Discussion Release Notes version 1.113

[Jackluyt]

I really like the changes they implemented today - though it is the usual cocked-up way InnoGames go about making these changes - they should have given us the extra troop production capacity BEFORE they introduced the new Tournament structure.
Then there would have been a lot fewer complaints, whinges and moans!

 

[Steven Source]

Better Late Than Never.;333

 

[edeba]

I agree that they should have done the change before, but the difficulty increase is STILL way too steep. Over time in my game here I'm noticing that I'm not keeping up on troops to do provinces that I should be able to do with the changes, so this might fix that part of it, but it does nothing to fix the insane steepness of the difficulty increase each province.

They've done almost zero to address the biggest problem with the tournament change.

I think the spire troop sizes are in the range of 10 times bigger than the old tournament so just this thing they've done with increasing troop sizes for the new tournaments isn't even balanced by the increased troop production and we've got a massively unfair and unreasonable increase in difficulty for every extra province.

I really like the changes they implemented today - though it is the usual cocked-up way InnoGames go about making these changes - they should have given us the extra troop production capacity BEFORE they introduced the new Tournament structure.
Then there would have been a lot fewer complaints, whinges and moans!

 

[Arthus]

Basic mage units need to be reworked, humans have too much advantage now.

 

[Pauly7]

even with one queue I always had way too many Guard badges. This is my last concern atm.

Yeah the guard badges are a bit of a joke. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if they increased the requirement almost tenfold.

 

[CrazyWizard]

I hope they understand that the "value/impact" of wonders with this change got even further diminisched.
The impact unit producting wonders have, also the second last event evo building? and the ork strategist / vallorian something building got slashed by about a 3rd.

Your unit production is 3fold (for now for as long as they keep it that way) but those buildings still make the same amount.
This makes wonderlevels in the tournament formula even worse than it already was.

They did not adres the main issues we had with it, but instead make things even worse with changes that look good on the outside for some.

 

[spennyit]

and the ork strategist / vallorian something building got slashed by about a 3rd.

Can you explain your maths? I don't catch it myself :-(

 

[CrazyWizard]

Can you explain your maths? I don't catch it myself :-(

If you can make 10 units then the impact on your units of 5 extra units is 50%.
if you make 30 units the impact of 5 extra units is 16.6%

Only the "barracks" now produce up tp 3x as much units, but the other buildings did not get a similar bump and therefore there relative impact has been reduced significantly.

If you do not have these buildings, the fact that you miss them is not that big of a deal anymore, so they are no longer as usefull as they once were.

 

[Karvest]

the only note - most of these 3x units are useless, while units produced by that other buildings are usable (or you won't place that buildings anyway).

 

[spennyit]

If you can make 10 units then the impact on your units of 5 extra units is 50%.
if you make 30 units the impact of 5 extra units is 16.6%

Only the "barracks" now produce up tp 3x as much units, but the other buildings did not get a similar bump and therefore there relative impact has been reduced significantly.

If you do not have these buildings, the fact that you miss them is not that big of a deal anymore, so they are no longer as usefull as they once were.

Mmm ... I cannot completely agree We are discussing on Orc Strategists and Valorian Guards. Let's consider them:
- Orc Strategists: I have read many players saying that producing them is "impossible" because there are not enough orcs. So the relevace of the building is quite there untouched ;-)
- Valorian: I should say that I am not using these building anymore, but they are far from unuseful. They produce free troops and the mercenary camp is free to produce other troops. Maybe they are not relevant as before, but it just depends on how many you need and your training strategy.

BTW, let's look the other way around. Just suppose you need 300 squads to do your spire/tournament objectives and your production is 100 squads a week (BTW, these numbers are very similar to mine in my real world end of chapter 16 city). Once you had to produce 200 squads with brown bear and time instants. Now you don't need this extra production (unless it is needed to cope with the new tournament mode tht will impact my objectives in the next weeks :-().

OK, maybe you have troops that are "less useful", but is up to you to learn how to use them in a positive way so to cover your objectives without the need of extra productions (and use extraproduction to "improve" your objectives). I think that this "functionality" will help quite a lot of players (80% or 90% of the players base). Remember that only 100 players over about 3k active players go over 4,5k points in tournament (at least in my world).

