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Discussion Tournament changes

Uffauffa

Well-Known Member
so this went just to live servers :( worst update in my opinion of 2021
IMHO, worst update EVER. It leads to a very though problem in playability.
My +2 relics amount is decreasing month by month, and first of all this is due to the catalysts production like new FA arcane is asking for.
I wonder what will happen when I'll get the18th chapter. And when we'll get 19th, where the asking of +2 T2 should be held up (I fear).
A good start is the compromise coming from @Heymrdiedier.
Another way is rethinking ALL the relics system, not only the "relics for spell" request.
But something MUST be done, as this is a day after day erosion.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
Yes, formula works perfectly (both cities finished ch18):
beta(ex 137, wonders levels 155):
1636357668835.png

cz1(ex 155, wonder levels 499):
1636357634543.png


And now somebody can think about why so many players don't place expansions and destroy their wonders.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Yes, formula works perfectly (both cities finished ch18):
beta(ex 137, wonders levels 155):
View attachment 9535
cz1(ex 155, wonder levels 499):
View attachment 9534

And now somebody can think about why so many players don't place expansions and destroy their wonders.
Making the point completely here... 113% squad size increase between these two cities.
Could you please share the AWs and levels between the two cities?
 

galrond

Well-Known Member
It is a big difference indeed.
The larger city should be able to produce more troops (and goods), and make up for some of the gap.
The big question is: how much can you increase your production with the extra space and wonderlevels?
@Lovec Krys How far can the two cities go on a "normal" tournament?
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@galrond I don't realy know, but i usualy stop between province 30 and 35 with my main city (+ sometimes few extra by negotiating for event quests), this way my time instant stock is slowly growing. I could probably go few provinces further each tournament without draining my time instants stock and without using additional booster buildings (i'm using 4+2+2 combo for two Spires & two tournaments).
But if i wanted to, i could go all the way to the end by using more time instants & booster buildings temporary (In unsustainable amounts, i have large enough stock for that).

My beta city has probably lower capacity since it has never been optimized for tournaments and Simia 12 , Martial Monastery 16 and Dragon Abbey 6 are the only military wonders i have there.
So i don't do more than 15 provinces and 5 rounds on beta (16h cooldown).
And often i forget to do some rounds on beta (side effect of having 0 cooldown in my main city), so sometimes only 2 or 3 rounds when i realize on friday that i had done only 1 round so far.
But i have never tested my true abilities there. I'm using the same 4+2+2 combo, but only for 2 rounds of Spire, so usualy only 1 or 2 rounds of tournaments are affected by them, the rest runs only on Fire Phoenix.


@SoggyShorts
Golden Abyss 30 for max population
Needles 26 for Archer bonus & Barracks training speed
Monastery 30 for max. HP bonus (culture bonus is a good side effect).
Watchtower Ruins 21 for more culture (and less need for cultural building giving 0 ranking points).
Thrones 23 for more ranking points (some culture as a side effect).
Mountain Halls 30 for max population.
Prosperity Towers 16 for more tools and better Power of Provision spell effect (97k/3h and 349k/3h is a big difference).
Heroes' Forge 11 for Heavy Melee bonus.
Shrooms 17 for bigger effect of Armories on training size (i have 16 armories to have training queue over 20h to be able to use 20h time instants).
Flying Academy 26 to increase speed of Mercenary camp
Maze of Dark Matter 31 mainly for the 2% mana decay (once upon a time deleted on 11 then rebuilt to keep up with milions of mana requirements)
Dragon Abbey 26 for Mage damage and fast mana from spells when needed
Temple of the Toads 18 to increase the heave ranged dmg.
Elvenar Trade Center 35 for Magical manufacturing spell boost + some extra seeds
Sunset Towers 22 for lowering the seed decay (3,8% currently)
Pyramid of Purification 19 originaly mainly for some extra expired(sentient) goods + some extra units. I could live without this one, but with so many armories the bonus production from orcs can help when trader is switched to unurium.
Time Warp 30 for 0 cooldown when Polar Bear is fed.
Simia 35 for 2% expired goods decay and 46% extra unit production (basicaly one more pernament brown bear without feeding)
Thermal Springs 35 for maxing population on residences (i don't use pop/cult buildings with exception of some evos and sets giving other more useful bonuses).

Some wonders have quite a big difference in levels, mainly due to prioritizing one over another to max one as soon as possible.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
@galrond I don't realy know, but i usualy stop between province 30 and 35 with my main city (+ sometimes few extra by negotiating for event quests), this way my time instant stock is slowly growing. I could probably go few provinces further each tournament without draining my time instants stock and without using additional booster buildings (i'm using 4+2+2 combo for two Spires & two tournaments).
But if i wanted to, i could go all the way to the end by using more time instants & booster buildings temporary (In unsustainable amounts, i have large enough stock for that).

My beta city has probably lower capacity since it has never been optimized for tournaments and Simia 12 , Martial Monastery 16 and Dragon Abbey 6 are the only military wonders i have there.
So i don't do more than 15 provinces and 5 rounds on beta (16h cooldown).
And often i forget to do some rounds on beta (side effect of having 0 cooldown in my main city), so sometimes only 2 or 3 rounds when i realize on friday that i had done only 1 round so far.
But i have never tested my true abilities there. I'm using the same 4+2+2 combo, but only for 2 rounds of Spire, so usualy only 1 or 2 rounds of tournaments are affected by them, the rest runs only on Fire Phoenix.

So, the city you were saying has too big of a penalty does much better in tournaments than the one without the penalty?

