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Discussion Release Notes version 1.25 + Tournaments rebalancing

DeletedUser1657

Guest
My Shadow said:
Could somebody point me in the direction of the tread or threads where people were complaining about this?
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I don't recall seen specific thread just comments within other threads related to combat and or tournaments. Way too much information to search to find the exact posts across the forums I lurk. Whether there was a specific thread from a different forum .... no idea.

This has multiple facets to it. The part related to time is the 4 encounters instead of 8, something not many have mentioned but I expect most are happy with, I sure am. There are other facets though that make up the whole package or from previous update like AI that impacts this update.
 
Heymrdiedier

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
My Shadow said:
Also making the timer go from 12 hours to 16 hours makes the tournaments more time consuming my friend. Used to be we would go as far as we wanted or could but that seems to be no longer an option.
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It never was 12 hours? it was 20 hours and went down to 16 hours
 

DeletedUser1721

Guest
Heymrdiedier said:
It never was 12 hours? it was 20 hours and went down to 16 hours
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I'm guessing they must have seen all the requests for a twelve hour timer and figured they were requests to go back to the way it was before a change.

My requests for twelve hour timers have never really been about "needing more time" so much as they have been about "very hard to make 16 hour timers and still work eight hours a day".
 

DeletedUser1721

Guest
This last tournament on my main city, I had 15k steel going into the fifth round Saturday morning, right before I had to go to work. It ended up being enough to finish half of one province, nothing near the two provinces I was hoping for. Of course, since I was going to work, I couldn't trade for more, so my fellowship was short the 1k points we were expecting, and we didn't get the rune shard chest we were hoping for. It feels very frustrating that at 7 am, with the tournament ending at 1 pm, I had all the resources to trade to complete the provinces after trades were accepted, had the time to complete the provinces, but because the timer ended before my work ended I couldn't complete them.
 

DeletedUser1882

Guest
I just had a chance to read all the ink spilled on the rewards changes. I thought this would be worth adding, as it will help explain my negative reaction.

Comparing runes to KP is hard, but there is one direct connection... diamonds. 2KP is a reward that the game values at 90 diamonds. 1 rune shard is valued by the game at 15 diamonds. So if you are trying to replace a 2KP reward with a similar value of rune shards, the conversion is obvious- you give the player 6 rune shards. If replacing 6KP in a reward with rune shards, you give 18 rune shards.

I hope the game designers can look at two piles of coins, one with 15 units of value, and the other with 90 units of value and quickly realize that, given the choice, they would consistently choose the more valuable pile. Whatever motivates them to prefer 90 units over 15 units also makes players prefer 2KP to a rune shard. Once they grasp this concept, they can extend the idea to see why players prefer 4kp over a rune shard (180 is also bigger than 15) and why players prefer 6KP over a rune shard (the theorem about the relative magnitude of 270 and 15 is left as an exercise.)

If more detail on this feedback is needed, I can provide it, but when the designers grasp this piece of motivational psychology, I think the strong reaction will make more sense to them.
 
Marindor

Marindor

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone,

Please see our answers to some of your concerns in the opening post of this thread now. If you feel that a certain topic has still been left unanswered, please let us know so we can discuss it for you :)
 

Dony

King of Bugs
Muf-Muf said:
We will now always ask for a significant number of troops, depending on the player’s progress. Before we could have the case that a new player couldn’t participate because the tournaments asked for way too many units, and advanced players would be able to participate without paying any significant number of units at all. Now, this is more balanced, but that of course doesn’t mean “more easy”.
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I have no problem with bigger squad sizes nor with based on tech tree, problem is that this solution is incredibly short sighted and i can already tell you that on the next year or even later this your you will rebalance it because it will be unbearable, when i am back at home i will post once again chart with more explanation where your developers failed with this.
 

