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Discussion Tournament Changes (post-release)

Aeva

Well-Known Member
And what we will do with 1/3 of our army being dogs, which are almost useless past province 10?..
That is odd. I use dogs almost every week, not allways as a main source of troops but very usefull here and there and in the Spire. And I am a fighter in tournaments...
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the update @Marindor. This sounds like positive steps.

Allowing the unit production buildings to train simultaneously is huge and creates lots to think about. We will be able to have a lot more troops, but it will cost a lot more supplies to produce them, so perhaps more workshops will be needed. It doesn't necessarily solve a problem as the limiting factor may become whether fights are possible to win, rather than if we have the troops to start the battles in the first place. In my case it will mean building a Training Grounds from scratch as I do not have that building at all. Would you say that it's safe to start work on that, even though I appreciate it will take a while for the change to take effect?

I will be interested to see how much the Orc requirement is reduced in the catering options. If it is reduced a very small amount then it won't make the option any more viable.

p.s. You should definitely start a part 3 feedback thread tonight.
 

Lovec Krys

Well-Known Member
The non-shared queue also weakenes time instants used when brown bear effect is in place (use only on one queue), but increases bonus from Simia (bonus on all 3 queues).
So this doesn't mean we will train 3 times as much units (that only applies to those who don't use brown bear with time instants).

That of course is valid only if the training amount & speed isn't affected and enemy counts will not increase.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Two points:
1) Will the orc requirements for Orc units be also removed as well, since the other in game orcs requirements in the latest chapters prevents us from training them? (I haven't been able to train them despite having 9 armories (not enough orcs to train them))
2) I hope this does not mean that tournaments will get even harder.

I agree a great update would be to lift the ork requirment from the training ground units, so they actually become viable options to train.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Seems like the 3rd point is going to be a good step for balancing brown bears issue (since many of those players (including me) is skipping unit productions with boosters, what is not going to be much affected by this change)..

It indeed reduces the effect of both the brow bear and the time boosters on overall production.
Downside would be that it could really imbalance pre elemental chapter accounts.
 

DeletedUser3289

Guest
Initial feedback before going into the nuances. @Marindor
Firstly Thanks to you for providing news and devs for trying to do something.
1. 3x Troop training is nice but what’s the use when battles are not winnable? @200-250% opponent size.
2. Difficulty rise hasn’t been addressed. Wouldn’t slower difficulty rise and some reasonable cap, (say 190-200%) address the issue better than the current way of 3x training. This would still bottleneck us due to high troop losses, and not by un-winnable battles. Impossible to win makes it distasteful.
3. AW levels have not been addressed. Say a mountain hall level 30 increases goods production from 800% to 960%. ( relic boost at (1+7)x100 ) which is just 20% more in production than without. Will 30 levels of this AW have more catering increase than the goods it boosts?
4. Shouldn’t 1 week catering costs be proportional to what a city (optimised for goods) can produce in 1 week and do as many provinces to compete with battling cities. We probably wouldn’t feel the brunt until our 5 year stockpile of few to 10 million goods disappear. But very soon when the stock disappears, the steep cost rise will become evident and lead to discontent.

Post script : We’d love to be constructive, but please give us more things that we can appreciate.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
Seperating the unit production queues so multiple unit training buildings can work simultaneously. This will probably take a bit more time than the rest.
I actually think this is a horrible idea and should be postponed after all tournament changes are done, because it will create more balancing issues then it actually solves. Combat is quite different then the city building where you can build nice looking buildings with no power at all just for visual, however in combat you cant just choose nice looking unit with zero power (read: worse then best possible), it doesnt work like that, yes for people doing just first 10 provinces can help negate their autocombat loses but thats all, when you face 2x, 2,5x,3x more units, you need to place your best possible units. With this change humans will train 2x more mage units then elf or 2x more heavy melee units (read: usefull units). Yes elf can train in barracks (just for the sake of it because they can) but if units will never be used its just waste of supplies, and same goes for training grounds, unless you remove orcs requirement from those 2 semi good units. So unless your intention is rebalancing all human and elf units it wont work balancing wise, quite the opposite and i really hope you dont want to make even more competitive balancing issues then we already have, before you fix them first. And i really hope that this change wont come with 3x less units trained per barracks/MC/TG, that would be just retarded at this point. We should know all the details before this potential thing get into the game. I would rather if developers take all the time they need to make current tournament model as good as possible and not wasting time on this complex topic as balancing units, which can be done afterwards with another long discussion. Thank you.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
And i really hope that this change wont come with 3x less units trained per barracks/MC/TG, that would be just retarded at this point
I hadn't even considered that as a possibility, but now you've made me worry because that would be awful. Surely not, though, as I don't see how it could help anyone.
 

