Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

[Maillie]

If you actually believe that every fellowship has 25 players that can score 1600 points I'm afraid you might be dreaming. In four years I've been in numerous fellowships, and so far I've been in one that can do 10 chests once a month, and that's my fellowship in Winyandor, and I have never once seen 25 players score 1600 points. The top fellowships can, I'm sure of that, but they are certainly not the majority, nor should they be. They are unique and should stay unique. You have to keep in mind that they have minimum requirements to join. It's quite doubtful that they have cities with 2 houses and a workshop.

 

[Konys]

depending on your time zone doing 6 rounds with the current tournament schedule varies from very inconvinient to nearly impossible

I wouldn't say nearly impossible, but maybe difficult; some players have polar bear and/or Time Warp helping with cooldown, but those who - for any reasons- haven't them, can always use time reducer instants (and they are not that hard to get).

 

[edeba]

The whole point of the request to reduce repetition was because doing that many provinces wasn't fun because of how long it took.

When we went from version 1 to version 2, there was the same heated debate before, and I was in the arguing against changes group, however, with version 2 I went out 27 provinces for level 1 and 2 for the very first tournament and then did 5-10 provinces on the rest of the levels. That was what hooked me on the tournament and is SPECIFICALLY what made version 2 so well liked.

This new tournament is version 3 and they didn't ease it back that people could go out for as many provinces as they have open, they made it so doing those first two levels here on beta, which this week was going out 44 provinces, I used 9 days of good production, and my city is strong in goods production. I two+ weeks of orc production and I didn't even have orcs in the tournament last week. I used an unsustainable level of supply and coin boosts.

This is finished chapter 16 game on live, where each armory makes 1600 orcs/12 hours at province 64 level 6 in version 2:

This is my early woodelves (chapter 9) on beta on level 2 and orc requirements equal it somewhere between province 28 and 32 LEVEL 2 where I made 360 orc/12 hours.

So, lets put this into perspective, 1600/360 means that in comparison to what my live game can produce on an EQUAL number of amories basis, this "EQUAL" requirement for my 6.5 chapters earlier game is 444% of the effort of my chapter 16 live game at LESS than half the provinces out 4 levels down.

I need 15x12hour orc production to negotiate once encounter at this level.

Certainly there is a massive difference in the good requirement shown, but the live game shot is 6.5 chapters later at 3x the level and double the provinces out, and the level of goods required was recognized as problem needing fixing.

When I read that People do 60-80 Provinces in a Tourney I am just .... I dunno, surprised? Speechless? In disbelieve?

How can those many Provinces be any fun? Why would someone do that? (Guess the answer is: a bunch of Kps )
And honestly, I can't imagine that Inno had players in mind, that do 80 provinces when they introduced Tournaments ...

For sure strong players will no longer be able to give an extra push to make it.

How is this change going to affect fellowships that do the 10 chests push once in each cycle - during the steel tournament? It seems to me that casual fellowships with limited number of tournament players loose the occasional opportunity to win the blueprint. Are there such fellowships on beta? How do you see the changes?? Can you share your feedback, please?

The increase in orc requirements is insane.

I cleared just 8 provinces yesterday and then gave up, today I've managed to get a bit further but the cost is just far too high when my troops die regardless of combination I put up and I have to pay 5k orcs when I have just 25k in stock.

Most of my tournament points on beta had been coming from the first two levels. They didn't do any analysis of where the people were getting their points, or if they did, this was a deliberate game slaughter.

Mmhmm. 25 players doing 6 provinces 6 times is totally unrealistic for 99% of fellowships
5 players doing 10 x2
5 players doing 10 x 4
5 players doing 15 x4
5 players doing 20 x2
5 players doing significantly more
used to be a more normal Fellowship success formula that allowed at least a bit for real-life schedules.

Inno is consistent in poor application of math. The orc example shows the insanity. This is not the first demonstration of a lack of numeracy specifically with the orcs. Inno to math is COVID to Trump.

Oh realy? Minor impact? The same minor impact as the AW's levels?
Well, mayby then you could explain me why this minor impact in expansions & AW levels does already 76% difference in the Spire costs between my beta city and my live city (both in Embassies, beta max. 10 researches behind live)?

