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Ancient wonders level up with the new requirements

Iceberry*

Member
When upgrading ancient wonders, smaller chapters often only required relics. Now you have to deposit five-digit magic fragments.
I wonder where they should all be taught from.
In general, I have the impression that the focus of all the changes is on big players with high chapters, but the so-called end gamers have hundreds of magic fragments, royal restorations, blueprints, combination triggers in their warehouse and are happy.
I'm busy setting up the guests in chapter messages. I need blueprints for the magical buildings, royal restorations for the event buildings, magic fragments are urgently needed in the academy and are always in short supply.
I have to recycle most of the event buildings to get magic fragments for the academy.

In conclusion, this means that it is made even easier for the end gamers and the others can hardly level up their ancient wonders, whose performance has usually deteriorated.
Previously you only had higher requirements every 5 levels and relics in between. Now lots of spell fragments in every level.

Will more and better revenue streams be created for spell fragments? The moonstone library doesn't provide any more magic fragments with higher levels, otherwise there is only the tower, which smaller players in particular can't get that far up.
 
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When upgrading ancient wonders, smaller chapters often only required relics. Now you have to deposit five-digit magic fragments.
I wonder where they should all be taught from.
In general, I have the impression that the focus of all the changes is on big players with high chapters, but the so-called end gamers have hundreds of magic fragments, royal restorations, blueprints, combination triggers in their warehouse and are happy.
I'm busy setting up the guests in chapter messages. I need blueprints for the magical buildings, royal restorations for the event buildings, magic fragments are urgently needed in the academy and are always in short supply.
I have to recycle most of the event buildings to get magic fragments for the academy.

In conclusion, this means that it is made even easier for the end gamers and the others can hardly level up their ancient wonders, whose performance has usually deteriorated.
Previously you only had higher requirements every 5 levels and relics in between. Now lots of spell fragments in every level.

Will more and better revenue streams be created for spell fragments? The moonstone library doesn't provide any more magic fragments with higher levels, otherwise there is only the tower, which smaller players in particular can't get that far up.
I completely agree with you. These changes are incredibly unfair to newer cities. Even my live city (an endgame city) cannot easily acquire the resources needed to upgrade an AW with the new costs and still keep crafting necessary items in the MA. How is a smaller city supposed to complete enough spire and Tournament to gain the resources level up any AWs, when they can’t build the AWs they need or craft the boosts or pet food they need in the MA to be successful in the Spire and Tournament? They’ve created an impossible circular problem for newer cities - they must at least return the earlier levels of each AW to the old costs to even give smaller cities a chance.
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
In conclusion, this means that it is made even easier for the end gamers and the others can hardly level up their ancient wonders, whose performance has usually deteriorated.
Previously you only had higher requirements every 5 levels and relics in between. Now lots of spell fragments in every level.

Will more and better revenue streams be created for spell fragments? The moonstone library doesn't provide any more magic fragments with higher levels, otherwise there is only the tower, which smaller players in particular can't get that far up.

I have to disagree. On Beta I'm just a small fish, a mid-game player, with 1 extra small testcity. For both of those all your arguments are true of course; there just is no way to get enough spellfrags and CCs to be able to build and up any AWs anymore, even if I completely stopped crafting, which will mean a lot less tourney activity and so even less resources. And both of those will be folded if this is not undone.

But my main city on Elcysandir I'm one of those bigtime end-game players. I ended Chap 21 with over 1.000.000 spellfrags in stock, then started working on the 2 chap 21 AWs which required CC-spells and spellfrags and RRs.

Both of them are now about mid-level, at 17 and 18. And my stock of spellfrags has declined to 320.000, so it went down about 700.000! My stock of about 1.200 CC spells went down to about 600, even with Tinlug and a pretty high lvl Dragon Ark.
Of course, I have not stopped crafting in this time. As an end-game player there is not much else to do. But that is just 2 AWs!

And that is for an end-game player who can basically pour all effort and resources available into some new AWs. That is NOT a sustainable strategy, even for me.
For any player who still struggles to craft enough to get that edge in a tourney, who has no huge stocks of resources this is an absolute horror.
But even in my FS, where we have multiple players who are end-game players, several have seen what it does to wreck their game on beta and have stated they will quit.

