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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
Overall, as many said, I think the change for the tourney is great for casual players, who are by far the most players in elvenar (and those who don't write on forums)
I agree with most of what you say, but on this point I think there are elements of it that are not so great for casual players, but they aren't necessarily noticing. AW levels and expansions may still be hurting them and many of them may come to realise that they're being hurt more and more with each unnecessary AW level. For a long time these casual players will still be obliviously levelling up their Thrones of the High Men and Blooming Trader Guilds without realising that there is no real positive from doing so.

The expansions are already being addressed to some degree at least and hopefully the AWs will follow so I still hope we end up with an improved version.
 

Deleted User - 84934

Guest
Agree with the fact that they hurt themselves without knowing it, which is bad. I guess I could add that in my remark on communication, the wiki should be updated to cover those facts.
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
  • The amazingly useless Banshee, a glorified sorceress that each elf player know sucks balls there is a reason we start using 1* blossom mages and completly switch over to blossom when they read 2*, the only sorceress we use are the free ones from the wonder. but elvengems thinks banshee is better then the blossom mage *facepalms*
  • The superb dryad who elvengems thinks is better than the elven archer. *facepalms* the dryad is the worst of the 3 archer options, wrong power, wrong favorite enemy.
I disagree on both accounts. Banshees are +90%/-80% vs heavy range, with -40%/-50% debuffs. Lower attack range, but twice the movement range of Blossom Princesses. More health, too. Against HR? Yes please.

Dryads are similarly +90%/-80% vs heavy melee. Against HM+LR combos like in the current tournament? Yes please.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
*playing devils advocate*
Elfs have this advantage right now untill they reach the elevenar chapter, untill that point any battle that requires heavy ranged they are screwed as they can't make orc strategist effectively and mortar / 1/2 star frogs just suck. only the 3*frog prince is superb and makes them up to par.
Elves get blossom mages much earlier and are earlier "good".
Only once the unlock the frog prince do they get a small advantage / drawback (depending on strategy) by having a better spread of units but do require all boost wonders, while the elves could technically get away with 1-2 wonders instead.
*devils advocate out*
Mortars don't suck that much if you have leveled toads and phoenix. Elves get blossom princess only one chapter before frog prince, and don't have usable mages before that moment at all.
btw, humans can get enough orc strategists from MA, but elves can't get mages...
 
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Marindor

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone,

Thanks again for your feedback so far! Just to emphasize, not to raise the wrong expectations: The points I mentioned are the things we are currently focussing on in terms of looking into them. Nothing is set in stone yet and everything is still subject to change. It's just an update on the points we're considering, so we can already hear your feedback about it. I've added an extra clarification in my previous post as well.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I disagree on both accounts. Banshees are +90%/-80% vs heavy range, with -40%/-50% debuffs. Lower attack range, but twice the movement range of Blossom Princesses. More health, too. Against HR? Yes please.

Dryads are similarly +90%/-80% vs heavy melee. Against HM+LR combos like in the current tournament? Yes please.

Unless you can oneshot those HM units that banshee fails for exactly the same reason as the sorceres fails.
In laymans term you hit those units once, and then they strike back, because of your limited range

While those blossom mages / priests simply cannot be hit and have 2 or more turns to destroy the enemy without repercussions, this is the difference between heavy losses and no losses at all.

And that dryad is useless for another reason, it's power is -damage from the enemy, both the archer and the ranger have -defence.
In laymans turn after the second hit they hit a lot harder than than the dryad ever will.

The main danger for your archers are enemy mages, who can hide behind other units and hit you from a distance, so if there is an enemy unit you want to knock it down instantly. and heavy melee + mages is a common combination.
You can easily knock down those heavy melee units with any ranged unit, but those pesky mages you prefer to oneshot them, this is where those rangers come in with an amazing damage bonus and extra move space to walk around that terrain that prevent you from oneshotting them.

And if you are up against pure heavy melee, then the priest / blossom mages will be much more powerfull as no heay melee unit can evet get within striking distance.

For the past several years (untill the bears+ spire combo) the tournaments was a recource management game where the main goal was to reduce losses as much as possible so you could go ahead as far as possible.
Both banshee and dryad fail in that regard.