I will tell you: Because they multiply and create an exponencial effect. And the whole formula is wrong in the core for this exact reason. And you will see it to have major impact with each next chapters on increasing number of end game players (because of the exponencial impact with each new research, expansion & AW levels multiplying each other).

They didn't consider any of this. I don't get why Inno is ALWAYS so intent on punishing its most active players.

very much. Do understand that fellowships are not orderly robots. People do or do not do and participate according to their level of involvement. There are many FS that get 10 chests due to top 4 contenders. And many who push it one a month. What about those ?
And why are most avid gamers crushed. Avid gamers are more loyal to the game than casual gamers.

Orc demands are way too high to start. I think you have something in the formula that when goods are reduced, it is made up in orcs. Around chapter 13 to 15 I tracked catering costs and I found that it worked out fairly constant if each orc was counted as something like 1600 to 1700 goods. It looks like orc costs are more than making up for reduced goods costs.

Here my proposal showing difficulty before, and an increasing level of difficulty that would actually make it easier for more challenged players, and not slaughter advanced players, but gradually increase the difficulty level. I reduced starting by effectively what would be a full level compared to the old tournament and did a 1% increase on the base units. I did half the previous level increase, instead of 0.15, 0.075. This model considers that a lot of people were getting most of their points from the first two levels, which the highest difficult was 1.0. It passes that difficult at province 30 for level 1 and province 24 for level 2.

We are certainly not going to rush this. We have indeed planned more time for this than usual, since it's quite a significant change and we indeed want to process all the feedback and data and get it right before implementing it on Live. How long that will take, will depend on the way things develop from here, but we're not going to push it as long as it's not ready yet.

 

[Deleted User - 88198]

Hi Marindor,

Couldn't do too much yet as I only started beta just to get a look at the tournament changes.
So for what it's worth;

In principle I do like the 5 troops, so it's easier to assess the enemy strength.
The problem for new players is that now they are always combinations that require manual fighting and not everyone has that
(I originate from the app).
Especially when you compare the fight difficulty with negotiating/catering,
I can easily see how app users will always opt for this, especially in the early chapters.

Can't say how the losses would be with more advanced units available, but even then I know I already negotiate in the old tournament when the mix is difficult, so this would probably be my go to option for the app.

Would there sometimes be 'easy' mixes in the 5 troops? So far I haven't seen them.

Thanks,
Martenor

 

[Deleted User - 87976]

I wouldn't say nearly impossible, but maybe difficult; some players have polar bear and/or Time Warp helping with cooldown, but those who - for any reasons- haven't them, can always use time reducer instants (and they are not that hard to get).

From what I see at the map around me in my live world, the game already have some issues with keeping the new players. One of the recent updates event tried to target this issue by making the Dwarves chapter easier. And now this change is making it harder for the new players to get into an active FS. The polar bear is unavaliable outside of the events (btw it was the only evolving building usable at stage 1, and it got removed from the MA), timewarp is a chapter 14 AW, and time instants are not hard to get when you can get the FS rewards from the spire, and that requires being in the chapter 3 and significant investment of resources which isn't something a beginning player can afford on a weekly basis.

 

[Pauly7]

I wouldn't say nearly impossible, but maybe difficult; some players have polar bear and/or Time Warp helping with cooldown, but those who - for any reasons- haven't them, can always use time reducer instants (and they are not that hard to get).

What you have to realise is that this model requires 25 people in one team all prepared to fight equally for the cause. If people are prepared to do that then everyone will make 1,600 points, no matter the timezone or whether they have Polar Bears and Timewarps. So this works out for the top echelon of FSs who have all dedicated people, but teams with more casual players will now fail. In the past it was fine if your group had half casual players, (or even more), but it looks like that flexibility is disappearing.

So when 7 (let's say) of a fellowship have a bad week, because they were busy or low on resources, in the old system others could pick up that slack. This was also kind of good for the camaraderie element, but that will now be gone.

So tournaments now become - Each tournament is the same. Each player must get the same number of points each week. Each player must get the same number of points as each other each week. Everyone always collects the same resources and troops every week.

