.

This all makes perfect sense, I guess I was just hoping for more of a peek behind the curtain, to see which ideas have been sorted into which category.

As you can also see in that forum, a lot of player ideas have already been implemented so I think it's quite unfair to state that we're not open to your ideas and to be honest, I'm disappointed to hear such an opinion after all the hours and effort we've put in reorganising the whole Ideas forum in the last couple of months.

This makes me feel like I kicked a puppy, and rightly so. Your work on the forums has been excellent, and I have nothing but respect for those efforts. My lack of patience with waiting for the next step shouldn't reflect on you in any way. I believe now that I am simply mistaken in thinking that the next step is feedback from the developers, and it is actually just going to be an announcement that something is being implemented.
Edit: for example I and others said that for player movement to be effective it needs to happen every week. Long time no feedback, now *poof* weekly player movement.

 

[Marindor]

No problem, we can all be a little frustrated and want things to go faster at times. I'm glad to hear that our efforts are appreciated and to have been able to make clear that your feedback as well as your ideas are very much appreciated and never wasted. Thank you for these contributions because we need them and they are just as important as catching the bugs

 

[SoggyShorts]

Well it seems they implemented half of the feedback we gave on the wholesaler.
1. We wanted to keep the option to buy whatever type of goods we wanted. Fixed, thank you.
2. The prices are insane. buying 10 clicks costs 50:1 ratio. So a chapter 5 player that needs a quick 1500 marble has to pay 75,000 planks. 50:1 Still Brutal

 

[DeletedUser1596]

It looks like I'm a little late to join the debate, but after reading the new improvements I had this thought "what is the point of beta feedback" and BAAAM! I see Soggy's thread. So what's on my mind...

The Wholesaler is upside down. I can't say I could care less. I have enough of everything, so I don't mind it beeing this way, but what seems strange to me is that some time ago this community freaked out about a new wholesaler. The devs heard our cries and left it unchanged. The people here appreciated the move, everything went well. A few weeks later, the wholesaler is back. ...what feedback???

There are bugs on beta, which is fine. They are reported. One week later those bugs move onto live servers. Not so cool, but it can happen. Reported. Another week goes by, bugs everywhere. ...what feedback???

Every week people on this forum spend hours reading and posting their opinions, feedback and ideas. But there is not just this forum. Every live server has one. This means tons and tons of ideas. And after all these feedbacks and stuff we get the ability to turn off the clouds? Now don't get me wrong, I like that change, I know that the devs work on many other things like new races and so on, I know that they cannot make all our wishes come true, but from what I see I get this feeling that our feedback is read and appreciated only by forum moderators. Look at all those kilometers(0.6miles) of text here and now look how much it is reflected in the game. And that's what brought me here.

 

[Horanda]

This Wholesaler HAS been changed dramatically from what was offered earlier. Previously we had a total of 6 choices, one for each of the non-Boosted Goods, and if you did not have an excess of what he wanted for the Good you needed, you were out of luck. Now, there are three choices for each of the non-Boosted Goods and the initial offer (for me, at least) at the same ratio the old Wholesaler offered, making it perfect for what it was designed for, getting rid of an excess of Coin or Supplies.

If you need 1500 Marble urgently, as a Chapter V player, something has gone totally haywire with your planning, and you should be looking to your Fellowship for help, not the Wholesaler.

 

[SoggyShorts]

If you need 1500 Marble urgently, as a Chapter V player, something has gone totally haywire with your planning, and you should be looking to your Fellowship for help, not the Wholesaler.

I disagree. The wholesaler has always been a last resort, and dropping low on one type of good happens, especially if you are catering high level tournaments. How lame would it be to get stuck at 7/8 with very little time left, and the wholesaler wants 20:1?

 

[Marindor]

I'd like to address these 2 questions:

some time ago this community freaked out about a new wholesaler. The devs heard our cries and left it unchanged. The people here appreciated the move, everything went well. A few weeks later, the wholesaler is back. ...what feedback???

As @Horanda already stated above, the changes we brought now are totally different from the ones a few months ago. As we already announced back then, we would implement changes to the Wholesaler but based on the Beta feedback, we have changed them compared to what we had before. The new Wholesaler changes are totally in line with and based on the Beta feedback we had back then, so this is just a perfect example of how Beta feedback did make a huge impact on the live game.