I would day try and test it out, the person who can prove that in a mage oriented tournaments the bashees on average will have less losses than priest / blossom gets a pint of beer from me.

Mortars don't suck that much if you have leveled toads and phoenix. Elves get blossom princess only one chapter before frog prince, and don't have usable mages before that moment at all.
3* sorceres and 1x blossom are somewhat comparable in some situation the blossom is better in the other the sorceres, both arent great indeed.
Blossom mage is unlocked in the fairoes chapter and gets it's 2* promotion at wizards and dragons. temple of toads ain't unlocked untill the end of halflings. same with the 1* toads, and a 1 star toad is worse than a 2/3* mortar, its gets 2* and therefore similarity at the amuni, and only surpasses the mortar at the elvenar chapter.

I have played humans several times now, and even with the fire phoenix it's a horrible struggle even to play lets say 15 provinces, you get so many autolosses with mortars it ain't even funny anymore, quite often during heavy range tournaments in the early and mid game you start using "other type" units, just because they give better results.
The only difference between the mortar and the frog prince is the special power, but that makes all the difference between near useless unit and an awesome unit.
and if I have to pit the sorceres vs the mortar the sorceres compared to the mortar is a godly unit for quite a while. sorceres is bad, but by far not as bad as the mortar. (except 1* sorceres she seems to be worse/up to par with the mortar)

Once you have unlocked frog prince you might be able to mix / match mortar and frog prince as once a unit has incurred the penaly from the frog prince the mortar should be fine to finish the job. but I never tested this. nor have I checked the initiative value to see if it could work.

I never made it that far with a human city to test that out. I never got beyond the elemental chapter with a human city.

edit: one huge advantages the sorceres has over the mortar is that it can take advantage of mage buff buildings. this makes it more viable at most levels than the mortar who only has the fire phoenix.
 
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Karvest

Well-Known Member
I have played humans several times now, and even with the fire phoenix it's a horrible struggle even to play lets say 15 provinces, you get so many autolosses with mortars it ain't even funny anymore, quite often during heavy range tournaments in the early and mid game you start using "other type" units, just because they give better results.
Same with elves and mages. I haven't use any mages until chapter 14...
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
Maybe the devs are also victems of the elvengems virus, the worst tournament / combat adviser on this planet.
In-game info (swords) is even worse... It says that dust tournaments could (before the changes) be easily fought by LM, as the counter unit is only 3 swords against it. While in steel tournaments that theoretically favor LR, we face Thieves which have 4 swords against us. Is there any other guide that says steel is harder than dust ?
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
Hi guys,

Let's keep it constructive, please. As you already know: we are working on several things. When we have new information to share, we will. As long as you don't hear any updates, there's just no new information to share yet. Getting sarcastic or deciding to quit over a feature that isn't even ready yet for Live implementation doesn't really help anybody. So please for now just keep the discussion productive and when we have new things to share, we will do so. Thank you.

Players don't leave just because you want to destroy tournaments. For us, the main reason for the departure is the number of changes in the last year, which clearly goes against strategically playing players. So, in my case, just an attempt to destroy the tournaments, which we see here on 50 pages, was enough to decide. Some may forgive you if you change it for the better, I don't. I've had enough of the "let's try what they survive" strategy.
 

PrimroseSylvia

Well-Known Member
[...]Valorians - Train them
Frog Prince - Train them (love them in old Elixir tourneys)

But we need to keep in mind that 2 stars Vallorian is unlocked on Elemental chapter, and 2 stars Frog on Amuni chapter; before these techs only Barrack Units worth the train.
I mean, there are not only tech-end players who can use all the max level units.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
That's why this change is even worse. At any level there is a set of units that works better than others, and most of the time you don't need units from all 3 military buildings. I had only barracks until latest chapters because it was just a waste of space and KP to build and speedup others. Then I switched to MC and don't use barracks anymore. Not because it doesn't have separate queue, but because I'm not going to use units trained there.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
That's why this change is even worse. At any level there is a set of units that works better than others, and most of the time you don't need units from all 3 military buildings. I had only barracks until latest chapters because it was just a waste of space and KP to build and speedup others. Then I switched to MC and don't use barracks anymore. Not because it doesn't have separate queue, but because I'm not going to use units trained there.