Deleted User - 60107

Guest
@Marindor
There's a major issue with the new battle AI. Here are two examples:
1) Battle setup is like this: 2 empty hexes, 1 hex occupied by a squad of Elven Archers, 3 more empty hexes, 1 hex occupied by a squad of Swamp Monsters
What happens: The Swamp Monsters move 1 (ONE!) hex towards the Archers. When my turn comes I move the Archers 1 hex back and shoot. Next the Swamp Monsters again move 1 (ONE!) hex towards the Archers. When my turn comes I again move the Archers 1 hex back and shoot. Next the Swamp Monsters for the third time move 1 (ONE!) hex towards the Archers. Then my Archers finish them off

2) Battle setup is like this: 1 empty hex, 1 hex occupied by a squad of Sacred Priests, 4 more empty hexes, 1 hex occupied by a squad of Swamp Monsters
What happens: The Swamp Monsters move 1 (ONE!) hex towards the Priests. When my turn comes I move the Priests 1 hex back and shoot. Next the Swamp Monsters again move 1 (ONE!) hex towards the Priests. When my turn comes my Priests finish off the Swamp Monsters.

This behavior (moving one hex instead of two even though there's nothing preventing the enemy from moving 2 hexes) makes NO SENSE! If it was a ranged unit, such as Archers or Crossbowmen, maybe it would make sense in some cases. But for a melee-only unit such as Swamp Monsters and Treants, it makes no sense and leads to increased losses for Heavy Melee (and possibly Light Melee) troops. It's especially stupid against Priests, as moving 1 space leaves the Swamp Monsters still 3 hexes away, so they would not be able to attack the Priests next turn.


Could you please check with the people responsible if this Artifcicial Idiocy is intended? And if yes - what is the logic behind such dumb moves?

For the record, this issue is present both on Beta and on Live, and both in tournaments and in provinces.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Muf-Muf said:
Players get way less KP and Relics while that is mainly what they do tournaments for. Especially newer players need these resources. Players don't care much about spells and not even really about the broken shards.
The old tournament rewards were kind of broken, and therefore we had to make changes. The AWs were not much of a valuable feature in Elvenar, but with the upcoming AW rebalancing, the broken shards will also become more valuable with that. The goal is to get the broken shards to be “the reward players want”, since AWs will become significantly more useful. We are also working on other rewards (like more appealing spells) but they are not ready yet. We will implement them as soon as they are. To tell you the truth: When we initially made the tournaments, we didn’t have the technical possibilities to give out the rewards we wanted to, so instead we gave out “mediocre” rewards in big numbers. And that is doing damage now, so we have to change that.
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I don't understand why kps are considered as "mediocre" rewards by the developers, while players consider kps as very good rewards. I consider spells as "poor" awards. On my Dutch account I rarely use then, and because I get them also for giving NH the numbers range from 70 to 100+ now. My MA only makes mediation spells, because that's the only way to get them.
If the rewards are linked to the upcoming AW rebalancing, why does the change in tournaments comes before that in the updates? Wouldn't it make more sense if the order of changes were reversed?


Muf-Muf said:

The size depends completely on the player’s progress.
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Could you explain this a little further? Progress in scouting? In the tree? Based on the number of Squad Size Upgrade you have researched or could have researched?
 
Heymrdiedier

Heymrdiedier

Well-Known Member
Dony said:
I have no problem with bigger squad sizes nor with based on tech tree.
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I do have a a problem with bigger squad sizes being based on OPTIONAL techs. That means i could just make a new account skip all the optional ones, and have an way easier tournament then i have now.
Making the optional techs obligated is probably the way you will solve it, but thats still better then it is now :)
 

Dony

King of Bugs
Heymrdiedier said:
I do have a a problem with bigger squad sizes being based on OPTIONAL techs. That means i could just make a new account skip all the optional ones, and have an way easier tournament then i have now.
Making the optional techs obligated is probably the way you will solve it, but thats still better then it is now :)
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of course that tech must be made mandatory immediatelly
 

DeletedUser1721

Guest
Marindor said:
Hi everyone,

Please see our answers to some of your concerns in the opening post of this thread now. If you feel that a certain topic has still been left unanswered, please let us know so we can discuss it for you :)
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My primary concern is with the fact that the devs are addressing the fact that the rewards for the tournament are currently absolutely not desirable.... by saying it will be fixed in a later release. I can say, with certainty, that if this goes live, players on live are going to quit, rather than hang around waiting for an update to fix it. This is part of what I meant earlier when I was talking about updates that only make sense in the context of future updates. If something breaks the game as it is when it is released, making it unplayable until a future update is released.... it's not a good update, whether it's going to be fixed in the future or not.