It takes years of dedicated play, a lot of effort and resources to get to be an end-game player. One builds AWs based on choice, how they will affect your city, which ones best suit your style of play. To have ALL of then overhauled and some effects drastically reduced has huge consequences, some of which cannot be easily countered.
And why would one even try to counter this blast by Inno? Because if one spends a lot of effort and time again, Inno will no doubt come up with yet another way to sink your results.

No, even for those players, who have spent countless hours and often thousands of dollars over the years, it still has to be fun. A bit of a challenge is fine. Having the foundation ripped out from under you is not.
So a lot of players will likely just walk away, take their loss.
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
I just thought of / noticed something else. What I USED to do in order to get extra runes for an AW I need to fill the ring for was to fill the ring for one I don't want to place in order to break some shards. When that ring was full, I would build it, then sell it which would give me an opportunity to break some more runes.
Now in order to do so I have to pay CC-spells and Spell frags and RRs?
Hello? Anybody home at the office there? Did you forget there basically is no other mechanism that is as reliable to forge runes? (Despite having had many people bring in suggestions about it, myself included). So now you are destroying that mechanism too? great job!
 
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Iceberry*

Member
To make matters worse, the magic fragments are now needed at all levels - in the past, at least in my rank, you could largely level up with relics, maybe also coins, supplies, mana, seeds. More was only required every 5 levels.

The spell fragments are a killer to any progress in the game.
I'm constantly missing them for the academy anyway, how the hell am I supposed to level up Ancient Wonders like that?

Now that Inno has already noticed that the culture thing wasn't working, the next problem needs to be fixed or there will be more players running away than new ones coming in.

The previous speaker agrees with me that end gamers have a lot of this stuff. Perhaps another use was sought for it, because in Chapter 21 you may have no use for a lot of things and they accumulate.
But guys, really: why make these changes only for advanced levels 31 to 35? That's where you meet the big players who have at least a cushion for a while. And then think about the requirements there again, it had to be halved because you obviously have neither an overview nor enough knowledge of the game or material assets. This is all so unrealistic.
The players should test whether it works: NO, it doesn't work.
For everyone else there is no more progress anyway.
Suggestion: go back everything and make changes only for levels 31 to 35 and please do so in proportions so that you can still use the other game functions.
 

TimeMachine

Well-Known Member
I am at the Halflings on beta now. At the moment I am testing how long it takes for me to not be able to upgrade any wonder in all of my cities.

In my first city on Live, I have run out of KPs at the moment.

In my Beta-City it looks like them spell fragments would be the first to run out. I could see them shrink enormous the last days!

1707184238237.png


I guess there are lots of humans and elves who will have a similiar relationship between CCs and spell fragments, maybe that's why @InnoGames gave us a new recipe for the Magic Academy.

1707184260312.png


I was told today that this new recipe is too expensive at least in comparison to older recipes.
One can get 8x CCs for 5000 spell fragments but has to use 12x CCs to get 5000 spell fragments. ;)
Maybe this is just to balance between CCs and spell fragments? :)

I always thought that it was, is and will be part of the game itself that @InnoGames tries to "help" humans and elves getting broke at least of one of them rescources in order to invite humans and elves to buy diamonds or finding an a walkaround in any way.

In principle this is ok for me but with all that chapter-migration and acelleration ingame, for example the costs for building streets just to mention one of them undocumented changes that accelerate players through the chapters, and them new changes to the costs of wonder-upgrading to me it seems like a planned quandary that humans and elves who are steadily upgrading their Ancient Wonders will run into.

I don't want to judge this changes to early, because generally I guess they are making Elvenar more interesting somehow.
I could imagine that maybe some more "balancing" will be needed in the future to not frustrate players to hard.

At the moment it is just a guess. ;)

I will continue to try upgrading my wonders as I did before the changes. When I will run out of anything, I will get back to you in this thread.

In the meantime I keep on selling/disentchanting nearly everything I wanted to save up and use Royal Restoration on it if I would have had (more than) enough one day - this dream of mine died with the latest changes to the game. :(
 
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TimeMachine

Well-Known Member
Don't panic i still haven't run out of anything that's needed to upgrade my wonders. ;)

I just wanted to make the community pay attention to this crafting offer:

1707533287634.png

Maybe useful for those who are in acute need of Vision Vapor but for those who want to save their spell fragments to upgrade their wonders I wouldn't recommend to use this offer. Be careful what you're clicking ;)

In principle and in view of the new requierements to level up wonders, it reminds me a little of those two crafting offers I was wishing to get an confirmation for.