End of the day: OS/VG buildings may be less relevant in your strategy, but their usefullness is still there and, if it is not enough relevant, you can easily free space for more relevant buildings

That said, I completely agree that the change in the tournament mode was made in a very ... way: devs do not play the game, don't know maths and do things without understanding the impacts of what they do, but the only way we have to change them is not paying their salary anymore

 

[DeletedUser3289]

If you can make 10 units then the impact on your units of 5 extra units is 50%.
if you make 30 units the impact of 5 extra units is 16.6%

Only the "barracks" now produce up tp 3x as much units, but the other buildings did not get a similar bump and therefore there relative impact has been reduced significantly.

If you do not have these buildings, the fact that you miss them is not that big of a deal anymore, so they are no longer as usefull as they once were.

So you are just comparing 500 to 550. And (say) 700 to 750 and saying former is better.
I just see both as 50 addition.
Can’t debate with the secondary effects on AWs. I like the mana from da etc.,

 

[CrazyWizard]

So you are just comparing 500 to 550. And (say) 700 to 750 and saying former is better.
I just see both as 50 addition.
Can’t debate with the secondary effects on AWs. I like the mana from da etc.,

Off course secondary effects have there place.
But not having them, doesn't affect your ability to play as much as before.
Therfore not possessing them doesn't hurt you as much as before.

Think about this position:
2 people get a $100 fine for speeding.
One person owns 500 dollars, so this fine really hurts him, he might think twice about speeding again.
The second person owns a million dollars, 100 dollars is peanuts and he doesn't care.

In both cases the fine is $100 but the outcome of that fine is totally different. for example I have a manager who is content with 5 fines a year. the pleasure he gets from speeding is "worth" the fines since he can easily afford them.

The first case is the old system, where these "free units" could make a pretty decent impact on the tournament results.
The second case is the new system, with giant SS, and with a huge unit production in your "barracks like" buildings. they are more like a droplet of water in a pond. a droplet of water is still a droplet, but on the grand scale of things the effect of a single droplet is insignificant.

 

[spennyit]

Off course secondary effects have there place.
But not having them, doesn't affect your ability to play as much as before.
Therfore not possessing them doesn't hurt you as much as before.

Think about this position:
2 people get a $100 fine for speeding.
One person owns 500 dollars, so this fine really hurts him, he might think twice about speeding again.
The second person owns a million dollars, 100 dollars is peanuts and he doesn't care.

In both cases the fine is $100 but the outcome of that fine is totally different. for example I have a manager who is content with 5 fines a year. the pleasure he gets from speeding is "worth" the fines since he can easily afford them.

The first case is the old system, where these "free units" could make a pretty decent impact on the tournament results.
The second case is the new system, with giant SS, and with a huge unit production in your "barracks like" buildings. they are more like a droplet of water in a pond. a droplet of water is still a droplet, but on the grand scale of things the effect of a single droplet is insignificant.

Exactly, but how many "managers" and how many "employees" are in Elvenar or you mean that 3 queues transform everyone in a manager?

 

[CrazyWizard]

Mmm ... I cannot completely agree We are discussing on Orc Strategists and Valorian Guards. Let's consider them:
- Orc Strategists: I have read many players saying that producing them is "impossible" because there are not enough orcs. So the relevace of the building is quite there untouched ;-)
- Valorian: I should say that I am not using these building anymore, but they are far from unuseful. They produce free troops and the mercenary camp is free to produce other troops. Maybe they are not relevant as before, but it just depends on how many you need and your training strategy.

BTW, let's look the other way around. Just suppose you need 300 squads to do your spire/tournament objectives and your production is 100 squads a week (BTW, these numbers are very similar to mine in my real world end of chapter 16 city). Once you had to produce 200 squads with brown bear and time instants. Now you don't need this extra production (unless it is needed to cope with the new tournament mode tht will impact my objectives in the next weeks :-().

OK, maybe you have troops that are "less useful", but is up to you to learn how to use them in a positive way so to cover your objectives without the need of extra productions (and use extraproduction to "improve" your objectives). I think that this "functionality" will help quite a lot of players (80% or 90% of the players base). Remember that only 100 players over about 3k active players go over 4,5k points in tournament (at least in my world).

End of the day: OS/VG buildings may be less relevant in your strategy, but their usefullness is still there and, if it is not enough relevant, you can easily free space for more relevant buildings

That said, I completely agree that the change in the tournament mode was made in a very ... way: devs do not play the game, don't know maths and do things without understanding the impacts of what they do, but the only way we have to change them is not paying their salary anymore

Ork strategist are a freak issue, that was created and still exists by actions from the devs, it's a great unit, the issue is mainly how do you get enough of them in the new format.

