How difficult is it to full-clear the spire at the end of the tech tree?

[DeepTerminal]

I've been reading a lot of discussions on here, and people are saying that past Ch. 15, there's no significant military upgrades and tourney & spire get harder.

I'm currently a few techs away from finishing ch.15 (in my main live city), and I'm seriously considering if I should stop at the start of ch.16 and focus on farming spire and tourney.

For me, part of the appeal of the game is growing the city and expanding the grid, despite knowing that expansions will make tourney & spire more difficult. Is there any advantage to reaching the end of the tech tree? How difficult is it to full-clear the spire at that point? I know it's more difficult than at ch.15, but if you have fully upgraded barracks, training grounds, and merc camp, is it easily doable?

Thanks.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I am in chapter 17 and can normally auto-fight to the top of the Spire. And I do not put out a ton of temp military buildings each week. Usually just one DA or two UUU and maybe one each of the mage and light ranged ones. Plus a max Fire Phoenix. And none of the military AWs are higher than level 11. I cannot remember the last time I was forced to cater instead of fight an encounter.

 

[edeba]

I found it highly regressive... I'd just stop where you are and work on AWs, upgrading buildings and waiting to see what comes in chapters 18-20. Also, save resources for upgrading as it might turn out better later and in that case you'd want to go as fast as possible through the stinky chapters. From what I've heard in advance for chapter 18, it doesn't seem worth it.

 

[SoggyShorts]

How difficult is it to full-clear the spire at that point? I know it's more difficult than at ch.15, but if you have fully upgraded barracks, training grounds, and merc camp, is it easily doable?

By using the upgrades given you should only see a 10-20% drop in tournament ability after clearing the spire.
Unless, of course, you are a high achiever (like 5-10k+) then it's worse.

 

[DeepTerminal]

By using the upgrades given you should only see a 10-20% drop in tournament ability after clearing the spire.
Unless, of course, you are a high achiever (like 5-10k+) then it's worse.

Thanks for the reply. I don't have a fire chicken, and I usually do 1800 tourney points. I don't have a training grounds or merc camp, and I find spire fights very difficult with the normal troops. I do have a level 10 Brown Bear giving me Orc Warriors, Orc Strategists, Vallorian Guards, and Frogs. They make high-level fights a lot easier, but I still lose a lot of troops. I put out a DA or 2 UUUs every week. At this point, should I build a training grounds or merc camp? Are the specialized troops the key to full-clearing the spire with fighting? Thanks!

 

[SoggyShorts]

At this point, should I build a training grounds or merc camp?

Wait... you don't already have these? Did you know that they changed it so that you can train troops in all 3 buildings simultaneously?
So yes, you should build and max out all 3 troops buildings so that you make 3x as many troops per day.

Are the specialized troops the key to full-clearing the spire with fighting?

The Frog is situationally great, and if you're an elf the Blossom mage is a must. The training grounds is mostly used for Dryads and Dogs.

 

[edeba]

Thanks for the reply. I don't have a fire chicken, and I usually do 1800 tourney points. I don't have a training grounds or merc camp, and I find spire fights very difficult with the normal troops. I do have a level 10 Brown Bear giving me Orc Warriors, Orc Strategists, Vallorian Guards, and Frogs. They make high-level fights a lot easier, but I still lose a lot of troops. I put out a DA or 2 UUUs every week. At this point, should I build a training grounds or merc camp? Are the specialized troops the key to full-clearing the spire with fighting? Thanks!

I think the merc camp troops are stronger then the barrack, so I'd definitely build it. I find some line-ups for the spire are just a total slaughter so I negotiate. It does depend on what boosts I have out.

 

[iDavis]

Plot twist: My live city with finished chapter 17 and a lot of high-level ancient wonders has no problem with completing the spire at all, I would rather say it´s much more easier than in my ~middle-research beta city with poor ancient wonders. No numbers, just my own experiences from many weeks / months.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

Plot twist: My live city with finished chapter 17 and a lot of high-level ancient wonders has no problem with completing the spire at all, I would rather say it´s much more easier than in my ~middle-research beta city with poor ancient wonders. No numbers, just my own experiences from many weeks / months.

plot twist, if you would stop on your middle research beta city and only develop your AW there, you would be easier off as well =)

 

[CrazyWizard]

I've been reading a lot of discussions on here, and people are saying that past Ch. 15, there's no significant military upgrades and tourney & spire get harder.

I'm currently a few techs away from finishing ch.15 (in my main live city), and I'm seriously considering if I should stop at the start of ch.16 and focus on farming spire and tourney.

For me, part of the appeal of the game is growing the city and expanding the grid, despite knowing that expansions will make tourney & spire more difficult. Is there any advantage to reaching the end of the tech tree? How difficult is it to full-clear the spire at that point? I know it's more difficult than at ch.15, but if you have fully upgraded barracks, training grounds, and merc camp, is it easily doable?

Thanks.

It does not get easier nor more difficult, and as always it depends.
the "difficulty" stays the same in the spire battles do not change by itself. it stay for example 100% vs 140%. what does change is how many units 100% is, so the battle itself stays the same but the amount of units required increases.

If you negotiate it does become more difficult as you require more goods to negotiate the same.
"improving" goods production is a lot more difficult, and there is no natural overproduction of it, unlike the units.