Personally, I'd rather have the city with the higher penalty but better tourney results.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@ekarat It does, so it did before tournaments were changed.
My beta city was never a tournament city, if it wasn't in a FS, it would often do 0 in tournaments. It's purpose is to test new things and to have first hand information. So the city is there only for costs comparison.
Given some time i could optimize it to give better results than with my main city (the costs would be still much lower there).

And if my main city was only about tournaments, i would simply join the group "Don't place the expansions, delete any unnecessary wonders, don't advance into new chapters" (and probably quit later).
Before new formula was introduced, my tournament average was above 10k, now it's around 8,5k and only getting lower in the future.
I have already used all the main tricks to retain the score and was forced to switch from negotiation to fight in Spire (too costly in the 3rd floor) and lost ability to be sustainably in top 10 tournament scores, i have fallen to the average 20 to 30 and sometimes even to 50.
Simply the formula is hurting me more over time.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
@ekarat It does, so it did before tournaments were changed.
My beta city was never a tournament city, if it wasn't in a FS, it would often do 0 in tournaments. It's purpose is to test new things and to have first hand information. So the city is there only for costs comparison.
Given some time i could optimize it to give better results than with my main city (the costs would be still much lower there).

And if my main city was only about tournaments, i would simply join the group "Don't place the expansions, delete any unnecessary wonders, don't advance into new chapters" (and probably quit later).
Before new formula was introduced, my tournament average was above 10k, now it's around 8,5k and only getting lower in the future.
I have already used all the main tricks to retain the score and was forced to switch from negotiation to fight in Spire (too costly in the 3rd floor) and lost ability to be sustainably in top 10 tournament scores, i have fallen to the average 20 to 30 and sometimes even to 50.
Simply the formula is hurting me more over time.

Thank you. That was a very thoughtful response.
And I do agree with you that the current formula is too harsh.
Our disagreement is largely that I believe that the tech portion has an exponent that is too high, so costs ramp up faster than you gain power through tech, whereas a well-thought out city can build quite a few AW levels that outpace the penalties for AWs and expansions.

All in all, I want the devs to lower the tech exponent, rather than simply scale back the penalty by a constant multiplicative factor.
I don't expect the penalties to be completely rolled back because it was too easy to push before. I can see why they wanted to limit that -- I just think they went too far.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Thank you. That was a very thoughtful response.
And I do agree with you that the current formula is too harsh.
Our disagreement is largely that I believe that the tech portion has an exponent that is too high, so costs ramp up faster than you gain power through tech, whereas a well-thought out city can build quite a few AW levels that outpace the penalties for AWs and expansions.

All in all, I want the devs to lower the tech exponent, rather than simply scale back the penalty by a constant multiplicative factor.
I don't expect the penalties to be completely rolled back because it was too easy to push before. I can see why they wanted to limit that -- I just think they went too far.
Each part is evenly flawed, it makes no sense that you can get a fraction of the costs because you did place as less expansions as possible.
Same with wonderlevels, after you placed the military ones every extra level kinda sucks

Each part of it sucks just as much, on each part it makes no "tourney/spire sense so continue. just focussing on 1 part makes no sense of all 3 do the same dumb thing
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
Each part is evenly flawed, it makes no sense that you can get a fraction of the costs because you did place as less expansions as possible.
Same with wonderlevels, after you placed the military ones every extra level kinda sucks

Each part of it sucks just as much, on each part it makes no "tourney/spire sense so continue. just focussing on 1 part makes no sense of all 3 do the same dumb thing

I do care about the scaling, particularly how it grows over future chapters.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
hm... my tournament SS went down from 725 to 633 this week.
~the same noticed on EN forum
@Marindor any comments from dev team?

People have noticed on the US servers too, but no real info or concrete numbers. Everyone who tracks their weekly numbers should be able to tell us something after the Spire starts tomorrow, if that has changed too.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
People have noticed on the US servers too, but no real info or concrete numbers. Everyone who tracks their weekly numbers should be able to tell us something after the Spire starts tomorrow, if that has changed too.
I did not notice on the US server, but did notice on the beta server.
 

Marindor

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
I checked and there seems to have been an error somewhere which should be resolved soon. Sorry for the confusion!
 

Avocado

Well-Known Member
I'm reading these last posts about the differences in fighting/catering costs in the two cities of @Lovec Krys mouth gaping wide open....??? Did I understand this right? There has always been a tournament penalty for wonder levels and extensions?! And now with the new formula (what is this formula exactly? Is it written anywhwere?) this penalty is just too extreme? Is it that, what you are saying? I never heard of that penalty. All the time I overscout a lot for extensions and level the military wonders like crazy aiming for what Lovec Krys did in his main city, aiming to have a great tournament city, but also a "normal" city. (So far it is doing fine in tournaments Chap IX). So is this a strategy which will lead to ruining the citys tournament power?
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I'm reading these last posts about the differences in fighting/catering costs in the two cities of @Lovec Krys mouth gaping wide open....wtf??? Did I understand this right? There has always been a tournament penalty for wonder levels and extensions?! And now with the new formula (what is this formula exactly? Is it written anywhwere?) this penalty is just too extreme? Is it that, what you are saying? I never heard of that penalty. All the time I overscout a lot for extensions and level the military wonders like crazy aiming for what Lovec Krys did in his main city, aiming to have a great tournament city, but also a "normal" city. (So far it is doing fine in tournaments Chap IX). So is this a strategy which will lead to ruining the citys tournament power?
wonders, expansions and research, yes the formula is known and researched by minmaxgamer (google his blog)
depending on how you build your city a tournament in the same chapter you can see differences bigger than 4x.

It's broken and they knew it since we pointed that out when they chanced it.
 
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