There are bugs on beta, which is fine. They are reported. One week later those bugs move onto live servers. Not so cool, but it can happen. Reported. Another week goes by, bugs everywhere. ...what feedback???

In the Release Notes threads you will see new release notes after each hotfix we perform on Beta, with a list of the fixed bugs in that hotfix. All the bugs that are in that list, which are reported since the launch of that same game version, are already fixed in that version before the version goes to Live. As you can see, a lot of bugs are already fixed before the Live release, so they'll never make it to the Live servers. Unfortunately we cannot fix all the bugs before a version goes to live, but we always strive to fix as many as possible and we're doing quite a good job at that if you compare the number of reported bugs to the ones that are fixed in the latest game version before Live release

 

[SoggyShorts]

The new Wholesaler changes are totally in line with and based on the Beta feedback we had back then, so this is just a perfect example of how Beta feedback did make a huge impact on the live game.

I would say that half of the feedback was implemented.
Allowing players to buy any non-boosted good rather than a random one each day is indeed a perfect fix for the main issue.

The second issue however was not addressed. That being the increasing cost of exchanging boosted goods for non boosted.
The old wholesaler had a fixed rate of 5:1, and allowed purchases of 20,100, or 500.
Now at level 15 MH it's 150, and STARTS at 5:1, and reaches 27.5:1 on the 10th purchase
So if a chapter 5 player wanted to use their planks to buy 1500 marble it would cost around 25,000 planks instead of 7,500- more than 300% increase on an already prohibitive 5:1 ratio.
Even with just 3 clicks you go from 5:1 to 10:1

While I don't think players should use the wholesaler instead of the trader, making the exchange rate that bad makes it effectively useless. If re-balancing the exchange portion of it is off the table, that part should be replaced with something entirely different, or simply removed.

EDIT: "something completely different" could be anything-- pick a random good, and pair it with anything else, spells, troops, relics, even runes. Keep it dynamic, every day a different pairing. Instead of making the wholesaler less desirable all around, make players want to check it out.
EDIT2: Again, I'm only talking about the exchange portion, not the coins/supplies part, players still need something reliable to dump those into.

 

[Marindor]

That last part was considered, but the increasing rate is the way we intend it. The rates reset themselves daily, so the maths are indeed correct, IF you want to buy massive amounts on the same day. As stated above, the Wholesaler shouldn't be something you'd have to rely on like that. We want to focus more on player vs player trades (and Fellowship members who help each other), on using your own manufactories instead of buying large quantities of goods and on having to plan your next moves and tech tree expansions strategically instead of having to buy large amounts of goods at once.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I would hardly call 450-600 Tier 1 goods a "massive amount".

I still say if you want to steer players away from a certain playstyle, the better approach is to implement an alternative rather than nerf something into uselessness.

 

[DeletedUser1777]

There is a bad side effect with the massive increase of costs at the wholesaler:
Why should I visit my neighbours (waiste 1 hour) to dump afterwards my coins for almost nothing?

Don't get me wrong, it's okay when it's getting from trade to trade more expensive, but the raise is chosen too hard.
Wouldn't be 10% (of the basic trade amount) with every trade enough raise? So it's still getting very expensive, when you want to buy large amounts.

Again you're hitting the small players very hard. They won't get visited and it's already hard enough to get the needed ressourced to forward in tech tree.
Why don't you understand this big rocks you are placing in their way will have the effect of losing the interest in playing Elvenar?

AND:
In our feedback to the last change of wholesaler we already mentioned the increase is way to hard, yes you lowered it a bit, but not enough!

 

[DeletedUser1877]

True. The small player is finding it harder to get trades. The small player may indeed get less neighborly help. The small player is having more trouble getting into a fellowship with sizable players because of the new tournament routine, so he loses that help and those trading partners. With all this against him, and the puny amounts from the wholesaler at low levels at crazy costs, the smaller player cannot advance at a rate that will keep him/her here.

The Rich get richer, the Poor go away.

 

[SoggyShorts]

The Rich get richer, the Poor go away.

Well, actually no one get's richer from the new system, so "The rich get poorer, the poor go away" would be more accurate.

 

[Marindor]

Hi guys, since this thread is turning into a second 1.22 Feedback thread now and we want to avoid missing important feedback, please continue with your feedback on 1.22 and the Wholesaler in this thread. I will lock this thread now, since the original topic of this thread has already been covered