When tournament results are also important for you lets say 5000 points or more, as much as you can, this is the point where the additional development becomes detrimental for your results.
but if lets say 2000 points is all you need/want then the production of your units is much bigger than the amount you use. this means that the overcapacity of your unit production can easily absorb the extra units you require because of advancements.

In this case technically the advancements are still detrimental, but because of how you play you are not influenced by it in your personal gameplay.

If you are that player who wants to get the max out of everything, then you will see the detrimental effects with every "improvement".

 

[Arthus]

Depends.
I'm in chapter 17 on live and we never made less than gold badge in spire.
In chapter 17 you probably have tons of catalysts for non-stop crafting in academy, so you have plenty of buildings for your military units, and millions of goods/sentient goods.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Plot twist: My live city with finished chapter 17 and a lot of high-level ancient wonders has no problem with completing the spire at all, I would rather say it´s much more easier than in my ~middle-research beta city with poor ancient wonders. No numbers, just my own experiences from many weeks / months.

No plot twist at all, there's a difference between difficulty and cost.
In a city with high-level wonders, fights are all easier, but also more expensive making it difficult to do more in the tournament
E.G.
Advanced city:
Your 10,000 troops vs the enemy's 14,000 troops but you get +40% health and +40% damage from your wonders
=Easy but Expensive
vs
Mid chapter city:
Your 1,000 troops vs the enemy's 1,400 troops but you have no wonders
=Hard but Cheap

Mid chapter city, but with advanced wonders:
Your 1,600 troops vs the enemy's 2,240 troops and you get +40% health and +40% damage from your wonders
=Easy & Cheap

This is why so many of us are saying we stopped doing research techs.
The old wisdom was to skip optional Squad Size techs because they made the tournament more expensive (NOT difficult).
The new wisdom is to skip ALL techs because they ALL make the tournament more expensive.

 

[Deleted User - 81190]

Mid chapter city, but with advanced wonders:
Your 1,000 troops vs the enemy's 1,400 troops and you get +40% health and +40% damage from your wonders
=Easy & Cheap

Um, how would you get mid chapter city with advanced wonders and no wonders have the same squad sizes?

 

[SoggyShorts]

Um, how would you get mid chapter city with advanced wonders and no wonders have the same squad sizes?

Right, was going for round numbers. I'll edit though to keep it more apples to apples.

 

[Karvest]

Still not apples to apples. all +40% = 6x30 AW lvls = ~x1.6 troops.
And even then it will still be not apples to apples, since the key is not SS itself, but how fast you can regain it.

 

[edeba]

No plot twist at all, there's a difference between difficulty and cost.
In a city with high-level wonders, fights are all easier, but also more expensive making it difficult to do more in the tournament
E.G.
Advanced city:
Your 10,000 troops vs the enemy's 14,000 troops but you get +40% health and +40% damage from your wonders
=Easy but Expensive
vs
Mid chapter city:
Your 1,000 troops vs the enemy's 1,400 troops but you have no wonders
=Hard but Cheap

Mid chapter city, but with advanced wonders:
Your 1,100 troops vs the enemy's 1,540 troops and you get +40% health and +40% damage from your wonders
=Easy & Cheap

This is why so many of us are saying we stopped doing research techs.
The old wisdom was to skip optional Squad Size techs because they made the tournament more expensive (NOT difficult).
The new wisdom is to skip ALL techs because they ALL make the tournament more expensive.

And delete AWs, just all kinds of regression built into the game... And don't buy game expansion and don't place all that you can.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

And delete AWs, just all kinds of regression built into the game... And don't buy game expansion and don't place all that you can.

None of which makes the fights actually harder, rather just make you use more troops. So you either have to make more troops than before or do less provinces/stars. The whole "your squad size versus the enemy squad size" and how that has no limit is another issue entirely and is something everyone has to deal with, whether you have a starting squad size of 10 or 10,000.

In my Live city, with time boosters and supply instants and my level 10 Brown Bear, I can make all the troops I need, but when I hit that wall of squad size difference, and I don't have enough military boost going, it does not matter if I have 1000 squads of each 15 troop type, I will not win any more battles.

 

[salandrine]

....At this point, should I build a training grounds or merc camp? Are the specialized troops the key to full-clearing the spire with fighting? Thanks!

Yes, especially the Ranger ist great. And in some kinds the frogs are also.

But be aware to have enough supplies to fill up all three kinds of "barraks". You'll need a lot more of supplies.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Still not apples to apples. all +40% = 6x30 AW lvls = ~x1.6 troops.
And even then it will still be not apples to apples, since the key is not SS itself, but how fast you can regain it.

But you understood the concept, right?

 

[Karvest]

Amount of troops you can train and your tourney squad size matters when you have enough of expiring buildings to fight x2 bigger enemy squads. And it can make a very significant difference. My wife in the middle of ch17 on live have almost x2 bigger squads in tourney than me here in ch15, while having the same AW military boosts and almost the same speed of training (well, a bit faster, since she has Victory Springs and higher level of Training Grounds, but those additional dryads don't make a big difference in tourney). She has more expansions and AW levels too of course, but anyway it's a huge difference in costs with almost the same production.