And the idea is to make tournaments less tedious?

 

[guivou]

I wouldn't say nearly impossible, but maybe difficult; some players have polar bear and/or Time Warp helping with cooldown, but those who - for any reasons- haven't them, can always use time reducer instants (and they are not that hard to get).

it's not realistic to think that people will use time reducer to achieve 6 turn, the main usage of this time reducer is to rebuilt troups (and will be more usefull for that than before ) , don't forget that pepole playing for less than one year have no evolved bear

 

[Sepulba]

When trying to decide if its harder or easier now, do not forget to take into account that previously 4 fights, is now 1 fight. So i don't think you can look at the base numbers and compare them, it would be better to compare your total losses/costs.

Before, when I did same provinces, I used max 2 types of squads, but mainly 1, and at the end I had much less losses as now.
This tournament I started with 34 light melee squads and after 15 provinces remain 3,2. Beforeit was aroud 20 what remain.
So Please dont tell me that is easier.
2nd, How we can replenish our army between tournaments?? all types? when we dont know which type of squads we will use next tournament? or all squads? not possible .

 

[Aeva]

I wouldn't say nearly impossible, but maybe difficult; some players have polar bear and/or Time Warp helping with cooldown, but those who - for any reasons- haven't them, can always use time reducer instants (and they are not that hard to get).

I am a mage in a top fellowship on live (NL1). We do 10 chests every week plus the golden spire. In my fellowship the top ten is able to secure the 10th chest. We are the exceptions in our world (with a few select other FS). Most of the other members of our FS do struggle to get 1600 points, some never do. Almost all the FS in my world, let's say 90 %, will never or rarely make it to 10 chests.
Untill recently I myself have had a hard time playing six rounds even with a level 10 polar bear. A few days ago I placed AW timewarp (after chapter 14 was finished) and this makes a huge difference. But before I did about 40-45 provinces twice in order to be able to have a decent score.
And there is this: 6 rounds in 4 days with a cooldown of 16 hours is not normal if you also have a job, a family and a normal life. This is a game, supposed to be fun and relaxing, not an all consuming daily task.

 

[DeletedUser3289]

I wouldn't say nearly impossible, but maybe difficult; some players have polar bear and/or Time Warp helping with cooldown, but those who - for any reasons- haven't them, can always use time reducer instants (and they are not that hard to get).

Why should they. They stand at a disadvantage spending their time instant in such unproductive ways while they can use it to other beneficial ways.

 

[DeletedUser3289]

And beyond the 10 chests, we all like to do well in a tournament one or twice in 9 weeks.
we have level 35 AWs to raise.
what about them?
its fun to do a big tourney. Why deny us that. When many people have actually spent money towards that goal in events + military buildings as such.

 

[Alcaro]

I will not talk anymore about how hard is to play the tournament with the last changes, all was covered already, with numbers and explanations (ty guys - some of you should be on Inno's payroll!).
When I woke up I saw we got the 10th chest. Yay! to my brave FS! Love you guys! Then I took a look at the 11th chest and I was stunned. Even though I knew the rewards, still, it was a bad bad, very bad feeling. First, why 11k points for 11th chest? Just to match the numbers? Normally should be 9k. Then the rewards ... oh yeah ... "rewards" it's a hyper overstatement!!!!! In what world do you live where doing more brings less???? The 11th chest should have better rewards than the 10th. Don't you think it would make sense? I could live with those lousy rewards if in rest nothing would have changed in the tournaments. But now, with hard to get over 2k TP tournaments, those rewards are really a slap on the face. Stop being so cheap and give real rewards to incetivize ppl to slaughter their hard achieved troops or cater until the warehouse is empty! ... or to wake up during the night for getting 6 rounds ... oh well ... this tournament I'll make an exception (just to see what's possible) but I will not screw my real life for something that actually frustrates me.
Inno, can you stop please draining the fun out of this game? Can you? Do you really care about us and all the years we played, all the cash you got from us?

EDIT: my bad, 11th chest needs 10k points.
Ty @Karvest

 

[Karvest]

First, why 11k points for 11th chest?