If I wanted to field them on my live account in province 30 I would need ~16 sqauads of them per spot. times 5 spots = 80 squads.
Since they are very hard / impossible to produce, and stategist buildings only grant a little you'll either need a shitload of those buildings or they become irrelevant by inflation itself.
It will be insanly hard to be able to train enough of them in the long run to stay relevant unless they finally remove the ork requirment from that production line.

As for not paying there salary, I already regretted my desision to spend some money a little before the beta announcement, and I do not consider spending any money on this game anymore. so the part of not spending money anymore they already achieved.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Exactly, but how many "managers" and how many "employees" are in Elvenar or you mean that 3 queues transform everyone in a manager?

Yes, the impact of not owning that unit producing wonder / building on the end results has greatly diminisched, so the "need" to have one as well.
Getting this "fine" of producing a few less units doesn't hurt as much anymore as it once did. it still has some impact, but it's a lot less now.

 

[spennyit]

If I wanted to field them on my live account in province 30 I would need ~16 sqauads of them per spot. times 5 spots = 80 squads.

I understand the problem with these numbers, but ... there are a few questions:
- the encounter was in province 30 at star #?
- how many Elvenar players are getting to that level?

I know that making unhappy "paying" players is not a "good" marketing strategy, but, on the other hand, if you want to put a tax (and I don't want to debate if this is an "intelligent" decision, "taxing" (making less fun) a game that should just be fun cannot be anyway "intelligent"), maybe it is "better" to tax a few managers than thousands of employees (as per your previous example, substitute fine with tax ).

About nerfing the brown bear(s) with 3 queues, maybe this is intentional and maybe it is more acceptable than other types of nerfing ;-)

 

[edeba]

As for not paying there salary, I already regretted my desision to spend some money a little before the beta announcement, and I do not consider spending any money on this game anymore. so the part of not spending money anymore they already achieved.

I'd rate Inno at a 10 for creating cognitive dissonance over spending money on the game. Never have a I seen a business so unclear on the concept that is generally considered a bad business practice.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/dissonance-marketing-25900.html... I think Inno is as opposite as you can get in terms of dealing with and preventing cognitive dissonance. They wear creating it like a badge of honor.

 

[spennyit]

I'd rate Inno at a 10 for creating cognitive dissonance over spending money on the game. Never have a I seen a business so unclear on the concept that is generally considered a bad business practice.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/dissonance-marketing-25900.html... I think Inno is as opposite as you can get in terms of dealing with and preventing cognitive dissonance. They wear creating it like a badge of honor.

They are almost perfect at creating marketing dissonance

 

[palmira]

I don't have MinMax formula but just playing around with the spreadsheet it is amazing to see how hard they are punishing the paying customers: the AW effect is close to negligible for freeloaders but it is huge for paying customers

 

[CrazyWizard]

I don't have MinMax formula but just playing around with the spreadsheet it is amazing to see how hard they are punishing the paying customers: the AW effect is close to negligible for freeloaders but it is huge for paying customers

I did not find the direct difference shocking about 20% for 33% extra space. this is most likely how they rationalise there decision making.
The question you should ask then is how is this "extra" space used.

If you are very limited on space, you have to make a hard decisions what to place in you city and what not.
This means limiting your use of wonders to only the best you can afford to save space.

A "paying" player with his magical houses and premium expansions has a lot more more, he/she can afford to pretty much build any wonder they like.
They do not have to make this tough decision what to place and what not, it's the combination of more space and therefore more wonders that hurt them the hardest.
It's also what makes "freebees" come out on to good side, as they learned to be lean, and that favors them atm by a lot.

I tried to crunch the numbers again, but it's just plain scary, up to 100+ troops on losses in 1 province, where others might lose 10-20.
The math just doesnt work.

On En thay claimed this was to avoid pushing, but they ignore there are other ways than pushing to level up your wonders.
And even then, I could bring back old CM posts on the forums, it was about how "punishing" push players might hurt there revenue as often these players were considered whales as well. this is why it took like what 2 years? to decide to do something agains pushing, and even then it's treated with white gloves to avoid loosing whales.

This entire update does not make sense taking that into consideration.