Deleted User - 81190

Guest
Initial feedback on impact of having the shared training queues (on bears and overall)

The only difference to me, with the queues being separate, is that instead of queuing them all up to wait to collect taking 34.6 hours it will only take as long as my longest queue which is 12.5 hours - so I get the same 34.8 squads in only 12.5 hours. It doesn't prevent me from using the bear after all of them are finished.
It's relative reduction of power. Let's simplify, and assume that each building can run the queue for 1 day, and produce 10K units. Right now, you'd run all 3 in 3 days to produce 30K of units. With 2x bears for 100% increase you would get 60K of units on a single feed in the same 3 days.

With simultaneous queues you'd produce 90K of units in 3 days without bears (assuming you can sustain supplies). Using same single feed 2x bears would only increase it to 30K+30K+60K = 120K. So relative improvement with the bears over 3 days went from +100% to only +33%.

It is similar if you're using timeboosters - today your timeboosters work 1:1 to realtime as there is only one queue. With those changes, it would only work to 1:3 realtime (e.g. 3 hours of timeboosts needed for boosting 1 hour of total production).

You may think that who cares about relative differences, bears still improve things and its an overall improvement for everyone. Well, thinking that base troop production increased by up to 3 times (!) for everyone in one fell swoop won't trigger some other adjustments - e.g. lower production in each building, higher requirements for troops etc - is a bit naive. Well, new tournaments already have higher troop requirements, so there is that. Not to mention 3x times supply requirements. And not to mention that now you basically are expected to utilize all 3 building units in 1:1:1 ratio. I don't know about other people, but as an elf there is only one unit that I produce in the Barracks (golems), and you only need so many of those. And not to mention that extra troop production won't help you to win unwinnable fights due to ramp up in enemy size. At all.

So as usual, something that looks appealing on the surface (moar troops!), but not exactly an amazing change so far. Not sure what this was supposed to solve. I mean, with no other adjustments (questionable) it will probably help the same early/mid players that do just a bit of tournament to recoup their losses. If and only if they can afford the supplies, which is questionable. It doesn't move the unwinnable wall at all.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
It's relative reduction of power. Let's simplify, and assume that each building can run the queue for 1 day, and produce 10K units. Right now, you'd run all 3 in 3 days to produce 30K of units. With 2x bears for 100% increase you would get 60K of units on a single feed in the same 3 days.
Is that the norm? I've never had a queue that can run longer than 8 hours.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
My thoughts about this new change :
Having 3 training queues reduces the imbalance between fighting and catering time boosters created. It's still nowhere near as the ~15+ queues of catering (several T1+T2+T3 factories + orcs), but closer.
Also, it means we'll need to level all AWs that increase troop production (Needles, Flying A, Victory S), which means 3× more AW levels for similar troop production boost. Tournament AW penalty should be rebalanced accordingly.
Finally, chapter 1-6 players don't have all the training buildings, so another thing to consider for balancing. And below chapter 13, M Camp units aren't 3*, so it adds some incentive to progress through chapters (up to chapter 14-15) if one third of the units should be from there.
 

Karvest

Well-Known Member
I considered my 7-8 hours substantial.
7-8 hours are not enough even for utilizing 8h instants, not talking about 14h ones...

Back to topic - I really dislike x3 training queue. I haven't used a single unit other than from MC in last tourneys, and see no use for them later... If I was playing humans - I'd like to train mages/cannoneers from barracks as well, but for chapter 15+ elves both barracks and training grounds can't produce anything really useful.
So that change is another nerf for already underpowered elves...
 
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ErestorX

Well-Known Member
Is that the norm? I've never had a queue that can run longer than 8 hours.

It depends on the chapter. Early <8h, mid 8h, late longer. For me it is >3d. Saves pet food for those hungry bears and allows me to build the units requiring orcs. If the unit production queues should really be separated without too much loss in production speed I would probably prefer even longer queues.
 

Dony

King of Bugs
And if anyone is wondering why for chapter 16 end tech players is squad size bigger today then last week, its because both AWs and main hall upgrade in chapter 16 are mandatory researches from today and we need all 3 of them for next chapter.
 

Pauly7

Well-Known Member
It depends on the chapter. Early <8h, mid 8h, late longer. For me it is >3d. Saves pet food for those hungry bears and allows me to build the units requiring orcs. If the unit production queues should really be separated without too much loss in production speed I would probably prefer even longer queues.
I'm late game, but never felt the need to extend my queue past 8 hrs. I know that I'd get better use out of my bears if I did, but I'm also not going to fill my city with armouries.

So for me I like the idea of independent training queues, so long as they don't introduce a troop production or cost penalty along with it. It will give me an excuse to build the Training Grounds and ramp up my Victory Springs, which is interesting, if nothing else.
 
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