11 chest = 10k...

 

[Deleted User - 88314]

I wouldn't say nearly impossible, but maybe difficult; some players have polar bear and/or Time Warp helping with cooldown, but those who - for any reasons- haven't them, can always use time reducer instants (and they are not that hard to get).

Help me understand why should any small player use their time instances just to get 1600? I have people in my FS who do not make a minimum of 800, but they don't need to, we always were able to compensate. With the new system that is taken away, and you making it a chore and a must.

 

[Verde]

Just managed the last Rune Shard for the Martial Monastery in my little Beta city ... to build or not to build, that is the question?

 

[DeletedUser3289]

I will not talk anymore about how hard is to play the tournament with the last changes, all was covered already, with numbers and explanations (ty guys - some of you should be on Inno's payroll!).
When I woke up I saw we got the 10th chest. Yay! to my brave FS! Love you guys! Then I took a look at the 11th chest and I was stunned. Even though I knew the rewards, still, it was a bad bad, very bad feeling. First, why 11k points for 11th chest? Just to match the numbers? Normally should be 9k. Then the rewards ... oh yeah ... "rewards" it's a hyper overstatement!!!!! In what world do you live where doing more brings less???? The 11th chest should have better rewards than the 10th. Don't you think it would make sense? I could live with those lousy rewards if in rest nothing would have changed in the tournaments. But now, with hard to get over 2k TP tournaments, those rewards are really a slap on the face. Stop being so cheap and give real rewards to incetivize ppl to slaughter their hard achieved troops or cater until the warehouse is empty! ... or to wake up during the night for getting 6 rounds ... oh well ... this tournament I'll make an exception (just to see what's possible) but I will not screw my real life for something that actually frustrates me.
Inno, can you stop please draining the fun out of this game? Can you? Do you really care about us and all the years we played, all the cash you got from us?

Why have you not scaled the rewards with the difficulty?
If 20th province is as lossy as 60th province, shouldn’t you pack 600kp as rewards within the first 20 provinces.
Then it is in line with what people actually asked.
Less rhetorical tourney + challenge + rewards that merit the challenge.

 

[Dimma]

Hi. I've just unlocked chapter 8 and the new tournament is great so far . I don't really get how to fight but my losses are much less with the new system. With the old I've pretty much done the ones I've needed and saved up plutons inbetween but it feels like I will do more now. Will be exiting to se how the changes are in my home server where I have reached the next last chapter.
Thumbs up from me Inno

 

[Karvest]

Chapter 8 was a sweet spot even with old tournament system. Now it becomes even more sweet due to not having orcs in catering + having all barracks troops at 3* level.

 

[Deleted User - 88314]

Just managed the last Rune Shard for the Martial Monastery in my little Beta city ... to build or not to build, that is the question?

always build MM regardless what else is going on

 

[Deleted User - 88314]

I will not talk anymore about how hard is to play the tournament with the last changes, all was covered already, with numbers and explanations (ty guys - some of you should be on Inno's payroll!).
When I woke up I saw we got the 10th chest. Yay! to my brave FS! Love you guys! Then I took a look at the 11th chest and I was stunned. Even though I knew the rewards, still, it was a bad bad, very bad feeling. First, why 11k points for 11th chest? Just to match the numbers? Normally should be 9k. Then the rewards ... oh yeah ... "rewards" it's a hyper overstatement!!!!! In what world do you live where doing more brings less???? The 11th chest should have better rewards than the 10th. Don't you think it would make sense? I could live with those lousy rewards if in rest nothing would have changed in the tournaments. But now, with hard to get over 2k TP tournaments, those rewards are really a slap on the face. Stop being so cheap and give real rewards to incetivize ppl to slaughter their hard achieved troops or cater until the warehouse is empty! ... or to wake up during the night for getting 6 rounds ... oh well ... this tournament I'll make an exception (just to see what's possible) but I will not screw my real life for something that actually frustrates me.
Inno, can you stop please draining the fun out of this game? Can you? Do you really care about us and all the years we played, all the cash you got from us?

Agree 100%, you have my vote!!!