1707533655479.png
1707533670938.png


Meanwhile they added a confirmation for disentchanting Portal Profits and some other stuff.
What about my wish for confirmation? :) Because of my inatention I 've already wasted one bear artifact for 3x pet food.
Ok, I am paying more attention to crafting now but I think it would still be nice to be asked if one wants to spend RR or artifacts in crafting. :)
 
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TimeMachine

Well-Known Member
Just upgraded my Watchtower Ruins, next one to be upgraded should be the Dragon Abbey.

That's why I took a look at the upgrade costs:

1708226193641.png

Oh no all the fragments are gone!

After disentchanting some old summonings:

1708226358963.png

To me it seems pretty clear that I will not be able to generate those amounts by disentchanting forever plus younger cities ain't got that much in inventory.

A new fellow of mine on live is trying to save up 5000 spell fragments for next wonder upgrade without access to spire (not researched yet)
and without a moonstone library. Only Endless Scroll delivers 30 spell fragments per day.

I can hardly believe that all this should really stay like this?
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
So, it has been a while and I have been waiting until I had some time to evaluate this new system. And unsurprisingly, it turned out pretty much as I expected; it sucks. I will compare between some different servers, where I have different cities.

Main city: end-game player, that has been sitting at the end of chap 21 for a while now. A typical whale, top15 of the world player, lots of premium expansions, with pretty huge stocks of everything, whether goods, spells, summonings, sorcereries etc etc. Brought out 3 additional Moonstone lib sets, having 4 up now (and another 4 still in my inventory). Gold Spire every week, 16+ chests in the tourney every week and crafting 24/7.
Most of my AWs (and I have most of them up, 36 AWs total, 18 of them now at lvl 35) were about lvl 30, as there was no reason for me to upgrade them beyond that, as there was only 1 of the effects that would increase and picked up on upgrading them to 35 now.
My stock of CC-spells has dropped from about 1.300 to about 250, despite Tinlug providing 37-40 CCs every week, and cooking them in the MA and having the Dragon Ark providing 14 CCs for every chest I collect from the MA. My stock of spellfrags dropped from 1.1 MILLION to 120.000, despite disenchanting quite some spells and instants and event-buildings I didn't need for an additional 200.000 frags or so.
That means that at this point, spellfrags are going to be a bit of an issue if I want to bring the rest up to 35.
So for my main city, this is a hardship, but it still is do-able. Perhaps not as fast as I would like, but that is ok, it is a bit of a challenge, though there just are not enough sources for spellfrags to keep this up. But my stock of spells and PP-instants can still be used to create more spellfrags, it's just that I don't like to bring those stocks down, which is more psychologically than anything else as there is no reason to keep having such huge stocks with 1.500+ spells of each type and huge masses of instants I almost never use. Not to mention that I can always rebuild these later and will be getting more from events.
However, it also means that my whale-city is not really slowed down that much, which was the whole reason given for this change, so in that aspect this change is an abysmal failure.

Good sized city in chap 17. Quite a bit smaller than my main city, not as many AWs (18 up, ranging between lvl 13-29). This city has 2 Moonsone Lib sets up and does ok in the Spire, though we don't make gold every week, but do every other week, we do about 11-12 tourneychests every week.
This city has come to a halt in upgrading AWs. 3 are now ready to be upgraded, but I don't have enough frags to do so, with one more being at the lvl of needing to fill the ring and I'm waiting for more runes. My stock is now about 21.000 frags, but the AWs that are ready to be upped are all at a lvl that need more than that. And I still would like to craft, so my stock has to be carefully balanced. Though the city is good on goods and mana, the spellfrags and CC's are an issue.
So for this advanced city it will mean greatly slowing down upping AWs, which was the point.