I would also like more clarification on how the devs are going to be changing Ancient Wonders, because as it is now... we need large amount of relics to upgrade our ancient wonders, and also to boost our goods production. By nerfing the tournament rewards into the ground, suddenly we can't get the relics we need from tournaments. World maps will be addressed "some time" which means that between now and whenever that "some time" happens, we won't be able to get the relics we need from the world map either. That leaves the players in an untenable position if the Ancient Wonder update is not going to remove the relics requirement.

Pretty much, would like the devs to do something now, even if it's only acknowledged to be temporary until other things are added, to make it easier to get from this current update, where things changed, to the update where the things to make the rest of the system in line with the way things are now.

Perhaps the devs could add, to the patch notes, the "new" rewards for tournaments, but reinstate the old rewards along with an announcement that "rewards will be changed to these new rewards when x changes are also made"? That would be much better than changing the tournament rewards before they add a change to provide alternate sources of relics. There's too much that depends on relics now, under the current system, to just take away all the sources of relics before another way to get them is added in.
 
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DeletedUser1721

Guest
Urvalsandal said:
Well, it finally feels like someone is reading this forum, thank you.
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I agree. It's still not perfect, because "we acknowledge that this broke the game, we'll fix it in a later patch, but the game breaking aspect is going live" really isn't the sort of thing you want to see. But I'm glad they're responding to all the players' feedback, and hopeful that if the mods go back and tell them that players are pointing out that even if they're going to fix it later, it's still game breaking now, and needs some temporary fix to keep the game from hemorraghing players before all the parts that will make it not game breaking are introduced, they will acknowledge that yes, this is true.

Mods, I'm really curious what the devs thought of the idea that it's not even so much that the elf lady's body looks deformed, but the clothes she's wearing are so completely unsuited to her body type that they make her look deformed. Because the more I look at the lines of her body, the more they look okay, it's just the shading and the clothes that look awful on her.
 

DeletedUser1657

Guest
@Marindor Thank you for the feedback. The ease for which spells can be obtained devalues the Magic Academy significantly along with reduced relics to fuel it. My MA sits idle a lot of the time which isn't a great use for it, even Timon said to delete inactive buildings for space in the recent Q&A:p

Are there plans to add value back to the MA or make it so we can delete it? (personally I like MA but it is losing/lost its unique benefit)

Also the MA was extremely hard to use at the time it is received for new players when space is at a premium and relics are in very low supply. Combined with hard world map expansion and now increased catering costs for those towns (most effective way for tournaments in that era). This building/tech should be reviewed when it is available in the tech tree and potentially moved back an era when space and hopefully relics are in better supply. Or at a minimum move the quest for it back further as a 25 square building a player can't use at the time they get it is very painful for small towns.
 
CrazyWizard

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
@Muf-Muf
What about the completly failed AI, I like some response if you are finally gonna sack this disaster. right now every "repair" update made it worse and worse.

Great those improved squad sizes but what about those maps that make you always loose on autobattle (regardless of any AI) are you gonna fix those? we really do not have the time to "scout" every map if it wil autokill out troops, at least give us a map overvieuw. under the new system a total loss as catastrophic to our tournament experience.

@Dony
You might not have an issue with the improved squad sized because it seems you have to much time on your hand to manually battle every fight, 99.9% of the players do not have that option, they need the autobattle function to a certain extrend to get themselves the time they need. and a total loss with these massive troops are simply unrecoverable.
 
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