I totally agree with that.

I've followed this thread since the begining and I'm amazed at one thing. For like 20 pages, lots of people kept saying the new change would be good if we had 3 queues. Now Marindor says we'll have that, and EVERYBODY is bitching about it. This doesn't make any sense at all. I don't have the time to go back all those pages to take quotes, but I think it would be easy for anybody to see it.
Also, Marindor said theya re still working on the balance of the tourney and that it will take a lot more time to get something they are happy about it. So let's give them some time. I don't play beta itself, so I can understand why it would be frustrating for people to have to wait a few weeks to have changes, but that the pb of beta being a "normal" playing server instead of a "copy your live city to test stuff". You agreed to that, so let's wait a bit before butchering cities.
Please show me the many? and also show me that not several players jumped on the subject to debunk that immedeatly?

It's a common thing that keeps returning from especiialy "new" players to the game who find it strange that you cannot train at all 3 at the same time.
Some "casuals" also keep posting this, as they think it will triple there production without any consequenses.
On every occasion on any forum I read, people quickly debunk that idea, in general not the way we do now as that is to complicated.

The basic response is you will not get triple the production without consequenses like a triple amount of units needed in return, and since not all buildings and units are aqual this would be a nerf not a gain.

As we all know who have been a bit longer in this game is you never get what you have asked for.
simple example, there has been a big push for years now with the question to get rid of the non-mandatory SS upgrades in the tournament formula to make all players equal.

Many only asked for a simple change, non mandatory researches should not count.
Well we somewhat got what we asked for since no SS research counts anymore, but what we got back is a monstrosity, as we have seen several times before now.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
@PrimroseSylvia I was describing my point of view speaking of my training, i can't speak for others of course. They will have a different point of view (either objective or subjective). Of course someone in dwarves will consider freshly 3* barrack units usefull, while 10 chapters later useless (since there are other better units and they didn't recieve any improvement for 10 whole chapters.
 

Deleted User - 84934

Guest
Please show me the many? and also show me that not several players jumped on the subject to debunk that immedeatly?

It's a common thing that keeps returning from especiialy "new" players to the game who find it strange that you cannot train at all 3 at the same time.
Some "casuals" also keep posting this, as they think it will triple there production without any consequenses.
On every occasion on any forum I read, people quickly debunk that idea, in general not the way we do now as that is to complicated.

The basic response is you will not get triple the production without consequenses like a triple amount of units needed in return, and since not all buildings and units are aqual this would be a nerf not a gain.
Won't spend the hours needed to reread everything, it was my impression when i read marindor's post that it was an answer from a many requested item. Has it been requested by new players only or "casuals" as you said? maybe.has it been debunked after? maybe too. I don't remember it that way but memory can be wrong. I just remember Kavast saying that if we get 3x queues we'll have a x3 difficulties afterwards, making it a nerf. I don't agree that it should be that way. It would be a nerf to bears from my understanding (which might be waranted). But quantities produced shouldn't be a factor in difficulty of spire and tourney. The difficulty should increase gradualy, making it harder and harder to progress. of course you'll take heavier losses and will need to ressuply in army but difficulty shouldn't be linked to this producing capacity (which would make some military AW great overall). If it was made in a way where the offset the x3 queues by increasing the demands of troops, then I'd agree with you. In that case, instead of saying the change is stupid, maybe say it could be a good change if it's NOT offset by anything. You say the same thing but in a more constructive way. Which was the aim of my rant, that people don't start to automatically call to wolves as soon as Inno says something without data or context, but try to be more constructive on it.
The fact that at the elvenar, you only want to train one type of unit doesn't make that change bad. Just makes that change irrelevant for you (which means there should be a rebalance of the units but as I said before, that should be a different topic all together).

As we all know who have been a bit longer in this game is you never get what you have asked for.
simple example, there has been a big push for years now with the question to get rid of the non-mandatory SS upgrades in the tournament formula to make all players equal.

Many only asked for a simple change, non mandatory researches should not count.
Well we somewhat got what we asked for since no SS research counts anymore, but what we got back is a monstrosity, as we have seen several times before now.
I understand the frustration on this and is the reason why people call to wolves so fast. But doing so doesn't make Inno listen more.