Small city; chap 7. Not much money invested, but still got 4 premium expansions. 4 AWs up, lvl 4-12. Short on spellfrags. I might be able to up 1, maybe 2 lvls, but that will about it for a long time as I don't have any Moonstone sets here and am not able to climb much in the Spire. Maybe halfway up the 2nd floor. Don't make it to 10 chests every week either. Even though I do have Tinlug it's only to stage 9, but getting enough petfood through crafting is not easy and a drain on the spellfrags. It will take a lot of time to build up enough frags to upgrade anything and I really will have to chose between crafting and upgrading.
For this smaller city, it will mean (almost) no upping AWs at all, due to lack of frags and CCs and the need to craft to get an edge in the tourney. That is not 'slowing down', that is 'stopping'. These are not the same! Abysmal failure here.

Real small city, just finished chap 4, with 2 premium expansions. Hard time doing a lot of tourney. No Spire available at all yet. So the 2 AWs I have up can't be upgraded at all. There just is no way to get spellfrags and at this low level I even have an issue creating CC spells.
For this small city it means that even though I have more AWs unlocked, I can't build or upgrade any. Abysmal failure here.

So recapping; it's a disaster for small/new cities.
AWs give a needed edge in the game, especially the GA which is a huge spacesaving AW, but only IF YOU CAN GET IT ABOVE lvl 6 or so, which for smaller cities is already going to be all but impossible.
But for the large end-game players with a lot of AWs already at high levels it is more an annoyance than a way to stop them.

Then some more problems
Additionally, there is the problem -again, especially for smaller players- that building an unwanted AW just so you can sell it off in order to fill the ring again and break runes into broken shards is going to be a huge drain on the already limited frags, CC's and RR spells. Needing 1.000 frags, 1 CC AND 5 RRs to build it, then only getting back 2 CCs and 1 RR when you sell it (no frags at all) means that mechanism is very much crapped for smaller cities, making it even harder to get the runes for the ones you do want to build or up at the rune level.

Second additional problem is the KPs. The AWs were initially introduced because so many players couldn't do anything with their KPs when they got techlocked.
That same problem is returning now, but in a worse way. Making it so hard to upgrade AWs means there are a lot of AWs waiting to be upped. When all the AWs you have up are waiting to be upped (and yes, there are quite a few players with only a few AWs and now not being able to up them) there is nothing one can do with the KPs at the moment you are techlocked. You can't swap KPs if you can't receive any. So the only thing to do is start finding other players and just start donating extra, in order to get runes and KP instants. However, when you are doing that without being able to receive anything you are taking away room from that other player, which can lead to that player getting KP-locked because they received way more than they donated. Before all the yelling starts; yes, I know it will take a good amount of KPs. However, just looking on my map (granted, I have a pretty large map) I can already see a good number of players who are KP locked. I don't have that problem myself, but I could easily drop a couple of thousand KPs all over the map and KP lock a bunch of players that way, especially smaller ones.
(Edit) Just had a player who is quitting dump 980 KPs into one of my AWs. Which is the 2nd time in 2 weeks something like that happened. Not a big deal to me as I have more than enough room, but still a good example of how that might be a problem for some players.

Suggestion
This new system should have been made for later levels of AWs only. Say lvl 31-35, or even lvl 26-35. And in that case, the cost could be made steeper. That would be slowing down larger players and players with high lvl AWs, but not the smaller/newer cities.
Right now, to bring any AW from lvl 1 to lvl 11 costs 66.000 frags and 66 CCs and 30 RRs. Already almost undoable for small cities, and lvl 11 isn't even that far.
To bring any single AW from lvl 1 to lvl 35 costs 630.000 frags and 630 CCs and 140 RRs. That is going to be almost impossible even for goodsized cities.
This change (NOT an improvement as claimed by Inno) will mostly hamper any new player, as well as anyone starting a new city. However, it will only slightly slow down the really large end-game players. Even less so since they already have a lot of AWs up at medium to high levels, so they don't have to deal with the cost in frags to get them there.
If the same cost needed to up 1 AW would be limited to the lvls 31-35 it would mean huge amounts per lvl (126.000 frags and 126 CCs and 28 RRs per level (on average, so could be changed a bit to make it a rising cost). That's a very steep price, so it would slow down even large players, but would not stop anyone else to getting their AWs to a decent level.
Or it could be spread out over lvls 26-35, in which case the cost would be halved (and would give a better opportunity to make it a rising scale of cost) and yet still offer all players to at least build and up their AWs to a decent level.
 
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