I also understand that if Inno was to change the balance of the tourney, they might as well do a complete overhaul of it.
They didn't manage it in a way that made beta players happy yet, maybe they will, maybe they won't, we'll see. And maybe all of what happened in the last year was in order to arrive on a certain state in order to be able to roll out what they have planned for the future. Which they should communicate on if that's the case.
 

spennyit

Well-Known Member
Inno wrote about why they introduce a new way for tournaments: " We're making these changes because we want the Tournaments to be less repetitive and easier to understand for especially newer players, while at the same time improving the difficulty calculations and adding more challenges for those Fellowships that regularly complete all 10 available Chests. We believe these adjustments will bring positive changes to the Tournaments, but also show further positive effects for the whole game, e.g. by having more balanced Goods requirements for Catering, meaning there's a lower chance that the resources you might need are hard to come by in the Trader, simply because other players don't all require these same Goods in the current Tournament anymore. Furthermore, researched (optional) Squad Size Upgrade technologies will no longer make Tournament participation more expensive. "

1) Less repetitive: Achieved, from 4 encounter to 1. Cost: no more strategy for troops. UNACCEPTABLE
2) Easier to understand: Achieved, 5 against 5. Cost: as above no known troops to prepare. UNACCEPTABLE
3) More challenge to get 10 chests: Not Achieved, since it is easier even for "low level fellowships"
4) More balanced goods requirement: Not Achieved, since cost reduction is small and they introduce high costs in terms of orcs, mana, coins, supplies
5) Optional SS Upgrades don't count anymore: Achieved. Cost: raise the overal costs/parameters/ramp. UNACCEPTABLE

Is it a fair and constructive evaluation of what we have seen till now? I think it is. They gave themselves 5 objectives, met 3 at a cost that makes the solution worse than it was and missed 2. Is it a good result? Only they can think it is.

What about:
1) Less repetitive: from 4 encounter to 1 at no cost i.e. same troop strategy as today
2) Easier to understand: 5 against 5 with today's troop ratio and strategy
3) Easier to get 1600, if they want it, but is it really needed? The 9 new chests can be seen as the added challenges, if some fellowships want them
4) Balance goods requirements: reduce catering costs (making it reasonable based on players' weekly production "average") without new resources added (orcs, mana, coins, supplies) and balancing among the T1, T2 and T3 goods (i.e. not 12k of marble, but 4k for each of the 3 T1)
5) Optional SS Upgrades don't count anymore at no cost

Do you think we would have had more than 50 pages of complaints? Of course "my" proposal would not please everybody, but ...
 
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edeba

Well-Known Member
As we all know who have been a bit longer in this game is you never get what you have asked for.
simple example, there has been a big push for years now with the question to get rid of the non-mandatory SS upgrades in the tournament formula to make all players equal.

Many only asked for a simple change, non mandatory researches should not count.
Well we somewhat got what we asked for since no SS research counts anymore, but what we got back is a monstrosity, as we have seen several times before now.
Totally agreed. I was so mistaken to hold up that when they changed the original tournament to the version just ditched as an example that they could improve and to wait and trust. I completely take it back.

I can't help but notice without doing any upgrading or provinces on my map I've jump up another place today, so I'm guess another sold off everything and left. That's probably a good strategy to make it final. It is easy to come back to a game waiting for you, but not so much when you have to rebuild everything, and when you torched your AW that you worked on for years...
 

Dony

King of Bugs
If developers really want to give out more units and their true intention is to help players without any consequences then reducing base training speed of units by 66% or increasing training speed in buildings by 200% will be more beneficial for every player in any chapter/race (instead of 3 queues). Let players train what they want and where they want, dont force them to train units they will never use or build buildings they dont have/want/need.
 

Deleted User - 88552

Guest
@Marindor I sincerely hope this deploys soon... i may have to quit now just from all the clicking (burnout)
 
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DeletedUser3289

Guest
But it can't be done without offset or it will break game balance even more...
That offset either already happened when they introduced new tourneys, or will be done later
I’d say that the UN-winnable battles bypasses all offsets.
whats the point of throwing infinite troops into death.
so don’t think there will be further offset.
 
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